1072 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Say what?  The only mages prior to the order we see are the small group the first enchanter took with him.  We see pehaps all of a dozen or so unique circle mages the entire trip (out of at least hundreds if not thousands).  There was completely calm in the streets until Meridith issued her order.  Play the game again and you will see.

-Polaris

Um, no. Everything was completely calm until the Chantry exploded in pretty red fireworks. That's when the feces hit the oscillator.

That is wrong.  Even after the Chantry exploded there was still calm.  That only changed when Meridith went fruit-loop and tried to kill all mages...and shockers a battle broke out.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

And you would actually wait on the OK from Orlais if your were in Meredith's position, while Mages, Abominations and Demons are tearing the city apart? She had to act immediately and not in two weeks when the letter from Val Royeaux arrived.

Gregoire would have waited.  Right after the Chantry had blown up, there wern't any abominations or the like running im the streets.  There was no emergency.  That only happened after the Templars tried to kill every mage in sight.  Battlefields tend to get ugly fast.  Until Meridith issued her order, there was NO emergency with regard to the circle.  There simply was not.

-Polaris

That's morality. That's got nothing to do with the issue of legality at all.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Guys,

You are missing it. When I talked with DG, I did not realize at the time that Meridith had asked and involved superior authority. That changes everything which you'd know if you'd been in a military or paramilitary organization (like the Templars clearly are).

-Polaris

And you would actually wait on the OK from Orlais if your were in Meredith's position, while Mages, Abominations and Demons are tearing the city apart? She had to act immediately and not in two weeks when the letter from Val Royeaux arrived.

Gregoire would have waited.  Right after the Chantry had blown up, there wern't any abominations or the like running im the streets.  There was no emergency.  That only happened after the Templars tried to kill every mage in sight.  Battlefields tend to get ugly fast.  Until Meridith issued her order, there was NO emergency with regard to the circle.  There simply was not.

-Polaris

What Gregoir would or would not have done is not relevant to a discussion of whether he would have had the authority to do something.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

That is wrong.  Even after the Chantry exploded there was still calm.  That only changed when Meridith went fruit-loop and tried to kill all mages...and shockers a battle broke out.

-Polaris

Excuse me? The entire city is being hit with debris (this isn't a normal explosion, the chantry material is drawn upwards before dispersing). Being an obvious magic explosion people are going to be certain a mage is behind this. There are mages in the streets and the tension was already high.

[Torax]

Also should point out the Chantry is smack down in the area right next to where all the Nobles live. You expect any of that not start a problem fast if not left unchecked? Especially if the very mages in the Circle started to act on the actions of said Apostate.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Meredith was asking for the Right of Annulment from Val Royeux before the Chantry blew up.
She was obligated to wait for a response if the circumstances from the point she made that request didn't change.
They did. The Chantry exploded and the Grand Cleric was assassinated, the city was in chaos and she is well within her authority to declare a state of emergency and invoke the Right.

Wrong.  The situation with regard to the circle had not changed.  The mages were still locked down in the gallows and were not an immediate threat to the city.  The deciding authority (the Divine) was still very much alive and still in contact.

Had Meridith not asked the Divine to intervene, then you'd be right, but she did and that changes everything.

-Polaris

The situation in the city changed.
Do you honestly think Anders had no contacts within the Circle?
First, we know he did with Karl. Secondly, Anders speaks of a "mage underground" that's been all but eliminated in Act 3 by Meredith.
How far a stretch is it for someone who's already ultra-paranoid to conclude that Anders was conspiring with agents within the Circle to assassinate the Grand Cleric? The situation then changes (to her) and thus it is legal for her to invoke the Right based on her judgement call (the legality of the situation doesn't take into account that the Knight-Commander is a fruitcake).

That is not evidence, that is supposition, and not nearly enough of it to cull the Circle. Karl is dead. The mage underground has not been proved other wise Meredith would have jumped on that evidence real quick. Anders, as much as I love the character and, oddly, what he did, is the only criminal in this situation. But I have been waiting to blow up the Chantry since DAII was first shown, and I'll be doing that for a good time

[RazorrX]

The mages in Ferelden were all sealed in the tower AND Gregior was waiting for reinforcements along with the permission. Do note that he needed more men as well.

Meredith had a city that had just had a major terrorist attack. An attack that killed not only the High Cleric, but many lay sisters and brothers, commoners, nobles, etc. An attack that was the work of an apostate. The city was about to tear itself apart and they WOULD have called for blood, innocents would have died for being suspected of using magic, etc. It was a time of high alert and crisis. Thus she was totally within her right to do what she did. This is proven in game by ALL the templars following her orders, even Cullen.

