1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it has everything to do with legality. Gregoire waited in a far more dire situation in Fereldan in part because the authority was unclear. You can not *legally* request a decision from a superior authority and then not wait for a reply unless the situation drastically changes, and with regard to the circle (the ONLY thing that matters for a Rite of Annulement) there hadn't been any change. Meridith pulled a fast one because she thought she could get away with it..and ulimately she did.

-Polaris

Greagoir has the advantage that the mages are all behind a locked door. The Kirkwall mages are all over the city and **** is hitting the fan. Meredith can't just sit around and wait for orders.

Actually yes she can.  There is no rioting in the street, no abominations, only Orisino and a relatively small number of mages with him (a couple dozen tops) as an escort.  All that happens AFTER Meridith declares war, not before.  You can not use that as evidence.

-Polaris

When do you get to say what others can or can't use as evidence. You don't get to control everything from one tiny loop hole theory in your head that has NO backing from anything but your HEAD! That makes your evidence also invalid.

[White_Buffalo94]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

That's the entire arguement right there to be honest.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

Facts not in evidence.  There is nothing that suggests that the people of Kirkwall did anything other than go into the cellar and lay low and let the City Guards protect them.  Meridith claims the mob wants mage blood, but there is no evidence to support that (and plenty that Meridith simply wants to kill all mages regardless of any excuse).

In fact, if she were really interested in the mob (as both Sebastian and my Hawke were), you arrest the GUILTY PARTY, put him on trial (which amounts in this case to, did you do it?  Answer: Yes and if I have to die so be it.) and then execute him.  Believe it or not, even for acts of horrific terrorism, most people would accept the summary justice and open execution of the one responsible (or as Sebastian put it, it's not enough but it's a start).

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

I'm just going to point out that because Meredith sent for the Right in the first place, she already considered the circle lost.
Whether or not the explosion had anything to do with the Circle is irrelevant. It destablised the city and killed off all available Chantry authority, giving Meredith the legal right to act on what she already considered a desperate situation to begin with.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Why does this matter? We know she was crazy and whether or not the order was legal is irrelivant, because she is dead.

[IanPolaris]

Torax,

Simply. You do not have perfect knowledge of the future. No one does. Therfore when you evaluate a decision for it's legality, you have to do so based on the information that existed THEN and not in the future.

-Polaris

[Torax]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

That's the entire arguement right there to be honest.

No it is not the argument in this thread. The argument is a theory in Polaris' head for why it's illegal. Why is he doing this. Cause Gaider said she had the right do so in another thread.

He came up with a theory without knowing what a response would have been from the Divine let alone anything other than her writing to the divine. He is leaping with an opinion and not facts to attempt to submitt as evidence in a legal setting when it is not there. When Gaider said she had the right do so. He had to come up with a reason why she did not. But it's just an opinion not a fact.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[RazorrX]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

The mages in Ferelden were all sealed in the tower AND Gregior was waiting for reinforcements along with the permission. Do note that he needed more men as well.

Meredith had a city that had just had a major terrorist attack. An attack that killed not only the High Cleric, but many lay sisters and brothers, commoners, nobles, etc. An attack that was the work of an apostate. The city was about to tear itself apart and they WOULD have called for blood, innocents would have died for being suspected of using magic, etc. It was a time of high alert and crisis. Thus she was totally within her right to do what she did. This is proven in game by ALL the templars following her orders, even Cullen.

Cullen is a nut that is only a step or two below Meredith before the idol. He hates mages. LEt me raphrase that, he HATES mages.

Actually, if you side with the templars he stands up to Merideth and spares the mages who do NOT turn to blood magic.  She confronts him and asks him if he is willing to risk allowing a blood mage to live in order to spare them and his reply was:

"Yes, Yes I do.  I believe that is what it means to be a Templar."  Or something very close.

He fears mages.  FEARS them.  He does, however, show that he has learned what a Templar is supposed to be though.

[AshenEndymion]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

That's the entire arguement right there to be honest.

