1072 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

  Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

At this point, I really need to ask how you define human rights.

I mean, are you seriously arguing that mages in Circles are denied basic rights (a concept I still do not believe exists in Thedas) but that Qunari mages are allowed these rights?


Again, if you are going to define "basic human (or sentient) rights" differently depending on the class of the person at issue, or where they come from, or what they do, you are NOT defining a system of "basic human (sentient person) rights".  You are defining the rights of the privilidged. 

[Torax]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And in virtually no society - save perhaps those of Tevinter and Dalish elves - do they include mages among those who have rights.

  Even the Qunari respect the rights and honor of Sarabas (talk to the Arishok afterwards) although the Qun define human rights in a very alien manner from everyone else.

At this point, I really need to ask how you define human rights.

I mean, are you seriously arguing that mages in Circles are denied basic rights (a concept I still do not believe exists in Thedas) but that Qunari mages are allowed these rights?


Again, if you are going to define "basic human (or sentient) rights" differently depending on the class of the person at issue, or where they come from, or what they do, you are NOT defining a system of "basic human (sentient person) rights".  You are defining the rights of the privilidged. 

No, instead it's basically trying to warp things to suit an argument while it not necessarily making sense to others around them.

[LobselVith8]

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

If Meredith went after Anders, then you would have a point, but instead she ordered the death of the entire Circle of Magi for something an apostate did.

[1Nosphorus1]

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in another neighbourhood, I will then break into the house and shoot everyone in there, including children.

That is what happened here...

Fix'd

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

They don't really regard anyone as a person because individuality has no meaning.  So for them, human rights are whatever the Qun dictates, and that's fine with you?  Then is your only beef with the Chantry that it allows inequality?  If you think that rigid equality is all that matters, well... anaan esaam Qun!  I think you ought to join up. 

You're also using the extremist Andrastians to define all Andrastians.  So, as I said above, bending the facts to suit your argument.  And you do really like to argue, bro.

I'm not bending anything and I definately don't condone the Qun or what they do with mages, but mages are treated with respect for their role in the Qun and thus by their own standards (which applies to all Qunari) Sarabas are treated with respect and as human beings.  For the most part (see Cullen) the Chantry doesn't.

-Polaris

What is "for the most part"?  Because most Andrastians believe that Circles are necessary?  You're using Cullen to represent every Andrastian?

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in the house. I no longer have to wait for the warrant.

That is what happened here...

If Meredith went after Anders, then you would have a point, but instead she ordered the death of the entire Circle of Magi for something an apostate did.

The interesting thing is that Meredith leaves it up to Hawke whether Anders gets punished at all. While Hawke's disagreement with the Annullment doesn't interest anyone. So Hawke gets to judge the culprit, but innocents have to die anyway. Right.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[Privateerkev]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in another neighbourhood, I will then break into the house and shoot everyone in there, including children.

That is what happened here...

Fix'd

BUT I DIDN"T SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!! *BURBLEGURBLEGARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR*

[TEWR]

Privateerkev wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

Say I am a cop waiting outside a house for a warrant to arrive. While waiting, a gun goes off in another neighbourhood, I will then break into the house and shoot everyone in there, including children.

That is what happened here...

Fix'd

BUT I DID SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!! *BURBLEGURBLEGARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR*

Fix'd

[PantheraOnca]

Oh you guys.

Maybe I'm reading in to it, but the fact that the saarebas respects hawke for what he did seems to increase the avaraad's regard for him significantly. this doesn't seem to be the reaction of someone who keeps "dangerous things" on a leash. Or at least not one who hates said things, which makes me think there are at least a range of perspecitve inside the Qun re: saarebas other than "they's aints peeplez"

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wether or not you view someone as "people" has NOTHING to do with basic human rights. None what so ever. Basic human rights is the fact that everyone, no matter who, no matter where from, no matter who their parents were, all have the same rights. Qunari are certainly NOT believers of that.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

Oh you really ended the argument there!

If you're trying to explain to us that David Gaider has authority over his own story, then that's pretty obvious to most people here.

