1072 réponses à ce sujet

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

She seemed very anti-mage to me (and completely unlike DAO Lelianna).  It wasn't just that comment but the snooty, "we've tolerated those that wanted to superate from the chantry" and other comments about mages.  It really turned me off to Lelianna and made me wish I did leave her in Lothering.  Srsly.

-Polaris

I think she expected the circle would have to be annuled eventually <due to those outside forces> and they were trying to get the Templar forces in place to crush it and send a statement <like Meredith having the Viscount powers> but Meredith pulled the trigger too soon and the other circles found out that the Right of Annulment is  now called for even things mad bomber mages do.
.

[AshenEndymion]

Paeyne wrote...

Does not some of the responsibility fall upon Knight-Captain
Cullen?   Eventually he did refuse her orders, but not untill a huge
number of Mages and Templars are dead.

Meridith might have had
the legal right to order the Annulment but if Cullen had refused the
order it is reasonable to speculate that she would have tried to chop
him to pieces right there (rather than removing him from command).

Cullen could not refuse the order. Given that Meredith had the legal right to make the order, Cullen (and all the Templars) had the duty to follow it. If the order proved to be in bad judgment, the Chantry would have punished Meredith, not the Templars under her command.

And Cullen never did refuse the order. He takes mage prisoners (rather than killing them outright) and makes his case for keeping them alive. He kills them if Hawke sides with Meredith. Cullen only turns on Meredith when she proves herself insane by trying to kill Hawke rather than arresting him (if you side with the mages) or turning on Hawke to begin with (if you side with the Templars).

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 08 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

Whether it was legal or not I'd say she was well within her right to do it anyway. Recent history in the city and surounding area uncoverd many instances of mages gone bad. One mage has just blown up the chantry. As a templar commander am I going to twiddle my thumbs and assume that there is one lone terrorist, that being Anders? Or am I going to bring the hammer down. After the chantry was destroyed, a Templar commander would and should take drastic actions. Unfortunate for the innocent mages that get killed in the process but one can't stand around hoping for an investigation after something like that. If one mage can destory the chantry by himself waht are his conspirators doing? (And I sure as hell would assume he had some.)

Meridith makes no attempt to arrest or interrogate Anders to be sure that he acted alone.  Anders claims this and Orisino says the circle had nothng to do with it, and by her own lack of actions Meridith implicitly agrees especially when she says that it doesn't matter (i.e. a mage destroyed the chantry so kill all mages).

That's the clearest possible indicator that Anders did act alone (or with PC dupes).  I think in the game play it's pretty clear honestly that Anders acted alone and certainly there is no evidence to suggest a conspiracy and no attempt by Meridith to uncover one (which tells me she doesn't think there's one eiher).

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

She doesn't think or she doesn't care. At this point she's looking for any excuse because the voices in her head say so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

She doesn't think or she doesn't care. At this point she's looking for any excuse because the voices in her head say so.

You had to remind us and make the discussion moot?

Sigh.

[IanPolaris]

sphinxess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't see Leliana as being anti-mage. Her comment about not allowing Kirkwall to fall to magic had to do with her not wanting to see an exalted march ordered against the city. Basicly if the Kirkwall circle rebelled and sucessfully took over the city, the exalted march would purge the entire city just to be safe. Thats what Leliana wants to avoid and why she made that statement.

She seemed very anti-mage to me (and completely unlike DAO Lelianna).  It wasn't just that comment but the snooty, "we've tolerated those that wanted to superate from the chantry" and other comments about mages.  It really turned me off to Lelianna and made me wish I did leave her in Lothering.  Srsly.

-Polaris

I think she expected the circle would have to be annuled eventually <due to those outside forces> and they were trying to get the Templar forces in place to crush it and send a statement <like Meredith having the Viscount powers> but Meredith pulled the trigger too soon and the other circles found out that the Right of Annulment is  now called for even things mad bomber mages do.
.

