1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

This is becoming a rambling arguement with no capitulating in sight. Every point is being brought back to attention several times over. I think we have all made up our minds by this time

It's what happens when someone attempts to make a facade of a legel argument without evidence and only opinions or theory. It doesn't work. Especially if they are attempting to use it to override all other current evidence. Even if the strongest evidence against him was from the guy who wrote said character.

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

This is becoming a rambling arguement with no capitulating in sight. Every point is being brought back to attention several times over. I think we have all made up our minds by this time

Most of us are just going by what the writer has said.
The revelation that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment just shows that she's a nutbar. But we already knew about that.
Again this argument has nothing to do with how innocent the mages were or how wrong Meredith was, just if she acted against Chantry law, and nothing says that she did.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Does any of this matter? What difference does it make if Meredith was acting illegaly?

[White_Buffalo94]

TJPags wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

Good point.  Not sure much more needs to be said.  The Divine may not agree with the decision, but Meredith had the authority to make it.

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Again, people are going to want mage blood.  That they didn't clamor for it seconds after the explosion doesn't mean they won't.  That changed.  The Circle, and the mages in it, are now a liability - they are a target for violence which can rip the city apart.

Facts not in evidence.  There is nothing that suggests that the people of Kirkwall did anything other than go into the cellar and lay low and let the City Guards protect them.  Meridith claims the mob wants mage blood, but there is no evidence to support that (and plenty that Meridith simply wants to kill all mages regardless of any excuse).

In fact, if she were really interested in the mob (as both Sebastian and my Hawke were), you arrest the GUILTY PARTY, put him on trial (which amounts in this case to, did you do it?  Answer: Yes and if I have to die so be it.) and then execute him.  Believe it or not, even for acts of horrific terrorism, most people would accept the summary justice and open execution of the one responsible (or as Sebastian put it, it's not enough but it's a start).

-Polaris

Facts absolutely in evidence.  We have testimony from Meredith.  Question its credibility, but do not claim its not in evidence.

As to the reaction, its been seconds since the Chantry blew.  Mobs form quickly, but not that quickly.

Finally, again, do you think the people in the City would be satisified by that trial?  Yopu don't think they want to know if he had help from Circle Mages?  You don't think that maybe they WON'T CARE, and will just want to kill mages  - who they believe are dangeous anyway - on sight?

That's being naive.

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

Not sure why you bring that up. 

First, nobles are not the entire city.

Second, that situation is certainly different than the one at the END of Act 3.

Heck, some nobles probably didn't mind the Qunari being around.  They likely changed their minds when the Qunari herded them all into the palace, beheaded the Viscount, and indicated they were about to do the same to everyone else.

The nobles are the elite, but I see oyur point. I was just indicating that the nobles present do not favor the oppression of mages nor the empowerment of a templar, who btw, cannot hold a title, which Viscount certainly is.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

The nobles do nothing except watch the entire time.
Just because they're listening to Orsino doesn't mean they agree with him, and even if they resent Meredith being acting Viscount it doesn't follow that they're siding with the mages.

Actually all of them DO think that Meridith has far exceded her bounds and is out of control and most DO actually agree with Orisino,  One even says that his daughter is in the circle and most are not bloodmages.  Cullen even complains that once the Templars were the heros of Kirkwall, and people would tip their caps and open doors for them but now they are as likely to get doors slammed in their face.

Meridith's Job-Approval rating is not good in Act 3.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

The nobles do nothing except watch the entire time.
Just because they're listening to Orsino doesn't mean they agree with him, and even if they resent Meredith being acting Viscount it doesn't follow that they're siding with the mages.

Next time that arguement ends, talk to every noble in the square. They all believe:
Meredith has gone too far
You should become the new Viscount
and that not all mages are evil

I did.  They all agreed that Orsino was evil and that all the mages used Blood magic, and the Circle needed to be purged.

Perhaps it's because I agreed with Meredith the entire time?

[Torax]

noneofyourbussines77 wrote...

Does any of this matter? What difference does it make if Meredith was acting illegaly?

It's Polaris trying to prove Gaider wrong. It's all it is.

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Next time that arguement ends, talk to every noble in the square. They all believe:
Meredith has gone too far
You should become the new Viscount
and that not all mages are evil

Again that doesn't mean that they support mages outright.
That also doesn't reflect their opinion after a mage and abomination blows up the Chantry which a) kills a popular Grand Cleric and is right where they live.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

This is becoming a rambling arguement with no capitulating in sight. Every point is being brought back to attention several times over. I think we have all made up our minds by this time

Most of us are just going by what the writer has said.
The revelation that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment just shows that she's a nutbar. But we already knew about that.
Again this argument has nothing to do with how innocent the mages were or how wrong Meredith was, just if she acted against Chantry law, and nothing says that she did.

Personally, I agree that she did go against Chantry law. I also believe that Meredith did not care by that time. It seems to me that by that time, the idol had totally consumed her being, which was crazy enough.