Right of Annulment:  If a Knight Commander feels the Circle is beyond redemption, s/he may ask the Grand Cleric for the Right of Annulment to purge the Circle.

If the Right of Annulment is granted, innocence of a crime does not matter.  You may disagree.  But the law does not.

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax,

Simply. You do not have perfect knowledge of the future. No one does. Therfore when you evaluate a decision for it's legality, you have to do so based on the information that existed THEN and not in the future.

-Polaris

Opinions will not work in this case for your legal decision. You need evidence and you have none. End of discusion.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm just going to point out that because Meredith sent for the Right in the first place, she already considered the circle lost.
Whether or not the explosion had anything to do with the Circle is irrelevant. It destablised the city and killed off all available Chantry authority, giving Meredith the legal right to act on what she already considered a desperate situation to begin with.

Honestly, by this point she just wanted to kill all mages, and she was going to persist (like  a little girl) until she got "yes" no matter how many times she was told "no".  She was obligated to wait, but couldn't pass up a golden opportunity to BBQ some mages.  Seriously, look at her face when she makes the annoucement. She's almost climaxing (yes sexually) when she makes it.

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

Torax wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

That's the entire arguement right there to be honest.

No it is not the argument in this thread. The argument is a theory in Polaris' head for why it's illegal. Why is he doing this. Cause Gaider said she had the right do so in another thread.

He came up with a theory without knowing what a response would have been from the Divine let alone anything other than her writing to the divine. He is leaping with an opinion and not facts to attempt to submitt as evidence in a legal setting when it is not there. When Gaider said she had the right do so. He had to come up with a reason why she did not. But it's just an opinion not a fact.

There is no evidence of their guilt even if all or some happen to be blood mages. None of them had anything to do with the explosion. Not explicitly within the evidence we get at the time. Which is to say none except a blown up chantry

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax,

Simply. You do not have perfect knowledge of the future. No one does. Therfore when you evaluate a decision for it's legality, you have to do so based on the information that existed THEN and not in the future.

-Polaris

Opinions will not work in this case for your legal decision. You need evidence and you have none. End of discusion.

You need to show evidence that the situation in the circle had changed when Meridith gave the order (not immedately afterwords).  You can't.  For something as dire as an emergency Rite of Annulement, you have to show evidence to justify not the other way around.

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm just going to point out that because Meredith sent for the Right in the first place, she already considered the circle lost.
Whether or not the explosion had anything to do with the Circle is irrelevant. It destablised the city and killed off all available Chantry authority, giving Meredith the legal right to act on what she already considered a desperate situation to begin with.

Honestly, by this point she just wanted to kill all mages, and she was going to persist (like  a little girl) until she got "yes" no matter how many times she was told "no".  She was obligated to wait, but couldn't pass up a golden opportunity to BBQ some mages.  Seriously, look at her face when she makes the annoucement. She's almost climaxing (yes sexually) when she makes it.

-Polaris

Lmao

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm just going to point out that because Meredith sent for the Right in the first place, she already considered the circle lost.
Whether or not the explosion had anything to do with the Circle is irrelevant. It destablised the city and killed off all available Chantry authority, giving Meredith the legal right to act on what she already considered a desperate situation to begin with.

Honestly, by this point she just wanted to kill all mages, and she was going to persist (like  a little girl) until she got "yes" no matter how many times she was told "no".  She was obligated to wait, but couldn't pass up a golden opportunity to BBQ some mages.  Seriously, look at her face when she makes the annoucement. She's almost climaxing (yes sexually) when she makes it.

-Polaris

Again we're not discussing that she was nuttier than a peanut farm and that she was wrong.
We're discussing if the Chantry laws allowed her to do this, and they did. In a state of emergency with all local Chantry authority passing to her she is not obligated to wait for a response, especially as that response is only required in the first place because the Grand Cleric is denying her. She isn't denying her any longer - she's dead.