Agreed which accentuates my point.  Lelianna seems very, very hardline anti-mage (a far cry from the bard who pleaded for mercy for a bloodmage).  Why do the Devs seem insist on feeding their NPCs anti-mage pills (or making them unlikeable corruptions if mages).  If feels like we (the players) are being punished for overwhelming picking the mages in DAO.

-Polaris

[Camenae]

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

She doesn't think or she doesn't care. At this point she's looking for any excuse because the voices in her head say so.

You had to remind us and make the discussion moot?

Sigh.

That's me. Devourer of Dreams.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

The very fact that it was a magic explosion would have people up in arms alone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith
was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people
would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and
Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think
the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it
omgggggg!"

Ideally, the duty of the Templars is to protect people from mages, but also protect mages from people. It's not their thing to give in to popular hatred.
Ideally, Meredith should have publically executed Anders and made it clear that he was acting alone.

The problem however (barring the idol <_<), is that Meredith thinks she is the ruler of Kirkwall, when she isn't supposed to be.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[IanPolaris]

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The problem however (barring the idol <_<), is that Meredith thinks she is the ruler of Kirkwall, when she isn't supposed to be.

Bingo.  Meridith wants to be countess so bad she can taste it, and it's costing her noble support.  There is a reason why Templar/Chantry and Secular authority are supposed to be seperate as the Seneschal kindly explains at length in Act 3.  Basically Meridith is playing politics when she isn't supposed to do that.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

Yes, but then again people at large don't like easy answers.
Just like there are people who think the Kennedy assassination was a government/mob conspiracy, or George Bush was behind 9/11, there would be people that would refuse to accept Anders acted alone.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Whether it was legal or not I'd say she was well within her right to do it anyway. Recent history in the city and surounding area uncoverd many instances of mages gone bad. One mage has just blown up the chantry. As a templar commander am I going to twiddle my thumbs and assume that there is one lone terrorist, that being Anders? Or am I going to bring the hammer down. After the chantry was destroyed, a Templar commander would and should take drastic actions. Unfortunate for the innocent mages that get killed in the process but one can't stand around hoping for an investigation after something like that. If one mage can destory the chantry by himself waht are his conspirators doing? (And I sure as hell would assume he had some.)

Meridith makes no attempt to arrest or interrogate Anders to be sure that he acted alone.  Anders claims this and Orisino says the circle had nothng to do with it, and by her own lack of actions Meridith implicitly agrees especially when she says that it doesn't matter (i.e. a mage destroyed the chantry so kill all mages).

That's the clearest possible indicator that Anders did act alone (or with PC dupes).  I think in the game play it's pretty clear honestly that Anders acted alone and certainly there is no evidence to suggest a conspiracy and no attempt by Meridith to uncover one (which tells me she doesn't think there's one eiher).

-Polaris

No, I don't think it indicates she agrees.  As others said, I think it indicates she doesn't care.

As has been argued, she was rabid for it.  She got her excuse, and went for it.  If she's going to kill all the mages anyway, why waste time trying to find out if any helped Anders?

It can also be argued - and I know you don't agree - that the people of Kirkwall wouldn't care if Anders did or didn't have help.  They'd assume it was proof mages needed to die, and demand those deaths.  In this regard, again, it doesn't ultimately matter if Anders had help or not - popular opinion would likely be, he must have, kill all mages - which the Right accomplishes.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

It is true in Kirkwall if you side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3.  If you don't, then it may or may not be true, depending.

And executing the person responsible only placates the mob if the mob doesn't fear the rest of the group...  If they fear the group (and they probably would after the Chantry explodes), they will likely fear the possibility of a conspiracy.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, but then again people at large don't like easy answers.
Just like there are people who think the Kennedy assassination was a government/mob conspiracy, or George Bush was behind 9/11, there would be people that would refuse to accept Anders acted alone.

