1072 réponses à ce sujet

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I think the OP gives to much credit to game and writers by doing any analysis on that stuff. Exept for maybe Arishok, there are no characters who act with some intentions, act logically, have any reasoning or explain to the player their agenda well. This is a game full of random events poorly sewed together, and Act 3 is just a point where all stitches drift apart. There are so many deus ex machinas out there, including Anders, that one could create an exhibition out of them, with glass cases and plates. Oh, look, that's and Prologue.1.Ogre, he is needed to made some DRAMATIC and left you with only one sibling. Hey, that one is Act.1.Petrice, a clever mechanism to make teh war with qunari in Act 2. And that one is plotarmored apostate, who you can't kill because he should capture your bro/sis in Act 3. And now let's make an PlotArmor Contest, winner can haz a new explosives which he can then use anyway he wants! Ah, seems Anders win this one. Here are your dynamite, use it well, deary.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Alright, maybe I didn't need to bring that up.  I was just pointing out that regular people don't tend to like or support mages unless they have a vested interest, such as a relative who'd been taken (or maybe they just like to agree with the Champion).  The nobles may not like Templars taking over the city, but that doesn't mean they would jump to the defense of mages.  I'm not seeing any indication that they'd make a distinction between Anders and the Circle after a huge beam of magical energy destroyed the Chantry and wrecked part of the city.

Well here I'd agree with you, hence why I think Anders is a fool who couldn't see potential allies where they were obviously there. Paranoid. Before what Anders did? I can see nobles allying with mages, even if with tself-interest in mind. If the Champion wasn't a useless good for nothing (redundancy is cool), such a coalition could have been manageable.  

But in any case, it's not the Templars' job to give in to popular demands. What Meredith should have done ideally was to execute Anders publicly and evacuate all mages to the nice island fortress that they have. I doubt an angry mob was going to try and besiege the gallows, or be succesful at it (though seeing how idiotic Meredith is when confronting the mages, she might just open the doors for them). 

[The Angry One]

I suddenly find myself wondering what it would've been like if instead of this idol business we had a hardline Meredith who in the name of her duties found herself having to protect the mages from a huge reprisal thanks to the bombing (let's say Sebastian isn't just making stupid idle threats and an army from Starkhaven comes to take care of the problem or something).

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

I suddenly find myself wondering what it would've been like if instead of this idol business we had a hardline Meredith who in the name of her duties found herself having to protect the mages from a huge reprisal thanks to the bombing (let's say Sebastian isn't just making stupid idle threats and an army from Starkhaven comes to take care of the problem or something).

I say you move this to a brand new thread and let the speculation begin!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

I suddenly find myself wondering what it would've been like if instead of this idol business we had a hardline Meredith who in the name of her duties found herself having to protect the mages from a huge reprisal thanks to the bombing (let's say Sebastian isn't just making stupid idle threats and an army from Starkhaven comes to take care of the problem or something).

Wouldn't be dark (ridiculous) enough.

The political implications would have been big. This would be the fuirst time (I presume) that a state attacks the Templars...in order to avenge a Chantry mother. Epic confusion right there.

[The Angry One]

 Eh I don't have enough thought behind it to make a topic out of it but if you want to instead go ahead.

[Huntress]

RazorrX wrote...

With the High Cleric dead, the ranking official - ie Knight Commander - takes over, acting as both until a new High Cleric can be appointed. Thus Merideth was legally able to declare the right of annulment, as she WAS in charge of the chantry at the time.

The High Cleric does NOT have to ask The Divine for permission to enact The RoA. At any given time the High Cleric could have changed her mind and told the Knight Commander to Annul the circle (it did not happen, but it could have happened). Merideth was the current acting HC for all intents and purposes (yet another nice side effect to Anders' actions, he put the worse person possible in charge).

Thus the Rite of Annulment as declared by Knight Commander Merideth was legal.

Yes with the cleric dead she could have been in charge but you are missing a HUGE point, there was no chantry left, so what ever came next was just Meredith hate towards mages. If she wanted it to find and kill the guilty one she should have asked right?  lol

Anders destory the last compromise for mages and templars and that is/was the chantry itself, good or wrong it is done. Oh and even when the cleric was still alive she  was using tranquility left, right and center without the cleric permission to do so.