[TJPags]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

Good point.  Not sure much more needs to be said.  The Divine may not agree with the decision, but Meredith had the authority to make it.

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

Facts not in evidence.  There is nothing that suggests that the people of Kirkwall did anything other than go into the cellar and lay low and let the City Guards protect them.  Meridith claims the mob wants mage blood, but there is no evidence to support that (and plenty that Meridith simply wants to kill all mages regardless of any excuse).

In fact, if she were really interested in the mob (as both Sebastian and my Hawke were), you arrest the GUILTY PARTY, put him on trial (which amounts in this case to, did you do it?  Answer: Yes and if I have to die so be it.) and then execute him.  Believe it or not, even for acts of horrific terrorism, most people would accept the summary justice and open execution of the one responsible (or as Sebastian put it, it's not enough but it's a start).

-Polaris

Facts absolutely in evidence.  We have testimony from Meredith.  Question its credibility, but do not claim its not in evidence.

As to the reaction, its been seconds since the Chantry blew.  Mobs form quickly, but not that quickly.

Finally, again, do you think the people in the City would be satisified by that trial?  Yopu don't think they want to know if he had help from Circle Mages?  You don't think that maybe they WON'T CARE, and will just want to kill mages  - who they believe are dangeous anyway - on sight?

That's being naive.

[White_Buffalo94]

RazorrX wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

The mages in Ferelden were all sealed in the tower AND Gregior was waiting for reinforcements along with the permission. Do note that he needed more men as well.

Meredith had a city that had just had a major terrorist attack. An attack that killed not only the High Cleric, but many lay sisters and brothers, commoners, nobles, etc. An attack that was the work of an apostate. The city was about to tear itself apart and they WOULD have called for blood, innocents would have died for being suspected of using magic, etc. It was a time of high alert and crisis. Thus she was totally within her right to do what she did. This is proven in game by ALL the templars following her orders, even Cullen.

Cullen is a nut that is only a step or two below Meredith before the idol. He hates mages. LEt me raphrase that, he HATES mages.

Actually, if you side with the templars he stands up to Merideth and spares the mages who do NOT turn to blood magic.  She confronts him and asks him if he is willing to risk allowing a blood mage to live in order to spare them and his reply was:

"Yes, Yes I do.  I believe that is what it means to be a Templar."  Or something very close.

He fears mages.  FEARS them.  He does, however, show that he has learned what a Templar is supposed to be though.

About time, too

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

You need to show evidence that the situation in the circle had changed when Meridith gave the order (not immedately afterwords).  You can't.  For something as dire as an emergency Rite of Annulement, you have to show evidence to justify not the other way around.

-Polaris

Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

[Torax]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Torax wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

I think we need not resort to legal technicalities.  The Rite of Annulment was wrong because the Circle mages (despite being blood mages) are as far as we know innocent of the crime.

That's the entire arguement right there to be honest.

No it is not the argument in this thread. The argument is a theory in Polaris' head for why it's illegal. Why is he doing this. Cause Gaider said she had the right do so in another thread.

He came up with a theory without knowing what a response would have been from the Divine let alone anything other than her writing to the divine. He is leaping with an opinion and not facts to attempt to submitt as evidence in a legal setting when it is not there. When Gaider said she had the right do so. He had to come up with a reason why she did not. But it's just an opinion not a fact.

There is no evidence of their guilt even if all or some happen to be blood mages. None of them had anything to do with the explosion. Not explicitly within the evidence we get at the time. Which is to say none except a blown up chantry

Since he already basically wanted to exclude anything that happens at that point in the game? We shouldn't be talking about that. Just his little dream of how a letter was written and supposedly responded to that changes what Meredith can or can't do. Without truly knowing what the structure is in said situations or even what the emergency actions are for problems of these types. When people try to point out the sitation with the chantry and all that. He has casted them aside. So no I don't care about who did what at the end. Cause obviously he doesn't. He just wants to prove Gaider wrong.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

You need to show evidence that the situation in the circle had changed when Meridith gave the order (not immedately afterwords).  You can't.  For something as dire as an emergency Rite of Annulement, you have to show evidence to justify not the other way around.

