127 réponses à ce sujet

[Deified Data]

Just curious.

My "canon" Warden (i.e. the Warden I will always import, til the end of time) was a mild-mannered mage, a hugely sympathetic elf who was ripped from his home at an early age and has spent his entire life coming to terms with half the world hating him for his magic and the other for his race. He was not a blood mage - he was beyond temptation, as all strong-willed mages must be. He dabbled in certain "esoteric" schools of magic to become a Shapeshifter, but he never trafficed with demons. He used his powers responsibly, but was never afraid to use them to protect his friends. He enjoys life outside the Circle and the freedom it brings, but still recognizes that the Circle serves a purpose. All in all, he's not the sort of mage you'd ever encounter in DAII.

Encounter after encounter saw every mage resort to blood magic to serve their ends, whether it be self defense or mere sadistic glee. I went into DAII expecting to support the mages, and did so for the vast majority of the game...until the true unbalance began to manifest itself. Mages were proving time and time again that they abuse their freedom, or would do so if given the opportunity. Most of them wanted their freedom, but some, like Tahrone and Anders, wanted more: to destroy civilization and replace it with a new magocracy. The moderates among the mages were either killed, tranquilized, or recruited by the blood mages. Anders said "There is no room for compromise", and meant it. The world would either be for mages, or they would all be dead.

The Western world sympathizes heavily with the plight of the oppressed and down-trodden. It's the "underdog" effect. We invariably choose the side of personal liberty over oppression, and I think this personal inclination is what led me to initially side with the mages. I saw an oppressed people, and my heroic inclination was to free them. Now, though, I'm not so sure. Cullen's right - mages aren't people like you or I. They're walking timebombs, some more volatile than others. They can't always help being possessed - it's not always a choice they can make.

Consider this example: A group of people, susceptile to evil suggestion, who cannot always help committing great atrocities when allowed to run free. They say they're beyond temptation, and some of them are, but the rest...? There's no way of knowing until something horrible happens.

Pedophiles/sociopaths/serial killers, right? Say an individual is born with a predaliction for that sort of thing, a mental illness. Do we allow them to be free, even though it's "not their fault" they were born that way? If a psychotic individual gets well under the effects of medication, he may eventually be released. Sometimes, they simply stop taking the medication - it happens all the time. The demon/psychosis was simply too powerful to resist alone.

I don't mean to offend by comparing sensitive real-world issues with a fantasy setting, but the comparison begs to be made. Where is all the sypathy for the mage Kelder, who kidnapped elven children for being "too beautiful"? He claims he was demon-possessed, but in fact he was psychotic. I'm sure most of you ended up killing him, right? He deserved to die for being born that way? Is being a psychotic worse than being a mage, or vice versa, when both are conditions that are present since birth, and cannot be remedied?

I'll make no judgement yet. Discuss.

[RPGrogue]

I pitty (they are troubled people) them more now, but I do no like or dislike them more now. And if I had the option I would send the psycho to a mental ward, but he wanted me to kill him so I did, otherwise I would have tried to help him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deified Data wrote...
The Western world sympathizes heavily with the plight of the oppressed and down-trodden.

Right.


Anyways, I am not so sure that Anders wanted a magocracy. Seems to me that he, losing control to Justice, was not thinking farther than his nose and just wanted a revolt, without any specific plan or vision in mind. Rather he was operating on rethoric and manichean short sighted idiocy inherited by Justice. If Anders was really planning for a magocracy and gathering followers, I would have felt he was less of a fool.

My opinion of mages had not changed. Though how mages were portrayed in DA2 changed my opinion of the game, but that's another topic.  I am still in favor of gradual reforms and integration of  Circles to states (economically, militarily and perhaps politically) instead of a religious organization. But they should remain under surveillance and regulation. I wouldn't mind having a police made up of mages to watch over others, while it is being watched by templar like warriors subordianted to the state. 

[Sesshomaru47]

I was all for the Mages until Anders decided he would blow up a church full of people killing them and probably countless others who got caught in the debris field. Whoever said that it would be a natural decision for the gamer to side with the mages hasn't been watching much in the way of current world affairs...The mages can go stuff themselves. I should note that I played as a mage...

[HolyWarrior21]

I initially stood with the mages to protect bethany, as i sure as hell wasn't gonna let meredith kill her. I feel that while the circle is an injustice, its a necessary one. Maybe some changes are needed, and maybe mages need a little bit more freedom, but thedas will allways need her templars, as there will allways be one bad egg out of every dozen. Do i pity mages? Yes, because magic is a curse, something u cannot rid yourself of and it will consume you if left unchecked.