[IanPolaris]

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That is wrong.  Even after the Chantry exploded there was still calm.  That only changed when Meridith went fruit-loop and tried to kill all mages...and shockers a battle broke out.

-Polaris

Excuse me? The entire city is being hit with debris (this isn't a normal explosion, the chantry material is drawn upwards before dispersing). Being an obvious magic explosion people are going to be certain a mage is behind this. There are mages in the streets and the tension was already high.

The explosion occurred at night for one
And if you even watched the cinematic, the only things that even hit the city were the two big statues. All of the debris from the building itself dispersed for what could be miles.

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

No, he waited because he needed reinforcements and he had the tower under visible lockdown.
Given the tower's isolation he had time in his judgement to call for reinforcements and the Right.

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That is wrong.  Even after the Chantry exploded there was still calm.  That only changed when Meridith went fruit-loop and tried to kill all mages...and shockers a battle broke out.

-Polaris

Excuse me? The entire city is being hit with debris (this isn't a normal explosion, the chantry material is drawn upwards before dispersing). Being an obvious magic explosion people are going to be certain a mage is behind this. There are mages in the streets and the tension was already high.

The explosion occurred at night for one
And if you even watched the cinematic, the only things that even hit the city were the two big statues. All of the debris from the building itself dispersed for what could be miles.

Are you kidding? Do you honestly think an explosion like that would cause all debris to overshoot the city, even though we see fires and smoke in the distance?

[IanPolaris]

RazorrX wrote...

The mages in Ferelden were all sealed in the tower AND Gregior was waiting for reinforcements along with the permission. Do note that he needed more men as well.

Meredith had a city that had just had a major terrorist attack. An attack that killed not only the High Cleric, but many lay sisters and brothers, commoners, nobles, etc. An attack that was the work of an apostate. The city was about to tear itself apart and they WOULD have called for blood, innocents would have died for being suspected of using magic, etc. It was a time of high alert and crisis. Thus she was totally within her right to do what she did. This is proven in game by ALL the templars following her orders, even Cullen.

That's what KC Meridith claims, but we find out that's not true from Guard Captain Aveline (sp?).  Apparently most of the town is laying low and hoping it blows over and the guard is keeping a lid on it.  In any event, the situation with the circle HAD NOT CHANGED.  Because of that Meridith was legally obligated to wait for an answer from the Divine since she specifically requested it (had she not done so then yes, per DG, she legally would have been in the right). 

-Polaris

Edit:  If it were a contingency plan, I'd like to have seen it specifically referenced in the lore.  Most military/paramilitary organizations have specific and named contigencies.

Edit 2: The crowds would have demanded the blood of the guilty party.  He's sitting right here and Meridith completely ignores him.  Satisfy the people?  Arreset Anders and have him tried and executed in public in the most brutal manner possible.  Done.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[White_Buffalo94]

RazorrX wrote...

The mages in Ferelden were all sealed in the tower AND Gregior was waiting for reinforcements along with the permission. Do note that he needed more men as well.

Meredith had a city that had just had a major terrorist attack. An attack that killed not only the High Cleric, but many lay sisters and brothers, commoners, nobles, etc. An attack that was the work of an apostate. The city was about to tear itself apart and they WOULD have called for blood, innocents would have died for being suspected of using magic, etc. It was a time of high alert and crisis. Thus she was totally within her right to do what she did. This is proven in game by ALL the templars following her orders, even Cullen.

Cullen is a nut that is only a step or two below Meredith before the idol. He hates mages. LEt me raphrase that, he HATES mages.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

It was more dire to have all the mages, clerics and templars locked up in the Tower while he waited for a response. As opposed to rampant mages in the streets. Blood Magic everywhere and so on. KC-Greg didn't even see blood magic before until the Magi Origin when everyone's favorite whiney blood mage used it. Meanwhile abominations, demons and so on are running free in kirkwall. They were all locked up in Greg's situation. Something you are forgetting while trying to justify a loop hole in your head.

[TobiTobsen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

Greagoir has the advantage that the mages are all behind a locked door. The Kirkwall mages are all over the city and **** is hitting the fan. Meredith can't just sit around and wait for orders.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That is wrong.  Even after the Chantry exploded there was still calm.  That only changed when Meridith went fruit-loop and tried to kill all mages...and shockers a battle broke out.

-Polaris

Excuse me? The entire city is being hit with debris (this isn't a normal explosion, the chantry material is drawn upwards before dispersing). Being an obvious magic explosion people are going to be certain a mage is behind this. There are mages in the streets and the tension was already high.

The explosion occurred at night for one
And if you even watched the cinematic, the only things that even hit the city were the two big statues. All of the debris from the building itself dispersed for what could be miles.