-Polaris

The situation in the circle is irrelevent.

Meredith only had to justify her opinion for the Right of Annulment to the Grand Cleric.

The acting Grand Cleric felt it was justified.

[White_Buffalo94]

TJPags wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

Good point.  Not sure much more needs to be said.  The Divine may not agree with the decision, but Meredith had the authority to make it.

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

Facts not in evidence.  There is nothing that suggests that the people of Kirkwall did anything other than go into the cellar and lay low and let the City Guards protect them.  Meridith claims the mob wants mage blood, but there is no evidence to support that (and plenty that Meridith simply wants to kill all mages regardless of any excuse).

In fact, if she were really interested in the mob (as both Sebastian and my Hawke were), you arrest the GUILTY PARTY, put him on trial (which amounts in this case to, did you do it?  Answer: Yes and if I have to die so be it.) and then execute him.  Believe it or not, even for acts of horrific terrorism, most people would accept the summary justice and open execution of the one responsible (or as Sebastian put it, it's not enough but it's a start).

-Polaris

Facts absolutely in evidence.  We have testimony from Meredith.  Question its credibility, but do not claim its not in evidence.

As to the reaction, its been seconds since the Chantry blew.  Mobs form quickly, but not that quickly.

Finally, again, do you think the people in the City would be satisified by that trial?  Yopu don't think they want to know if he had help from Circle Mages?  You don't think that maybe they WON'T CARE, and will just want to kill mages  - who they believe are dangeous anyway - on sight?

That's being naive.

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

The nobles do nothing except watch the entire time.
Just because they're listening to Orsino doesn't mean they agree with him, and even if they resent Meredith being acting Viscount it doesn't follow that they're siding with the mages.

[White_Buffalo94]

This is becoming a rambling arguement with no capitulating in sight. Every point is being brought back to attention several times over. I think we have all made up our minds by this time

[TJPags]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

Good point.  Not sure much more needs to be said.  The Divine may not agree with the decision, but Meredith had the authority to make it.

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

Facts not in evidence.  There is nothing that suggests that the people of Kirkwall did anything other than go into the cellar and lay low and let the City Guards protect them.  Meridith claims the mob wants mage blood, but there is no evidence to support that (and plenty that Meridith simply wants to kill all mages regardless of any excuse).

In fact, if she were really interested in the mob (as both Sebastian and my Hawke were), you arrest the GUILTY PARTY, put him on trial (which amounts in this case to, did you do it?  Answer: Yes and if I have to die so be it.) and then execute him.  Believe it or not, even for acts of horrific terrorism, most people would accept the summary justice and open execution of the one responsible (or as Sebastian put it, it's not enough but it's a start).

-Polaris

Facts absolutely in evidence.  We have testimony from Meredith.  Question its credibility, but do not claim its not in evidence.

As to the reaction, its been seconds since the Chantry blew.  Mobs form quickly, but not that quickly.

Finally, again, do you think the people in the City would be satisified by that trial?  Yopu don't think they want to know if he had help from Circle Mages?  You don't think that maybe they WON'T CARE, and will just want to kill mages  - who they believe are dangeous anyway - on sight?

That's being naive.

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

Not sure why you bring that up. 

First, nobles are not the entire city.

Second, that situation is certainly different than the one at the END of Act 3.

Heck, some nobles probably didn't mind the Qunari being around.  They likely changed their minds when the Qunari herded them all into the palace, beheaded the Viscount, and indicated they were about to do the same to everyone else.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

The nobles do nothing except watch the entire time.
Just because they're listening to Orsino doesn't mean they agree with him, and even if they resent Meredith being acting Viscount it doesn't follow that they're siding with the mages.

Next time that arguement ends, talk to every noble in the square. They all believe:
Meredith has gone too far
You should become the new Viscount
and that not all mages are evil