Lunatic Fringe ==/== Angry Mob

There will always be lunatic fringers and kranks that won't accept any easy answer, but by and large, they are just that.  Small numbers of Malcontents.  For the people, if you get out in front of the story, try and execute the man responsible by his own admission, most peple will grudgingly accept that justice was done.  That doesn't mean they will hold a "we love mage party" but they likely won't be an angry ant-magie mob either.  Meridith doesn't even bother to investigate or try to calm the city.

-Polaris

[Camenae]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

Yeah, but, just think of that NPR anchor who admitted to being afraid of people in airports just because they have beards and are dressed in clothing associated with traditional Muslim cultures.   And it's pretty clear to everybody who was responsible for 9/11...People don't always react rationally, especially when something happens that, pardon the pun, blows their mind.

Yes, I agree that she does want an angry anti-mage mob, no question.  I just think that she WAS likely to get it in this situation.

[Icy Magebane]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

If you side with the Templars at the begining of Act 3 and then talk to the nobles in the courtyard, they're in favor of executing or putting the mages on lockdown even then.  So... I just find it hard to believe that the commoners and other non-magical humans would have shared this enlightened viewpoint.  There are a lot of random comments from people on the street that indicate they wouldn't make the distinction between solo-Anders and an Anders-centric conspiracy.  Most people tend to believe what the Chantry tells them about mages...  although people whose family members have been taken tend to disagree with that.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 08 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, but then again people at large don't like easy answers.
Just like there are people who think the Kennedy assassination was a government/mob conspiracy, or George Bush was behind 9/11, there would be people that would refuse to accept Anders acted alone.

Lunatic Fringe ==/== Angry Mob

There will always be lunatic fringers and kranks that won't accept any easy answer, but by and large, they are just that.  Small numbers of Malcontents.  For the people, if you get out in front of the story, try and execute the man responsible by his own admission, most peple will grudgingly accept that justice was done.  That doesn't mean they will hold a "we love mage party" but they likely won't be an angry ant-magie mob either.  Meridith doesn't even bother to investigate or try to calm the city.

-Polaris

In a city that's already experienced abominations, blood mages, necromancers, apostates everywhere, mage serial killers, etc. I don't think it'd take much for that lunatic fringe to spread their crackpot theories around and stir up trouble.

[IanPolaris]

Icy Magebane wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Again this is NOT saying I think Meredith was right. But to be perfectly honest, I don't think the common people would stop to make the distinction between Anders the apostate mage and Anders the circle mage, acting alone versus acting in concert. I think the mob mentality would set in, and all they'd remember is "Mage did it omgggggg!"

That isn't necessarily true (and it wasn't true even in Kirkwall).  If you get in front of the situation quickly, arrest the man responsible (he's right there!) and try and execute him in front of the mob, the mob will be placated.  Meredith WANTS an angry anti-mage mob.  She all but says this.

-Polaris

If you side with the Templars at the begining of Act 3 and then talk to the nobles in the courtyard, they're in favor of executing or putting the mages on lockdown even then.  So... I just find it hard to believe that the commoners and other non-magical humans would have shared this enlightened viewpoint.  There are a lot of random comments from people on the street that indicate they wouldn't make the distinction between solo-Anders and an Anders-centric conspiracy.  Most people tend to believe what the Chantry tells them about mages...  although people whose family members have been taken tend to disagree with that.

If you take a neutral (not pro-mage) stance the nobles say very different things.  So talk to Knight Captain Cullen.  He bitterly complains that once the people of Kirkwall tipped their hats and gladly invited them in their homes, and now they are likely to get a door slammed in their face.  The people of Kirkwall are turning against the Templars in large part because of Meridith...which by no means means that they love mages.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, but then again people at large don't like easy answers.
Just like there are people who think the Kennedy assassination was a government/mob conspiracy, or George Bush was behind 9/11, there would be people that would refuse to accept Anders acted alone.

