1072 réponses à ce sujet

[Musou1776]

The legality or extra legality of Meredith's actions are best viewed through the prism of military chain of command, standing orders, SOP, and local commander discretion. Chantry law already legalizes wholesale killing of mages in exactly the kind of situation that occurs. Her earlier request going over the local religious leader's head becomes irrelevant once exigent circumstances require immediate action in her opinion as the commander on the scene.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

I assume that after something as major as a Right of Annulment, the Chantry would always send investigators to determine if this was the only option at which point they'd find Meredith unfit to command. But this doesn't change her legal authority at the time.

Seeing how she managed to ****** everyone off and probably for the first time in history, common people are sympathizing with mages, I'd say that was long overdue.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you here.

I agree with Meredith that, in general, thw Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause and needed to be Anulled.

However, I agree - I think - with you, Polaris, that Anders act was not a reason to do so.  She had the right to do it - and always did, in my mind - but her reason for doing so at that time was wrong.

I;d like to think the Divine would agree with that reasoning.

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Think it has to do with the Sister Nightingale stuff?  - they had to have the circle crushed as a statement against outside forces - though odd enough crushing it didn't seem to make a difference <Hawke on Templar side> well reacting to the wrong thing didn;t help either - all the circles rose anyway.

Modifié par sphinxess, 08 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I assume that after something as major as a Right of Annulment, the Chantry would always send investigators to determine if this was the only option at which point they'd find Meredith unfit to command. But this doesn't change her legal authority at the time.

Seeing how she managed to ****** everyone off and probably for the first time in history, common people are sympathizing with mages, I'd say that was long overdue.

There were probably already people in the Chantry calling for her removal, but as we all know religious beaurocracies are so efficient..

[Torax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Torax wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Which group would you be attempt to compare them to? What other large groups of Paladin/Templars are designed strictly for the protection and containment of the threats of magic? Especially one who is only governed by a more millitant pope like female figure? Which other group also locks up these powerful magic users and then makes things like the "Right of Annulment" as a plan for dire situations? I'm thinking attempting to apply some other rational thought process from present day millitary ranks to that is not going to fit properly.

If  Trident sub commander launched his nukes using the same justifications that Meridith did, he's be lucky to be just court martialed.  Enough said.  I think that's actually a pretty fair comparison as well given the destructive potential in handful of people.

-olaris

You want to compare that do you? Okay only if the Trident commander fit into the same situation which he does not.

Told to watch and protect a specific group of people from others in their own land area.

Have the right to kill of the specific group in a specific chain of command.

The suprior died making them the acting leader.

The act that killed the Superior also was completely public and ignited hystery and threat.

They aimed the nuke at that one building in close vicinty to where EVERYONE you are protecting lives.

They have the RIGHT to do so at all in the first place.


Now only if all of that criteria is met? Then you can attempt to side-step the issue of why you wanted to prove gaider wrong. So once that is done you then try to act like the logic is flawed since you were halted again on the subject.

[Conduit0]

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

Lies, and I'm calling you out on it! We all already know for a fact what the repercussions are. You get turned into modern art!


Speaking of, I assume you can't answer, but I'll ask anyways, is it a coincidence that statue Meredith looks almost identicle to the female figure on the idol?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you here.

I agree with Meredith that, in general, thw Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause and needed to be Anulled.

However, I agree - I think - with you, Polaris, that Anders act was not a reason to do so.  She had the right to do it - and always did, in my mind - but her reason for doing so at that time was wrong.

I;d like to think the Divine would agree with that reasoning.

Exactly.  I think we agree on this point.  My strong personal intuition is of course the other direction, but yes, I think this is precisely the Seeker's/Divine reasoning.  ":How could you be such a CLOD!"  I think that would be the intial and nicest thing that would be told to KC Meridith in a hypothetical Seeker interrogation.....

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

Conduit0 wrote...

Lies, and I'm calling you out on it! We all already know for a fact what the repercussions are. You get turned into modern art!

No, that's not a repercussion for the Right of Annulment, that's the punishment for using Soul Edge without a licence. 

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you here.

I agree with Meredith that, in general, thw Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause and needed to be Anulled.

However, I agree - I think - with you, Polaris, that Anders act was not a reason to do so.  She had the right to do it - and always did, in my mind - but her reason for doing so at that time was wrong.

I;d like to think the Divine would agree with that reasoning.

Exactly.  I think we agree on this point.  My strong personal intuition is of course the other direction, but yes, I think this is precisely the Seeker's/Divine reasoning.  ":How could you be such a CLOD!"  I think that would be the intial and nicest thing that would be told to KC Meridith in a hypothetical Seeker interrogation.....

-Polaris

Her reasoning is always going to be suspect, of course.
That she had the legal authority and that she used that authority without good reason are too different things.

[IanPolaris]

sphinxess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Think it has to do with the Sister Nightingale stuff?  - they had to have the circle crushed as a statement against outside forces - though odd enough crushing it didn't seem to make a difference <Hawke on Templar side> - all the circles rose anyway.