Are you kidding? Do you honestly think an explosion like that would cause all debris to overshoot the city, even though we see fires and smoke in the distance?

Not kidding. there are mages. being attacked by templars. MAges have magic, hence it is safe to assume that they are unleashing a ****storm, which would explain the fires. There was no fire in the explosion. And yes, in the game, the debris shoots WAY beyond the city

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Not kidding. there are mages. being attacked by templars. MAges have magic, hence it is safe to assume that they are unleashing a ****storm, which would explain the fires. There was no fire in the explosion. And yes, in the game, the debris shoots WAY beyond the city

What, even during the scene where Meredith is declaring the Right?
So we either have a magic explosion raining fire on citizens, or mages fighting in the streets before Meredith invokes the right, giving her more reason to.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

Oh no, not at all.

Whether someone with the authority to do something does it or not has nothing to do with whether they have the authority.  That seems clear.

Gregoir did not have the authority to do anything in the situaltion he found himself in.  Had he the authority, whether he chose to use it does not alter that he COULD have used it. 

Again, the situation did change.  The Templars charge is not just to police the Circle, but to find apostates.  One of those apostates just destroyed the Chantry.

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

[White_Buffalo94]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

It was more dire to have all the mages, clerics and templars locked up in the Tower while he waited for a response. As opposed to rampant mages in the streets. Blood Magic everywhere and so on. KC-Greg didn't even see blood magic before until the Magi Origin when everyone's favorite whiney blood mage used it. Meanwhile abominations, demons and so on are running free in kirkwall. They were all locked up in Greg's situation. Something you are forgetting while trying to justify a loop hole in your head.

Mages only used the blood magic, or any magic whatsoever, when KC orders her tempalrs to kill them all. They were not rampant until after that order, and even so, the tempalrs were just as rampant, blindly following a nut job. Did any of her subordinates even ask about the eerie sword with a skull mounted to it? Shouldn't it have been a bit more holy looking?

[IanPolaris]

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

Greagoir has the advantage that the mages are all behind a locked door. The Kirkwall mages are all over the city and **** is hitting the fan. Meredith can't just sit around and wait for orders.

Actually yes she can.  There is no rioting in the street, no abominations, only Orisino and a relatively small number of mages with him (a couple dozen tops) as an escort.  All that happens AFTER Meridith declares war, not before.  You can not use that as evidence.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...
That's what KC Meridith claims, but we find out that's not true from Guard Captain Aveline (sp?).  Apparently most of the town is laying low and hoping it blows over and the guard is keeping a lid on it.  In any event, the situation with the circle HAD NOT CHANGED.  Because of that Meridith was legally obligated to wait for an answer from the Divine since she specifically requested it (had she not done so then yes, per DG, she legally would have been in the right). 

-Polaris

Edit:  If it were a contingency plan, I'd like to have seen it specifically referenced in the lore.  Most military/paramilitary organizations have specific and named contigencies.

Edit 2: The crowds would have demanded the blood of the guilty party.  He's sitting right here and Meridith completely ignores him.  Satisfy the people?  Arreset Anders and have him tried and executed in public in the most brutal manner possible.  Done.

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

[Torax]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

It was more dire to have all the mages, clerics and templars locked up in the Tower while he waited for a response. As opposed to rampant mages in the streets. Blood Magic everywhere and so on. KC-Greg didn't even see blood magic before until the Magi Origin when everyone's favorite whiney blood mage used it. Meanwhile abominations, demons and so on are running free in kirkwall. They were all locked up in Greg's situation. Something you are forgetting while trying to justify a loop hole in your head.

Mages only used the blood magic, or any magic whatsoever, when KC orders her tempalrs to kill them all. They were not rampant until after that order, and even so, the tempalrs were just as rampant, blindly following a nut job. Did any of her subordinates even ask about the eerie sword with a skull mounted to it? Shouldn't it have been a bit more holy looking?

Don't even change the subject. Point being he said it was more dire for Greg who had the situation more contained. It was NOT contained ever in Kirkwall. All the blood mages summoning things on Hawke alone is proof of that.

[Peer of the Empire]

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Not kidding. there are mages. being attacked by templars. MAges have magic, hence it is safe to assume that they are unleashing a ****storm, which would explain the fires. There was no fire in the explosion. And yes, in the game, the debris shoots WAY beyond the city

What, even during the scene where Meredith is declaring the Right?
So we either have a magic explosion raining fire on citizens, or mages fighting in the streets before Meredith invokes the right, giving her more reason to.

No doubt some templars may be acting accordingly by attacking mages before KC even issues the order. She can't have possibly told every templar in Kirkwall of the situation. Or maybe the explosion did create a bit of fire. However, I never saw a spark of flame in the explosion