Modifié par Huntress, 08 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I suddenly find myself wondering what it would've been like if instead of this idol business we had a hardline Meredith who in the name of her duties found herself having to protect the mages from a huge reprisal thanks to the bombing (let's say Sebastian isn't just making stupid idle threats and an army from Starkhaven comes to take care of the problem or something).

I say you move this to a brand new thread and let the speculation begin!!

It will probably go like this.

Meredith: "Since the writers didn't bother to develop my character, I have to somehow show that I am somewhere in the grey part of the spectrum in a clear way. I shall do so by displaying my honor by not taking advantage of our defensive position, allowing you to surprise and overtake us with ease."

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

The Angry One wrote...

I suddenly find myself wondering what it would've been like if instead of this idol business we had a hardline Meredith who in the name of her duties found herself having to protect the mages from a huge reprisal thanks to the bombing (let's say Sebastian isn't just making stupid idle threats and an army from Starkhaven comes to take care of the problem or something).

What? A game where actually people and their motives move plot instead of Glowing Red Thing? But how do we put the Awesome button in it?

[EmperorSahlertz]

A KC doesn't need the approval of a Grand Cleric to make anyone tranquil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I also enjoy to see how many people complain about the lack of impact on the story, even when they fail to realize just about how big an impact they actually had. Maybe not on the main plot (even though some choices could be made) but certainly on all the other quests. Wether or not they matter we can't tell.. Yet. I just find it funny how people were okay with the choices of DA:O, which didn't give any consequence at all, whatsoeever, and still complain about DA2.

[Paeyne]

I think I agree with Polaris when it comes to the angry mob situation, although not necessarily for his reasons.

The average citizen of Kirkwall seems to be fairly poor. Many are forced into the Coterie, still more turn to banditry, even more are just concerned with just staying alive from day to day.

I don't think the average populous would be angry (at least not initially) I think they would be terrified. Fear is already a part of their daily lives. I think they would run as far from the blast as fast as possible, perhaps even leaving the city. Why would any reasonable commoner think that a mage who could blow up the Chantry stop there.

They don't know Anders reasons, they probably only have a vague grasp of the politics, and they have very legitimate reasons to believe that there will be more destruction.

If I were a citizen of Kirkwall I would be either in my basement or getting my family out of the city. I wouldn't be angrily marching towards the nasty apocalyptic explosion.

[LobselVith8]

Benchmark wrote...

Noone can be certain what types of information Meredtith had at her disposal.

I think the problem some people have with what Meredith did is that she took advantage of the death of Grand Cleric Elthina to commit genocide against men, women, and children.

Benchmark wrote...

Reports of clandestine meetings, intercepted messages, Orsino's heart shaped diary with Anders sketches and Ander's manifesto. Until they release some type of backstory compendium, I think you should accept that Meredith was capable and warranted in making the decision she did.

She used an attack made by an ex-Grey Warden to order the death of every mage in the Kirkwall Circle, and plenty of people took issue with Meredith acting as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall (aka the dictator of the city-state).

Benchmark wrote...

It is obviously intended by the writers for both viewpoints to be valid, and the decision be only based upon the gut feelings of the player. Personally I support the Templars and I had every intention of putting the mages down after Ander's fun little tantrum.

Genocide against an entire population because of the actions of one man standing in front of her is the problem some people have with Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment.

Benchmark wrote...

I didn't completely disagree* with her. She was right, her decision was somewhat bound by her position. An entire city had just lost their spiritual heart, they would demand action. Big action. Parading one unknown apostate wasn't going to cut it. She had to answer their expectations.

Her decision was to murder innocent people for something they had nothing to do with.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

God, you just found a tiny loop hole and will argue it to death won't you. Despite Gaider saying what the situation was at the end point when she called the event. You will argue this to the death just because you can. Some people just need to go outside.

Ian is addressing the legality of the situation because Meredith requested authority from the Divine. Personally, I don't think anyone in the Chantry will care that everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice were all slain by Meredith's order. Like Cullen says, "Mages are weapons. They aren't people like you and me."

