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[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

then I stand corrected and apologize. I'd like to see a video of it though if possible.

Here.

Edit: To me it doesn't look like you are attacked because Ketojan spoke to you (which would be really odd considering everyone in the area, including the qunari, also heard him speak, and it was the qunari who allowed him to speak) but because you were in the presence of an unleashed saarebas and there was no way to tell if he'd corrupted you, as he himself was corrupted by being outside his karataam.

thanks for the link. I agree with you. Arvaarad says "There is no way to know what demon may have ridden his words" almost as if a corrupted Saarebas casted a spell secretly while he was talking to Hawke, and in turn placed a demon inside of him. I think that's what you meant anyway.

I disagree to one part. The Qunari believe that other species are inferior. For example they do not get altered by the Gas not because their species but because they are so certain of themselves that it cannot drive them crazy. They would possibly believe that they alone are immune to the words of a Saarebas. Including the grumbles.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...


In particular quotes.

"Saarebas is his role and his name, as you understand it. It is the accusation and acknowledgement of being a mage."

That's pretty much their Wesley equivalent of "Apostate! The Order Dictates!" lol

"The power that he has, that all Saarebas have, draws from chaos and demons. They can never be in control."

Qunari are idiots on this one sadly. Magic doesn't stem from demons. Chaos maybe, but it's just a gift that you're born with.

"We leash Saarebas because they are dangerous and contagious. Not even your templars fully grasp that threat."

Saarebas says "Basvaarad, you led well. I thank your intent. Panahedon, as you find the Qun."

He is killed by Avaarad who then says,

"You should be honored by this action, Basra. It is his last" 

Followed by

"He lost his lead-- the risk of corruption was certain. But he has owned his death by honoring you. He knows the Qun once more. As will you."

You can reply diplomatically.

"You got what you wanted. Why try to fight me now?"

Which he then says

"An uncollared Saarebas spoke to you. You were already exposed. but there's no way to know what demon may have ridden his words. Killing you is demanded. But the respect of Saarebas has granted honor. Be grateful."

Whole banter starts here after turning him.

It really doesn't seem like you're being attacked though for him just speaking. It seems more that you're being attacked because he was away from his Kaaretam (or whatever), and he may have fallen prey to a demon. I think had Saarebas not spoke they would've killed you anyway because of that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:04 .

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

then I stand corrected and apologize. I'd like to see a video of it though if possible.

Here.

Edit: To me it doesn't look like you are attacked because Ketojan spoke to you (which would be really odd considering everyone in the area, including the qunari, also heard him speak, and it was the qunari who allowed him to speak) but because you were in the presence of an unleashed saarebas and there was no way to tell if he'd corrupted you, as he himself was corrupted by being outside his karataam.

thanks for the link. I agree with you. Arvaarad says "There is no way to know what demon may have ridden his words" almost as if a corrupted Saarebas casted a spell secretly while he was talking to Hawke, and in turn placed a demon inside of him. I think that's what you meant anyway.

I disagree to one part. The Qunari believe that other species are inferior. For example they do not get altered by the Gas not because their species but because they are so certain of themselves that it cannot drive them crazy. They would possibly believe that they alone are immune to the words of a Saarebas. Including the grumbles.

except Qunari means "People of the Qun", which refers to all humans, elves, dwarves, and kossith (which is what Sten and the others are actually called).

So they don't see other species as inferior. They see non-Qun people as inferior.

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...


In particular quotes.

"Saarebas is his role and his name, as you understand it. It is the accusation and acknowledgement of being a mage."

That's pretty much their Wesley equivalent of "Apostate! The Order Dictates!" lol

"The power that he has, that all Saarebas have, draws from chaos and demons. They can never be in control."

Qunari are idiots on this one sadly. Magic doesn't stem from demons. Chaos maybe, but it's just a gift and a curse that you're born with.

"We leash Saarebas because they are dangerous and contagious. Not even your templars fully grasp that threat."

Saarebas says "Basvaarad, you led well. I thank your intent. Panahedon, as you find the Qun."

He is killed by Avaarad who then says,

"You should be honored by this action, Basra. It is his last" 

Followed by

"He lost his lead-- the risk of corruption was certain. But he has owned his death by honoring you. He knows the Qun once more. As will you."

You can reply diplomatically.

"You got what you wanted. Why try to fight me now?"

Which he then says

"An uncollared Saarebas spoke to you. You were already exposed. but there's no way to know what demon may have ridden his words. Killing you is demanded. But the respect of Saarebas has granted honor. Be grateful."

Whole banter starts here after turning him.