That touches on a related point which continues to bother me a great deal.  Who did the brain-transplant in Lelianna and made her such a rabid mage hater that she feels (along with the Divine) that an Exalted March (with all the horror that entails) is needed to keep Kirkwall from "falling to magic especially after what happened in Fereldan".

GEEZ!  This is the same girl that pleaded for mercy to a known bloodmage so she cound find succor in the Chantry?  Is this going to be a pattern?  Is everyone going to get the mage-hater/evil-mage overhaul?

-Polaris

[Apollo Starflare]

The Angry One wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Lies, and I'm calling you out on it! We all already know for a fact what the repercussions are. You get turned into modern art!

No, that's not a repercussion for the Right of Annulment, that's the punishment for using Soul Edge without a licence. 

My suspicion has long been that she was just suffering from Murder Knife envy, then it all got out of hand...

[TJPags]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you here.

I agree with Meredith that, in general, thw Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause and needed to be Anulled.

However, I agree - I think - with you, Polaris, that Anders act was not a reason to do so.  She had the right to do it - and always did, in my mind - but her reason for doing so at that time was wrong.

I;d like to think the Divine would agree with that reasoning.

Exactly.  I think we agree on this point.  My strong personal intuition is of course the other direction, but yes, I think this is precisely the Seeker's/Divine reasoning.  ":How could you be such a CLOD!"  I think that would be the intial and nicest thing that would be told to KC Meridith in a hypothetical Seeker interrogation.....

-Polaris

Her reasoning is always going to be suspect, of course.
That she had the legal authority and that she used that authority without good reason are too different things.

Absolutely.

My first game, I fully expected that, if given the chance, I'd wipe out the mage circle.  All those insane blood mages had me ready to kill anyone with a staff.

But when it happened, I didn't like how it went down.  Anders did it, Meredith KNEW that, and didn't look at him twice - just wanted to Anull the Circle.  Now, I REALLY wanted to Anull that Circle.  But not for that reason.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Absolutely.

My first game, I fully expected that, if given the chance, I'd wipe out the mage circle.  All those insane blood mages had me ready to kill anyone with a staff.

But when it happened, I didn't like how it went down.  Anders did it, Meredith KNEW that, and didn't look at him twice - just wanted to Anull the Circle.  Now, I REALLY wanted to Anull that Circle.  But not for that reason.

Would it really matter?

You can decide to help Meredith annul the Circle with a completely different reason in mind, especially seeing how you already wanted to do it in the first place. I don't think mages are going to think that differently of you if you decide to wipe them out anyways. 

[Conduit0]

IanPolaris wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

Think it has to do with the Sister Nightingale stuff?  - they had to have the circle crushed as a statement against outside forces - though odd enough crushing it didn't seem to make a difference <Hawke on Templar side> - all the circles rose anyway.

That touches on a related point which continues to bother me a great deal.  Who did the brain-transplant in Lelianna and made her such a rabid mage hater that she feels (along with the Divine) that an Exalted March (with all the horror that entails) is needed to keep Kirkwall from "falling to magic especially after what happened in Fereldan".

GEEZ!  This is the same girl that pleaded for mercy to a known bloodmage so she cound find succor in the Chantry?  Is this going to be a pattern?  Is everyone going to get the mage-hater/evil-mage overhaul?

-Polaris

I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

[Icy Magebane]

Musou1776 wrote...

The legality or extra legality of Meredith's actions are best viewed through the prism of military chain of command, standing orders, SOP, and local commander discretion. Chantry law already legalizes wholesale killing of mages in exactly the kind of situation that occurs. Her earlier request going over the local religious leader's head becomes irrelevant once exigent circumstances require immediate action in her opinion as the commander on the scene.

This is pretty much how I see it.  Once the situation changed due to Anders' bombing, not only did she get bumped up the chain, but there was no way she could just sit around waiting for a response from the Divine.  She'd need to send out a new messenger anyway with details on what just happened.  Being in command means you have to make spur of the moment decisions.  If the CO gets killed and you wind up in charge, you can't just wait for another superior to give clearance to handle the new situation...  maybe if they had radios, but not when you're relying on a guy on horseback traveling hundreds of miles.

Conduit0 wrote...
I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what
Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

She seemed in favor of an Exhalted March to me... Hawke had the option of either convincing her it was a bad idea or telling her "holy war is needed."  She seemed okay with either of those arguments, but at first, she seemed to think that Kirkwall was already lost.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 08 avril 2011 - 02:19 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Absolutely.

My first game, I fully expected that, if given the chance, I'd wipe out the mage circle.  All those insane blood mages had me ready to kill anyone with a staff.

But when it happened, I didn't like how it went down.  Anders did it, Meredith KNEW that, and didn't look at him twice - just wanted to Anull the Circle.  Now, I REALLY wanted to Anull that Circle.  But not for that reason.

Would it really matter?

You can decide to help Meredith annul the Circle with a completely different reason in mind, especially seeing how you already wanted to do it in the first place. I don't think mages are going to think that differently of you if you decide to wipe them out anyways. 

Sure, the end result is the same.

I view it like this:  I have a known murderer.  I mean, we KNOW this person is a murderer.  They are on trial for a specific murder, and the prosecution can't prove they did this one.  Do you convict anyway, or let them off because this charge has not been proven?