Lunatic Fringe ==/== Angry Mob

There will always be lunatic fringers and kranks that won't accept any easy answer, but by and large, they are just that.  Small numbers of Malcontents.  For the people, if you get out in front of the story, try and execute the man responsible by his own admission, most peple will grudgingly accept that justice was done.  That doesn't mean they will hold a "we love mage party" but they likely won't be an angry ant-magie mob either.  Meridith doesn't even bother to investigate or try to calm the city.

-Polaris

I think you give people in general too much credit.  The the people in Kirkwall specifically WAY too much credit.
 
Can't say how strongly I disagree with you here.

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, but then again people at large don't like easy answers.
Just like there are people who think the Kennedy assassination was a government/mob conspiracy, or George Bush was behind 9/11, there would be people that would refuse to accept Anders acted alone.

Lunatic Fringe ==/== Angry Mob

There will always be lunatic fringers and kranks that won't accept any easy answer, but by and large, they are just that.  Small numbers of Malcontents.  For the people, if you get out in front of the story, try and execute the man responsible by his own admission, most peple will grudgingly accept that justice was done.  That doesn't mean they will hold a "we love mage party" but they likely won't be an angry ant-magie mob either.  Meridith doesn't even bother to investigate or try to calm the city.

-Polaris

In a city that's already experienced abominations, blood mages, necromancers, apostates everywhere, mage serial killers, etc. I don't think it'd take much for that lunatic fringe to spread their crackpot theories around and stir up trouble.

The lunatic fringe of Kirkwall did a damned good job with the Qunari....  And the mages have less restraint.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Icy Magebane wrote...
If you side with the Templars at the begining of Act 3 and then talk to the nobles in the courtyard, they're in favor of executing or putting the mages on lockdown even then.

Seeing how their opinion is totally dependent on what Hawke says, I'd say that's the game showing the amount of influence the Champion has. Influence that he / she doesn't bother to use for 3 years because of sheer laziness!!!

Anyways, we do know that some noble houses have been clamped down by Meredith because they naturally wanted a Viscount, and many see what she's doing as a power grab. Add to that the Guards who love Aveline and hate that Meredith is encroaching on them (notice Templars in the Viscount's palace).  We know from Cullen that the people are assisting mages against Templars, which is unprecedented. And let's not forget mages and Templars collaborating together to oppose Meredith (FU Grace). 

Meredith was losing support everywhere.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 03:06 .

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The lunatic fringe of Kirkwall did a damned good job with the Qunari....  And the mages have less restraint.

Indeed, good point.
Incidentally siding with those lunatics is a hell of a lot of fun. The look on Varnell's face is priceless.

[Icy Magebane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
If you side with the Templars at the begining of Act 3 and then talk to the nobles in the courtyard, they're in favor of executing or putting the mages on lockdown even then.

Seeing how their opinion is totally dependent on what Hawke says, I'd say that's the game showing the amount of influence the Champion has. Influence that he / she doesn't bother to use for 3 years because of sheer laziness!!!

Anyways, we do know that some noble hosues have been clamped down by Meredith because they naturally wanted a Viscount, and many see what she's going as a power grab. Add to that the Guards who love Aveline and hate tha Meredith is encroaching on them (notice Templars in the Viscount's palace).  We know from Cullen that the people are assisting mages against Templars, which is unprecedented. And let's not forget mages and Templars collaborating together to oppose Meredith (FU Grace). 

Meredith was losing support everywhere.

Alright, maybe I didn't need to bring that up.  I was just pointing out that regular people don't tend to like or support mages unless they have a vested interest, such as a relative who'd been taken (or maybe they just like to agree with the Champion).  The nobles may not like Templars taking over the city, but that doesn't mean they would jump to the defense of mages.  I'm not seeing any indication that they'd make a distinction between Anders and the Circle after a huge beam of magical energy destroyed the Chantry and wrecked part of the city.