It really doesn't seem like you're being attacked though for him just speaking. It seems more that you're being attacked because he was away from his Kaaretam (or whatever), and he may have fallen prey to a demon. I think had Saarebas not spoke they would've killed you anyway because of that.

Do you still disregard the rest. Like for example the name being an Accusation? The thought that "they can never be in control." and so on. In what part of this do you think they are a person?

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...


Do you still disregard the rest. Like for example the name being an Accusation? The thought that "they can never be in control." and so on. In what part of this do you think they are a person?

By electing to give Hawke an honorable death because Saarebas honored you, they value him as a person. If they didn't, they wouldn't have cared what he said.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...


Do you still disregard the rest. Like for example the name being an Accusation? The thought that "they can never be in control." and so on. In what part of this do you think they are a person?

By electing to give Hawke an honorable death because Saarebas honored you, they value him as a person. If they didn't, they wouldn't have cared what he said.

Yet Avaarad talks about Saarebas as also being something to be leashed and caged. Something that cannot control it'self.

This is the sort of thing Sten thought. Though Sten refered to them more as beasts to have their mouths tied shut. Being a member of the Qun doesn't at the same time make them not Beasts. You are only speculating such. They still are leashed and not trusted even in the Qun. It's why they have a leash and a master. Don't speculate that you think they are equal. The are only equal to other Saarebas most likely. Kind of like a mage is only equal to another mage.

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...


Do you still disregard the rest. Like for example the name being an Accusation? The thought that "they can never be in control." and so on. In what part of this do you think they are a person?

By electing to give Hawke an honorable death because Saarebas honored you, they value him as a person. If they didn't, they wouldn't have cared what he said.

Yet Avaarad talks about Saarebas as also being something to be leashed and caged. Something that cannot control it'self.

This is the sort of thing Sten thought. Though Sten refered to them more as beasts to have their mouths tied shut. Being a member of the Qun doesn't at the same time make them not Beasts. You are only speculating such. They still are leashed and not trusted even in the Qun. It's why they have a leash and a master. Don't speculate that you think they are equal. The are only equal to other Saarebas most likely. Kind of like a mage is only equal to another mage.

Just the same you're speculating that just because they are leashed they are seen as less than human. Don't speculate that they aren't equal.

I'm not expecting you to change your views. I'm just trying to show you why I think they are equal. Please don't try to make me change my view to yours.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok, I lol'd at your last sentence. I believe certain Templar command posts and certain Chantry people do not treat the mages as people. Some citizens of Thedas don't given the eavesdropping of the gossips in various cities/villages when they talk about mages.

I agree with this. Some of the behaviour and attitude towards mages is abhorrent.

I also believe the current system of monitoring mages does not work in treating them as people, despite the claims that they do.

I think that the current system needs a lot of improvement, that's for sure. There is corruption and those who exploit their position/power amidst both the templars AND the mages. I don't agree that the Harrowing is necessary, or that being made Tranquil is a good solution to any but the most demented and dangerous of mages.

There is a lot of perceived/contrived religious hate (or at least perception that mages are a 'servant class') based on Andrastian scripture--even if this interpretation of the Maker's Word may be incorrect, it's what the common people hold to.

There is also a lot of fear for what mages can do--and this need not be based purely on religion. All you really need to develop fear is to see something horrible happen, be it a snake bite, getting kicked by a horse, being raped, or having your head set on fire.

Plus, I have to say it, Dark Age peasants loved a good ol' stoning/burning. It's a mage. Burn it! I don't think this has anything to do with not seeing mages as people, but to do with the Common Man being...common. Violent. Cruel. Delighting in hurting someone they don't like (whether or not they're a mage).

Despite the Circle system not being perfect, despite there being prejudice against mages and corruption on both sides, I don't believe mages are always treated badly--and I don't believe templars are meant to exploit their position as guardians. Greagoir and Irving alone are proof that mutual respect CAN exist between templar and mage. Even Cullen says near the end he believes it's the duty of templars to protect mages, not eradicate them.

I believe that the Qunari, while doing some very abhorrent things to the mages to ensure security, afterwards treat them as people unless the Qun requires that the Qunari act. This is a group bound by the philosophy of Koslun, so it's understandable they will act within those rules or whatever. Understandable, not something to be condoned.

I believe there's too much brainwashing involved in being indoctrinated into the Qun. You're free to act within your given role, but go beyond that and you die, refuse to submit to your role and you die (or go into forced labour until you die). The way they treat mages is inhumane, and as far as we know fully endorsed and sanctioned by the Qun.

At least the Chant of Light doesn't say 'Templars are allowed to rape mages.' (The devs can correct me on that if I'm wrong )

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...