If you're saying David Gaider is unable to drastically change the interpretation of what was established through previous games ( some may call it a 'retcon' ) within new iterations based on technicalities, then Dragon Age 2 is living proof that you're dead wrong.

[Leoroc]

I blame X-Men for everyone siding with the Mages over the Templars.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not you view someone as "people" has NOTHING to do with basic human rights. None what so ever. Basic human rights is the fact that everyone, no matter who, no matter where from, no matter who their parents were, all have the same rights. Qunari are certainly NOT believers of that.

The Qunari believe that everyone, no matter where from, no matter who their parents were, all have the same rights.  None.

[Torax]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Torax wrote...

Polaris while I understand your attempt at making it a more illegal or wrong act. I think there is one key thing you are forgetting in that brain of your's.

Gaider's Opinion > Your's

If he says she had the Right to do it, then she had the right to do it.

Oh you really ended the argument there!

If you're trying to explain to us that David Gaider has authority over his own story, then that's pretty obvious to most people here.

If you're saying David Gaider is unable to drastically change the interpretation of what was established through previous games ( some may call it a 'retcon' ) within new iterations based on technicalities, then Dragon Age 2 is living proof that you're dead wrong.

Was in Context of Gaider just stating that once the Chantry was blown up and the Grand Cleric dead with no known Successor to turn to. That Meredith at that time abused what she was then granted. The ability of enacting the Right of Annulment . While morally wrong. It's what she wanted the entire time. Gaider saying that she had the Right to do it at that moment. Makes it what it is. No matter what IanPolaris was trying to do he can't change that.

Modifié par Torax, 10 avril 2011 - 08:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not you view someone as "people" has NOTHING to do with basic human rights. None what so ever. Basic human rights is the fact that everyone, no matter who, no matter where from, no matter who their parents were, all have the same rights. Qunari are certainly NOT believers of that.

The Qunari believe that everyone, no matter where from, no matter who their parents were, all have the same rights.  None.

Ba-dum-tsch

[PantheraOnca]

Leoroc wrote...

I blame X-Men for everyone siding with the Mages over the Templars.

When i started reading the debates, i was basically like "guys. xmen. did you side with the sentinels? i didn't think... maybe some of these people did."

[barryl89]

Just played through the broken circle there a while ago.

Greagoir really seems to care more about getting reinforcements than the authority to annul the circle. If he had the manpower and the grand cleric in denerim was dead he would have annulled the crap out of the tower right there and then. He even lets the Warden go in to 'deal with them'.

He is obviously convinced otherwise by Irving being alive.
In DA2 Orsino turns into a Harvester, do you think Greagoir (or any KC) would have stopped the rite if he saw a man he respected turn into that.

Once Orsino turned, the Rite should have been enacted despite Meridith.

[nos_astra]

Imagine Irving had turned into a Harvester, Gregoir would have been delighted. I can see him throwing a party.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[1Nosphorus1]

klarabella wrote...

Imagine Irving had turned into a Harvester, Gregoir would have been delighted. I can see him throwing a party.

To be honest I think outside of work (If that even happens) they're the bestest of buds and take turns in buying each other's rounds.

I think that the Right or Rite should have some sort of code of conduct at least, if it's meant to be used if the circle is "irredeemable" according to the codexes we have, and she uses because of an apostate that isn't tied to the circle at all and even hands himself in freely, then surely any mean Knight Commander could kill off the Grand Cleric and wipe out the circle "for the lols".

There should be a list of fufillments before the right/rite should be used, especially when dealing with people (or atleast humanoid life capable of freewill bar possession).

[EmperorSahlertz]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Imagine Irving had turned into a Harvester, Gregoir would have been delighted. I can see him throwing a party.

To be honest I think outside of work (If that even happens) they're the bestest of buds and take turns in buying each other's rounds.

I think that the Right or Rite should have some sort of code of conduct at least, if it's meant to be used if the circle is "irredeemable" according to the codexes we have, and she uses because of an apostate that isn't tied to the circle at all and even hands himself in freely, then surely any mean Knight Commander could kill off the Grand Cleric and wipe out the circle "for the lols".