[Musou1776]

Camenae wrote...

I would think it's like in the military where the next in the chain-of-command takes over when the person in charge dies. As long as the situation lasted, this XO DOES have the legal authority to act. Whether he's going to be court-martialed later for HOW he used that authority would remain to be seen.

I would think you could just as easily be held responsible for failing to act.  The mages are engaged in Blood Magic and terrorist attacks are being made against the Chantry.  The situation keeps getting worse.  Could you expect to not take decisive action in your role as the CO of the Templars in Kirkwall in that situation without repercussions?

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

God, you just found a tiny loop hole and will argue it to death won't you. Despite Gaider saying what the situation was at the end point when she called the event. You will argue this to the death just because you can. Some people just need to go outside.

Ian is addressing the legality of the situation because Meredith requested authority from the Divine. Personally, I don't think anyone in the Chantry will care that everyone from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice were all slain by Meredith's order. Like Cullen says, "Mages are weapons. They aren't people like you and me."

Regardless this thread was because he was shut down in another thread when Gaider said she could enact the right since the Grand Cleric was killed. He in his head came up with a solution without knowing a few key things.

1. the true structure of which this situation would be per the Order's directives.

2. What Justinia's reply was if one was ever truly arrived.

That is just the starters for his "loop hole" that was shut down again by Gaider. Of which then Ian Polaris goes on to imply that the logic is flawed since it doesn't seem like something that would exist in a para-millitary type structure. All he has been trying to do is invalidate Gaider more than anything. All from an opinion that he tried to turn into a facade of a legal argument.

For starters we do not know all the laws that govern said Templars. Especially not some random player compared to the writers themselves. Especially if said poster goes as far as to presume that the Writer didn't consider something or think of some other side imagination that the player generates. A player doesn't get to make things up and stretch them in a some trumpt up plan and then get to use it as a this "Legal Proof" that the writer is wrong. That is all the thread really was for in my opinion.

P.S. I didn't ever even say she should have done it. I have never even sided with Meredith. So go bother with some "Guilty evil lady" diatribe in some other thread. That isn't what the thread was for. It was just one player trying to prove Gaider wrong. Gaider never tried to say the Annulment was right. He just said she could enact it.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 04:11 .

[IanPolaris]

The bottom line is that it's important apparently for the story for Meridith to be technically (i.e. legally) in the right, no matter what. I got that message loud and clear.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

The bottom line is that it's important apparently for the story for Meridith to be technically (i.e. legally) in the right, no matter what. I got that message loud and clear.

-Polaris

I think it's supposed to be important in order to reflect how the Chantry works.
It considers it necesarry to have a set of rules that authorise the total genocide of a given circle if those in charge deem it needed.

[Paeyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith makes no attempt to arrest or interrogate Anders to be sure that he acted alone.  Anders claims this and Orisino says the circle had nothng to do with it, and by her own lack of actions Meridith implicitly agrees especially when she says that it doesn't matter (i.e. a mage destroyed the chantry so kill all mages).

That's the clearest possible indicator that Anders did act alone (or with PC dupes).  I think in the game play it's pretty clear honestly that Anders acted alone and certainly there is no evidence to suggest a conspiracy and no attempt by Meridith to uncover one (which tells me she doesn't think there's one eiher).

-Polaris

Meridith did not care if the Circle was involved or not.  She had her excuse and she ran with it.  Her lack of action only means that she had more important things to do, annuling the circle.

Meridith's belief one way or another does not prove anything.

Anders is a demonstraited liar.  What he says does not prove anything and he has every reason to protect those that helped him (if he had help and whoever they may be).

Orsino may be lying and he may be telling the truth.  Someone in the Circle may have helped Anders without his knowledge.  That Orsino says the Circle was not involved does proves anything and he has every reason to lie if the Circle was involved and he was aware of it..

Finally, the fact that there is no evidence in the game that the Circle was involved proves nothing.  We, as the player, do not know everything that is going on behind the scenes.

We have no facts that either prove or disprove the contention that Anders worked alone.