Do you still disregard the rest. Like for example the name being an Accusation? The thought that "they can never be in control." and so on. In what part of this do you think they are a person?

By electing to give Hawke an honorable death because Saarebas honored you, they value him as a person. If they didn't, they wouldn't have cared what he said.

Yet Avaarad talks about Saarebas as also being something to be leashed and caged. Something that cannot control it'self.

This is the sort of thing Sten thought. Though Sten refered to them more as beasts to have their mouths tied shut. Being a member of the Qun doesn't at the same time make them not Beasts. You are only speculating such. They still are leashed and not trusted even in the Qun. It's why they have a leash and a master. Don't speculate that you think they are equal. The are only equal to other Saarebas most likely. Kind of like a mage is only equal to another mage.

Just the same you're speculating that just because they are leashed they are seen as less than human. Don't speculate that they aren't equal.

I'm not expecting you to change your views. I'm just trying to show you why I think they are equal. Please don't try to make me change my view to yours.

I'm only stating that it makes stronger logic that equality even in the Qun is not as even as you think. It's safer to say they are only equal to other Saarebas than to assume they for example as equal to the ones holding their Leash. That I highly doubt would ever be true.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

then I stand corrected and apologize. I'd like to see a video of it though if possible.

Here.

Edit: To me it doesn't look like you are attacked because Ketojan spoke to you (which would be really odd considering everyone in the area, including the qunari, also heard him speak, and it was the qunari who allowed him to speak) but because you were in the presence of an unleashed saarebas and there was no way to tell if he'd corrupted you, as he himself was corrupted by being outside his karataam.

thanks for the link. I agree with you. Arvaarad says "There is no way to know what demon may have ridden his words" almost as if a corrupted Saarebas casted a spell secretly while he was talking to Hawke, and in turn placed a demon inside of him. I think that's what you meant anyway.

I disagree to one part. The Qunari believe that other species are inferior. For example they do not get altered by the Gas not because their species but because they are so certain of themselves that it cannot drive them crazy. They would possibly believe that they alone are immune to the words of a Saarebas. Including the grumbles.

Hmm...that's an interesting idea, Torax. You might be correct there. Unless we get dev confirmation we probably won't know though...

Anyway...I'm off to get some food.

[TEWR]

I think that the current system needs a lot of improvement, that's for sure. There is corruption and those who exploit their position/power amidst both the templars AND the mages. I don't agree that the Harrowing is necessary, or that being made Tranquil is a good solution to any but the most demented and dangerous of mages.

If mages were allowed to do research on things magical, even limited research, they might uncover something. Instead, they are restricted by Chantry doctrine. It seems that only apostates and Avernus have actually succeeded in any form of research.

There is a lot of perceived/contrived religious hate (or at least perception that mages are a 'servant class') based on Andrastian scripture--even if this interpretation of the Maker's Word may be incorrect, it's what the common people hold to.

And that's one of the main problems. The Chantry believes their interpretation of Andraste's teachings is correct in what she meant. Only Andraste knew what she meant. Maybe the Chantry got it right, but to say "This is what Andraste meant" is idiotic. If they said, "We believe this to be what she meant, because we have nothing else to go on" than I wouldn't despise the chantry as much. I'd still despise them, but it would be a little less.

There is also a lot of fear for what mages can do--and this need not be based purely on religion. All you really need to develop fear is to see something horrible happen, be it a snake bite, getting kicked by a horse, being raped, or having your head set on fire.

Plus, I have to say it, Dark Age peasants loved a good ol' stoning/burning. It's a mage. Burn it! I don't think this has anything to do with not seeing mages as people, but to do with the Common Man being...common. Violent. Cruel. Delighting in hurting someone they don't like (whether or not they're a mage).

Kill it with fire! Seriously though...

True enough, it's like the old Salem Witch trials. Or better yet, the Monty Python version of a witch trial in the Search for the Holy Grail. They wanted the "witch" dead because they found it fun. I love the logic behind those old things. "If she dies, she's not a witch. If she lives, she's a witch."

Despite the Circle system not being perfect, despite there being prejudice against mages and corruption on both sides, I don't believe mages are always treated badly--and I don't believe templars are meant to exploit their position as guardians. Greagoir and Irving alone are proof that mutual respect CAN exist between templar and mage. Even Cullen says near the end he believes it's the duty of templars to protect mages, not eradicate them.

And honestly, if the Circles were at the very least like the Ferelden one, things would be better. Gregoir and Irving may not be the best of friends, but they respect each other enough to see reason. Broken Circle was proof enough of that. Granted Anders must've known that some Ferelden Templars abused their power, because he hadn't been in Kirkwall long enough to know that it was a sole Kirkwall thing.