Honestly, in most scenarios, I'd actually convict the known murderer.  In this game though, I didn't.  Even though I firmly believed that Circle needed to be anulled - I KNEW they were murderers, in other words - they didn't do this one.

Of course, I thought there might be some difference in what happens, based on what I decided - that had something to do with it, too.  Obviously, I was wrong there. 

[IanPolaris]

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

She seemed very anti-mage to me (and completely unlike DAO Lelianna).  It wasn't just that comment but the snooty, "we've tolerated those that wanted to superate from the chantry" and other comments about mages.  It really turned me off to Lelianna and made me wish I did leave her in Lothering.  Srsly.

-Polaris

[Tainan7509]

So i guess Hawke did a favor for Chantry and Divine, right? if so i'm regret for killing Mereidth tbh.

[Emperor Iaius I]

IanPolaris wrote...

OK, DG has spoken. Not a suprise. Apparently it's important for the story that Meridith be legally in the right. Okaay. Wish I was suprised....... (btw that's not how it works in most normal military/paramilitary orginizations but DG has spoken...)

-Polaris

You expect Chantry law to make sense? It's better this way: the Chantry sees no problem in granting the executioner summary authority over life and death in the absence of the party that would normally be responsible. It pleases me that the Chantry allows such injustice. It's one more mark against the whole institution.

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Given Cassandra's reaction to Varric's tale and given the consequences, I think it's a good think Hawke did kill Meridith. Otherwise the Divine's Seekers surely would have one millimter at a time...not because the Divine disagreed but because of the abuse of emergency power (regardless of legality) and the horrific consequences of that abuse.

-Polaris

I actually agree with you here.

I agree with Meredith that, in general, thw Kirkwall Circle was a lost cause and needed to be Anulled.

However, I agree - I think - with you, Polaris, that Anders act was not a reason to do so.  She had the right to do it - and always did, in my mind - but her reason for doing so at that time was wrong.

I;d like to think the Divine would agree with that reasoning.

Exactly.  I think we agree on this point.  My strong personal intuition is of course the other direction, but yes, I think this is precisely the Seeker's/Divine reasoning.  ":How could you be such a CLOD!"  I think that would be the intial and nicest thing that would be told to KC Meridith in a hypothetical Seeker interrogation.....

-Polaris

So... as I understand this thread....

Meridith had the legal right to order the Annulment.

Whether Meridith had the moral right to order the Annulment would depend on whether or not the Circle was complicit in Anders actions.  This would require an investigation and inquiry by the Templars

(Polaris has stated on many occasions that he believes there was no complicity by the Circle.  However, until an investigation is done and the facts uncovered, that belief can neither be dismissed or supported.)

Certainly what Meredith should have done (and probably would have done if not driven insane by an evil artifact) would be to arrest Anders on the spot, confine all mages to the Gallows and start that investigation.

The fact that she does not do that says something.

Does not some of the responsibility fall upon Knight-Captain Cullen?   Eventually he did refuse her orders, but not untill a huge number of Mages and Templars are dead.

Meridith might have had the legal right to order the Annulment but if Cullen had refused the order it is reasonable to speculate that she would have tried to chop him to pieces right there (rather than removing him from command).


"There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders."  - Captain Picard

Modifié par Paeyne, 08 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[The Angry One]

While it's true that "I was only following orders" is no justification for crimes, in any military you're still conditioned to follow the orders of your superiors and Cullen still carries the baggage from what happened at the Ferelden tower.
It's understandable at least that he'd default to following orders at least for a time in this situation.

[Tainan7509]

IanPolaris wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

She seemed very anti-mage to me (and completely unlike DAO Lelianna).  It wasn't just that comment but the snooty, "we've tolerated those that wanted to superate from the chantry" and other comments about mages.  It really turned me off to Lelianna and made me wish I did leave her in Lothering.  Srsly.

-Polaris

Well we can't really tell if she is very anti-mage or pro-mage, but one thing we know that she is the right hand for Divine.. for dirty work (killing) so i believe she seem to be anti-mage without any further info.

[Beerfish]

Whether it was legal or not I'd say she was well within her right to do it anyway. Recent history in the city and surounding area uncoverd many instances of mages gone bad. One mage has just blown up the chantry. As a templar commander am I going to twiddle my thumbs and assume that there is one lone terrorist, that being Anders? Or am I going to bring the hammer down. After the chantry was destroyed, a Templar commander would and should take drastic actions. Unfortunate for the innocent mages that get killed in the process but one can't stand around hoping for an investigation after something like that. If one mage can destory the chantry by himself waht are his conspirators doing? (And I sure as hell would assume he had some.)

[Camenae]

I think it's pretty simple.

Did Meredith have the legal authority to call the Right of Annulment or do whatever else? Yes.

Did she ABUSE said legal authority? I would say yes, but that's a different inquiry I think. Related, but different standard of review.

I would think it's like in the military where the next in the chain-of-command takes over when the person in charge dies. As long as the situation lasted, this XO DOES have the legal authority to act. Whether he's going to be court-martialed later for HOW he used that authority would remain to be seen.