Anything beyond that is pure conjecture, no matter what side of the argument you may fall on.

[LobselVith8]

TobiTobsen wrote...

And you would actually wait on the OK from Orlais if your were in Meredith's position, while Mages, Abominations and Demons are tearing the city apart?

No one was tearing the city-state of Kirkwall apart - Meredith ordered the Right of Annulment and handwaved the man who was actually responsible. Templars were murdering men, women, and children in an act of genocide.

TobiTobsen wrote...

She had to act immediately and not in two weeks when the letter from Val Royeaux arrived.

Meredith didn't have to order the senseless execution of an entire population of innocent people for something that Anders alone was responsible for. Even the three mages who Cullen orders not to be executed during the pro-templar Hawke scene are going to be made tranquil, as Gaider revealed the fate of mages who aren't killed during the Right in the Right of Annulment thread.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

The bottom line is that it's important apparently for the story for Meridith to be technically (i.e. legally) in the right, no matter what. I got that message loud and clear.

-Polaris

You can still say that Meredith overstepped her bounds politically. And the Chantry didn't do anything aobut it.

[LobselVith8]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

How is it irrelevant when the mages of the Kirkwall Circle are the ones who are being executed? This is central to why people have such an issue with Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall, but I doubt this discussion will reach a consensus.

I don't think you care much for the mages. In fact, aren't you the person who claimed mages aren't people?

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages aren't people. They are weapons with minds. Anyone who thinks mages are people, needs to ask themselves if Skynet is a person...  Provoking them is not a good thing, but they need to be kept under control.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  Let me say that again: The situation with the Circle is irrelevant.  The situation with the Circle is irrelevant. Bolded, just in case you cannot see it.

The only thing that matters is the fact that Meredith is the acting Grand Cleric.  And that means, when she invokes the Right of Annulment, it is legal.

How is it irrelevant when the mages of the Kirkwall Circle are the ones who are being executed? This is central to why people have such an issue with Meredith ordering the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall, but I doubt this discussion will reach a consensus.

I don't think you care much for the mages. In fact, aren't you the person who claimed mages aren't people?

AshenEndemion wrote...

Mages aren't people. They are weapons with minds. Anyone who thinks mages are people, needs to ask themselves if Skynet is a person...  Provoking them is not a good thing, but they need to be kept under control.

It was irrelevent to the conversation that was going on at the time. Stop scrolling through posts from so long ago that weren't even directed at you. It was the OP trying to side step and use excuses to evade everything but the topic he was trying to use to claim there was no legal cause to enact the Right of Annulment despite Gaider saying she could in another thread.

That player was saying that the other circle case didn't have anythign do with this one. Because Polaris was attempting to make it sound like Gregoir couldn't enact it yet that situation was supposedly more "dire" than the one in Kirkwall. It was him trying to evade and use a past case that doesn't fit this one at all.

Just leave the thread if you weren't there for it don't try to change the topics now to just make Meredith a villain. No one was painting her a hero. You are just trying to turn this into a completely different topic. There is another thread for that already. Go there and leave this one alone.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Regardless this thread was because he was shut down in another thread when Gaider said she could enact the right since the Grand Cleric was killed.

Except the fact that the Divine was requested to give Meredith the authority to grant the Right of Annulment wasn't addressed in that thread, as the OP stated.

Torax wrote...

P.S. I didn't ever even say she should have done it. I have never even sided with Meredith. So go bother with some "Guilty evil lady" diatribe in some other thread.

I never claimed you said Meredith should have enacted the Right, I said that I doubt the Chantry or the Divine would care about the legality of the Right based on what Leliana says in "Faith."

[IanPolaris]

Torax,

The question of legality is a very important one actually and it's clear that DG want's Meridith's action to be legal no matter what so I should have guessed at what he'd say. It's very important because it touches on the crux of why all the circles rebelled. It just got proven in the crudest possible way that mages have no rights and no safeguards under the Chantry, and their very lives exist soley on the whims of Knight Commanders that have little if any oversight.

It's the lack of oversight that's a critical aspect here. DG's posts making Meridith's actions legal actually make the Templars look worse, not better.

-Polaris