It's why I think Anders is justified though in doing what he did. At the very least the Circles and the Chantry will change for the better. Or mages will be free. Whether that freedom leads to the rise of another Imperium is anyone's guess (especially broody elves with glowing tattoos)

I believe there's too much brainwashing involved in being indoctrinated into the Qun. You're free to act within your given role, but go beyond that and you die, refuse to submit to your role and you die (or go into forced labour until you die). The way they treat mages is inhumane, and as far as we know fully endorsed and sanctioned by the Qun.

oh they definitely brainwash. Rather forcefully too. Qunari and the Chantry are too collective hive mind like.... like the Borg. Both of them believe in this "Choose our way or die!".

To quote Cliff Fittir from Star Ocean, "You can live or you can die. That's called coercion you know."

Still, the Qunari (imo) treat mages after the whole mouth-sewing as equals and people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 09:29 .

[Torax]

One thing that is definitely true is by not doing things like letting them study demons/spirits more to understand and defend beyond the Harrowing would probably help overall. Just like study of blood magic with a focus of defense would help overall. But the Chantry may forbid these things unless maybe just for the Enchanters. That I am not sure. There were Blood Magic Books that Irving had to take out of the Library in the Tower.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 09:29 .

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

One thing that is definitely true is by not doing things like letting them study demons/spirits more to understand and defend beyond the Harrowing would probably help overall. Just like study of blood magic with a focus of defense would help overall. But the Chantry may forbid these things unless maybe just for the Enchanters. That I am not sure. There were Blood Magic Books that Irving had to take out of the Library in the Tower.

He took them out because Jowan got a hold of them and that's how Jowan ended up learning Blood Magic.

Avernus said it best. "Only under the Wardens can true magical research exist."

I don't condone Avernus' methods prior to you letting him live and continuing ethically, but in the end it will help the Wardens defeat the Darkspawn, who are in essence a very tainted form of magic.*

*by that I don't mean I believe the whole Magisters in the Golden City schtick.

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

One thing that is definitely true is by not doing things like letting them study demons/spirits more to understand and defend beyond the Harrowing would probably help overall. Just like study of blood magic with a focus of defense would help overall. But the Chantry may forbid these things unless maybe just for the Enchanters. That I am not sure. There were Blood Magic Books that Irving had to take out of the Library in the Tower.

He took them out because Jowan got a hold of them and that's how Jowan ended up learning Blood Magic.

Avernus said it best. "Only under the Wardens can true magical research exist."

I don't condone Avernus' methods prior to you letting him live and continuing ethically, but in the end it will help the Wardens defeat the Darkspawn, who are in essence a very tainted form of magic.*

*by that I don't mean I believe the whole Magisters in the Golden City schtick.

Not stating about the books as to why they were taken out of the library. Just stating that the books existed in the first place.

[1Nosphorus1]

Torax wrote...
Not stating about the books as to why they were taken out of the library. Just stating that the books existed in the first place.

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, therefore I can understand why some circles would keep books on the subject, lest all magic one day be forgotton to abide the chantry laws (Shapeshifting/Arcane Warrior are also forgotten forms of magic)

[TEWR]

Torax wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Torax wrote...

One thing that is definitely true is by not doing things like letting them study demons/spirits more to understand and defend beyond the Harrowing would probably help overall. Just like study of blood magic with a focus of defense would help overall. But the Chantry may forbid these things unless maybe just for the Enchanters. That I am not sure. There were Blood Magic Books that Irving had to take out of the Library in the Tower.

He took them out because Jowan got a hold of them and that's how Jowan ended up learning Blood Magic.

Avernus said it best. "Only under the Wardens can true magical research exist."

I don't condone Avernus' methods prior to you letting him live and continuing ethically, but in the end it will help the Wardens defeat the Darkspawn, who are in essence a very tainted form of magic.*

*by that I don't mean I believe the whole Magisters in the Golden City schtick.

Not stating about the books as to why they were taken out of the library. Just stating that the books existed in the first place.

Oh. Yeah I don't even know. The Chantry and Circle say "Now don't trust demons! And don't you use Blood Magic!" yet they keep books on the subject within the reach of the apprentices.

That whole idiotic stream of logic just defeats the whole point.

You can teach a man that bombs are bad without giving him a detailed blueprint of how to make said bomb.

[Torax]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Torax wrote...
Not stating about the books as to why they were taken out of the library. Just stating that the books existed in the first place.