[David Gaider]

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

Modifié par David Gaider, 08 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

This is becoming a rambling arguement with no capitulating in sight. Every point is being brought back to attention several times over. I think we have all made up our minds by this time

Most of us are just going by what the writer has said.
The revelation that Meredith sent for the Right of Annulment just shows that she's a nutbar. But we already knew about that.
Again this argument has nothing to do with how innocent the mages were or how wrong Meredith was, just if she acted against Chantry law, and nothing says that she did.

The particular point I mention is I think work looking at, and has NOT been addressed by DG or any other writer (DG is not the only writer).  However, I agree with White Buffalo that we are talking in circles and convincing no one so I will take a break from this thread for a while.

-Polaris

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm just going to point out that because Meredith sent for the Right in the first place, she already considered the circle lost.
Whether or not the explosion had anything to do with the Circle is irrelevant. It destablised the city and killed off all available Chantry authority, giving Meredith the legal right to act on what she already considered a desperate situation to begin with.

Honestly, by this point she just wanted to kill all mages, and she was going to persist (like  a little girl) until she got "yes" no matter how many times she was told "no".  She was obligated to wait, but couldn't pass up a golden opportunity to BBQ some mages.  Seriously, look at her face when she makes the annoucement. She's almost climaxing (yes sexually) when she makes it.

-Polaris

All signs point to the Divine setting everything up to carry out a Annulment anyway - at least from the DLC information

[AshenEndymion]

And God has spoken...

[The Angry One]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Personally, I agree that she did go against Chantry law. I also believe that Meredith did not care by that time. It seems to me that by that time, the idol had totally consumed her being, which was crazy enough.

David Gaider said she didn't, and considering that he and others he works with wrote that Chantry law and Meredith I think they know for sure.

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 avril 2011 - 01:43 .

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

In my playthroughs, I recall every noble siding against Meredith in favor of mages. Right as the big arguement in the beginning of ACT III ends.

The nobles do nothing except watch the entire time.
Just because they're listening to Orsino doesn't mean they agree with him, and even if they resent Meredith being acting Viscount it doesn't follow that they're siding with the mages.

Actually all of them DO think that Meridith has far exceded her bounds and is out of control and most DO actually agree with Orisino,  One even says that his daughter is in the circle and most are not bloodmages.  Cullen even complains that once the Templars were the heros of Kirkwall, and people would tip their caps and open doors for them but now they are as likely to get doors slammed in their face.

Meridith's Job-Approval rating is not good in Act 3.

-Polaris

Majority of the responses they give is "I wish you really were the Viscount." All she seemed to be doing was increasing her control since after all it's 3 years and she's just shut down every name they've given her it seems. I'm guessing if she even have a complaint box it would be full of letters probably stuffed in by that little urchin in the Blooming Rose.

[IanPolaris]

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

[Torax]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

I love you a little bit more now. Though you also justified it with a response kinda.

[White_Buffalo94]

The Angry One wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Next time that arguement ends, talk to every noble in the square. They all believe:
Meredith has gone too far
You should become the new Viscount
and that not all mages are evil

Again that doesn't mean that they support mages outright.
That also doesn't reflect their opinion after a mage and abomination blows up the Chantry which a) kills a popular Grand Cleric and is right where they live.

No, it doesn't mean they support the mages outright, but it does mean that they oppose KC Meredith. We are never told whether Elthina is popular, unless you count Sebastian, but he doesn't count because he practically bends over to the chantry. But the explosion really just made a loud noise and bright lights. As I said before, non of the debris hit Kirkwall. And if by some off chance it did, it very probably landed in the sea, out into the wilderness and crashed into Sundermount, or hit lowtown. Yet we see no giant rocks hitting lowtown nor large pieces of Dwarven masonry scattered throughout the gallows

[The Angry One]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

Personally I think speculating the repercussions had Meredith lived would be a far more interesting discussion but then I love idle speculation..

[White_Buffalo94]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

Thanks for clearing that up DG. Now I'm out

[KnightofPhoenix]

6 pages too late.

[IanPolaris]

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Which group would you be attempt to compare them to? What other large groups of Paladin/Templars are designed strictly for the protection and containment of the threats of magic? Especially one who is only governed by a more millitant pope like female figure? Which other group also locks up these powerful magic users and then makes things like the "Right of Annulment" as a plan for dire situations? I'm thinking attempting to apply some other rational thought process from present day millitary ranks to that is not going to fit properly.

[IanPolaris]

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Which group would you be attempt to compare them to? What other large groups of Paladin/Templars are designed strictly for the protection and containment of the threats of magic? Especially one who is only governed by a more millitant pope like female figure? Which other group also locks up these powerful magic users and then makes things like the "Right of Annulment" as a plan for dire situations? I'm thinking attempting to apply some other rational thought process from present day millitary ranks to that is not going to fit properly.

If  Trident sub commander launched his nukes using the same justifications that Meridith did, he's be lucky to be just court martialed.  Enough said.  I think that's actually a pretty fair comparison as well given the destructive potential in handful of people.

-olaris

[The Angry One]

I assume that after something as major as a Right of Annulment, the Chantry would always send investigators to determine if this was the only option at which point they'd find Meredith unfit to command. But this doesn't change her legal authority at the time.