There should be a list of fufillments before the right/rite should be used, especially when dealing with people (or atleast humanoid life capable of freewill bar possession).

Greagoir does seem to care about Irving indeed.

You don't think that if a Knight-Commander killed a Grand CLeric and then immediately called an annulment that the Divine would notice?
About the code of conduct: The problem is, how do you identify the Blood Mage from the regular mage? How do you identify which of the mages has been possessed? Letting a single abomination or Blood Mage go can have dire consequences. It is better to carpet bomb the circle then let the Maker sort them out.
Also, there is a code of conduct, sorta. If the Knight-Commander wishes it, he can call off the Annulment, like Greagoir did, when he learned Irving was alive.

[1Nosphorus1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Greagoir does seem to care about Irving indeed.

You don't think that if a Knight-Commander killed a Grand CLeric and then immediately called an annulment that the Divine would notice?
About the code of conduct: The problem is, how do you identify the Blood Mage from the regular mage? How do you identify which of the mages has been possessed? Letting a single abomination or Blood Mage go can have dire consequences. It is better to carpet bomb the circle then let the Maker sort them out.
Also, there is a code of conduct, sorta. If the Knight-Commander wishes it, he can call off the Annulment, like Greagoir did, when he learned Irving was alive.

It works both ways, how can a Templar know something bad has happened, even in a harrowing? There must be some sort of sixth sense to that sort of thing.

and by code of conduct I meant that a sort of checklist of how it should be used for instance:

1) Mages becoming more vocal+rioting including first enchanter
2) More and more examples of mages being accused of blood magic
3) Actual encounters with abominations

etc etc

[EmperorSahlertz]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Greagoir does seem to care about Irving indeed.

You don't think that if a Knight-Commander killed a Grand CLeric and then immediately called an annulment that the Divine would notice?
About the code of conduct: The problem is, how do you identify the Blood Mage from the regular mage? How do you identify which of the mages has been possessed? Letting a single abomination or Blood Mage go can have dire consequences. It is better to carpet bomb the circle then let the Maker sort them out.
Also, there is a code of conduct, sorta. If the Knight-Commander wishes it, he can call off the Annulment, like Greagoir did, when he learned Irving was alive.

It works both ways, how can a Templar know something bad has happened, even in a harrowing? There must be some sort of sixth sense to that sort of thing.

When the apprentice wakes up and starts killing people, is a good indicator. Otherwise it is when the mage is taking too long.

1Nosphorus1 wrote...
and by code of conduct I meant that a sort of checklist of how it should be used for instance:

1) Mages becoming more vocal+rioting including first enchanter
2) More and more examples of mages being accused of blood magic
3) Actual encounters with abominations

etc etc

But those are the exact points a Knight-Commander looks for, amongst others. They don't just wake up one morning and say, "oh man, this day already sucks, I'm gonna call for an annulment!"

[LobselVith8]

barryl89 wrote...

Once Orsino turned, the Rite should have been enacted despite Meridith.

One man shouldn't condemn an entire Circle to execution.

[1Nosphorus1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
When the apprentice wakes up and starts killing people, is a good indicator. Otherwise it is when the mage is taking too long.

But those are the exact points a Knight-Commander looks for, amongst others. They don't just wake up one morning and say, "oh man, this day already sucks, I'm gonna call for an annulment!"

An abomination need not take form instantly, it can wait and bloom later on in their life at any point depending on the bargain made.

And that's pretty much what Meredith did...

"Hey that Apostate just blew up a church and surrendered, I'm gonna go storm the mage tower instead and murder children because the people WILL WANT BLOOOOD, HOT JUICY BOILING MAGE BLOOD TO FILL THEIR BLOOD GOBLETS!"

[sphinxess]

LobselVith8 wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

Once Orsino turned, the Rite should have been enacted despite Meridith.

One man shouldn't condemn an entire Circle to execution.

I somehow doubt Hawke could switch sides by that point if on the mage side