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, therefore I can understand why some circles would keep books on the subject, lest all magic one day be forgotton to abide the chantry laws (Shapeshifting/Arcane Warrior are also forgotten forms of magic)

Well aware. Just an amusing thought that the Chantry who seems to be of the stance that Blood Magic is sin and of the Demons had books on the subject. Though odds are books of that nature may have been left overs of when Tevinter used that Tower originally.

[TEWR]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Torax wrote...
Not stating about the books as to why they were taken out of the library. Just stating that the books existed in the first place.

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, therefore I can understand why some circles would keep books on the subject, lest all magic one day be forgotton to abide the chantry laws (Shapeshifting/Arcane Warrior are also forgotten forms of magic)

I believe it isn't inherently evil either. But the Chantry says otherwise.

[1Nosphorus1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I believe it isn't inherently evil either. But the Chantry says otherwise.

Chantry lies to subjugate the mages

In all honesty, I don't think the chantry had any idea they were there or what information could've actually been learnt from said books (Templars probably have a hard time reading with that helmet), in my opinion Irving shat a brick and decided it was best for the books to be hidden away in his office so that apprentices wouldn't be able to access them in the library (like Jowan did) and Greigor wouldn't of cared the source of Blood Magic as long as the mage got the punishment he deserved.

[TEWR]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Chantry lies to subjugate the mages .

Rotten bastards...

it's sadly true how those are just lies.

In all honesty, I don't think the chantry had any idea they were there or what information could've actually been learnt from said books (Templars probably have a hard time reading with that helmet), in my opinion Irving shat a brick and decided it was best for the books to be hidden away in his office so that apprentices wouldn't be able to access them in the library (like Jowan did) and Greigor wouldn't of cared the source of Blood Magic as long as the mage got the punishment he deserved.

I lol'd at the templar helmet bit. It is possible that they were there without anyone knowing, but you think someone would've stumbled across them...

Mage: Ok let's see..... B..... B... where is that damn book? Balms For The Rash That Doesn't Quit.... Borras the Mage's Exploits.... Banana Recipes: 1001 & Counting!..... Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Cut Your Wrists.... Bestiary Lore.... Wait WHAT?! Blood Magic and You?!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on for just one damn minute. Did I a few pages back actually read that someone suggested that the Qunari was adherents of the idea of "basic human rights"?

[1Nosphorus1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I lol'd at the templar helmet bit. It is possible that they were there without anyone knowing, but you think someone would've stumbled across them...

Mage: Ok let's see..... B..... B... where is that damn book? Balms For The Rash That Doesn't Quit.... Borras the Mage's Exploits.... Banana Recipes: 1001 & Counting!..... Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Cut Your Wrists.... Bestiary Lore.... Wait WHAT?! Blood Magic and You?!

Exactly, I think the books were there so that knowledge of blood magic and how it's used isn't exactly a bad thing, mages and templars should know what could happen and what to expect from someone using it.

It wasn't until Jowan started going all emo about his best friend having a harrowing who hadn't been there as long as he has that Irving thought that the knowledge should be kept locked away in his rooms.

Heck Flemeth's supposed grimoire was in his room under lock and key, imagine if that had been left on the shelf for the apprentices or even Jowan to read

I'm not even sure what this topic is about anymore, I'm so lost! Someone remind me!

[Reiella]

Really to me, it comes off the same as the meta-storyline for X-Men, only the Sentinels are supposed to have some airs of sympathy.

[CaimDark]

Wow, 41 pages in 3 days??? Unless the discussion has currently nothing to do with the original topic, as tends to be the natural progression of long threads, I really don't see what there is to discuss so much. The way I see the legality of the rite is the one thing that really leaves no room for interpretation. The Grand Cleric died, final authority went to the knight commander, end of story. I hated that Meredith did that, as far as I am concerned it was genocide pure and simple, but there is really no question that it was perfectly legal according to Chantry law. Which only makes it even more horrible!

[Torax]

CaimDark wrote...

Wow, 41 pages in 3 days??? Unless the discussion has currently nothing to do with the original topic, as tends to be the natural progression of long threads, I really don't see what there is to discuss so much. The way I see the legality of the rite is the one thing that really leaves no room for interpretation. The Grand Cleric died, final authority went to the knight commander, end of story. I hated that Meredith did that, as far as I am concerned it was genocide pure and simple, but there is really no question that it was perfectly legal according to Chantry law. Which only makes it even more horrible!

The original post was voided by the first response from Gaider. Just the O.P. then tried to read more into it. Past that lots of arguments by various people. Mostly a bunch who didn't agree about things that in the end have no consequence on the actual story. Just some people seem to think of Mages as this down trodden people that need equal rights and to be free from the Chantry and the Circle. Oh yeah Meredith is a psycho hose beast.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 01:26 .