However, every second mage resorting to blood magic eventually lead to my sympathy all but running out. In the words of Hawke "Someday I wish i could go one week without meeting an insane mage. just. one week!"

[Deified Data]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Deified Data wrote...
The Western world sympathizes heavily with the plight of the oppressed and down-trodden.

Right.

The patronization is unnecessary - the West may not always stay true to such ideals, but we all like to think we do. This applies to gamers just as much as it does to policy-makers.

Edit: FYI, I'm basing my current Hawke on Xanatos.

Modifié par Deified Data, 07 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Barefoot Warrior]

Not sure what to think on this one, good topic. I'm neutral where the Mages are concerned. My thinking is, the Mages were confined or imprisoned if you will, golden cage or not and that some of them felt they had to fight to be free of control. I can understand that, but some turned to blood magic to justify the means. I always felt that the Mages should govern themselves, just my thinking, but the other side of this was, some Templars were no better. More complicated then that of course, the long and the short of it is, there is bad or evil on both sides. It is one of those issues that I doubt would ever be resolved, at least while the Chantry was around and using its theology to control the masses. In this case, even elements of the Chantry felt justified in using unethical means to keep control or cause instability. Hope I'm making sense here, but maybe you get the idea.

[Camenae]

In DA: O my thought was: WTF is these templars' problem? Mages are harmless.

But now I think that while the Kirkwall circle is definitely doing it wrong, some kind of oversight is definitely needed. Not for the mages who are level-headed and can control themselves, but those who are not have to be watched so they aren't a danger to themselves or others.

I don't think there's any doubt that even GOOD people can lose control in spite of all good intentions. That's why we need a system outside of themselves in place for just when these instances happen. Normal people have the police, the court system and whatnot, mages need something too. Maybe it shouldn't be the Templars, but there should be SOMETHING.

When Professor Xavier was under the influence of another mutant, he was on the verge of TELEPATHICALLY KILLING EVERY HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. Cyclops lost control of his powers and started laser-blasting a train station full of people. And these are the good guys! These incidents are arguably not their fault! But is a normal person capable of the same level of destruction? On average I would say no.

Even a normal person has to live under laws and oversight. We have licensure requirements for carrying guns, for example. I don't see why it would be wrong to temper "freedom" with a little bit of objective control. After all, everyone else is subject to the same.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Not going to go on about the first part of the post. Too touchy. 

Deified Data wrote...
Edit: FYI, I'm basing my current Hawke on Xanatos.

Awesome! Physically as well?
Goatees in DA2 kind of suck, but maybe Thrask's beard might work.

[Rifneno]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I was all for the Mages until Anders decided he would blow up a church full of people killing them and probably countless others who got caught in the debris field. Whoever said that it would be a natural decision for the gamer to side with the mages hasn't been watching much in the way of current world affairs...The mages can go stuff themselves. I should note that I played as a mage...

So because one man killed a bunch of innocents, you want to kill a much bigger group of innocents.  Yeah, that totally makes sense.

As for the original question, I didn't really have any in DAO.  I should have, but I didn't really put any throught into their situation.  I was too enthralled with the main focuses of the story.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not going to go on about the first part of the post. Too touchy. 

Deified Data wrote...
Edit: FYI, I'm basing my current Hawke on Xanatos.

Awesome! Physically as well?
Goatees in DA2 kind of suck, but maybe Thrask's beard might work.

Now I imagine Johnathan Frakes voicing manHawke.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Strengthen. Definitely strengthen.

The thing is that while both sides in Kirkwall are utterly nuts, the mages' crazy is born of desperation and basically being backed into a corner. The templars' crazy is born of systematic oppression, prejudice, and hate. Though I thought they were all crazypants by the end, I have a lot more sympathy for the mages' reasons for growing violent than I do for the templars.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 08 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not going to go on about the first part of the post. Too touchy. 

Deified Data wrote...
Edit: FYI, I'm basing my current Hawke on Xanatos.

Awesome! Physically as well?
Goatees in DA2 kind of suck, but maybe Thrask's beard might work.

Now I imagine Johnathan Frakes voicing manHawke.

Since Hawke ends up being pretty much of a failure, with no opportunity to be a magnificient bastard, I am glad Johnathan Frakes is not voicing him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[NeroSparda]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I was all for the Mages until Anders decided he would blow up a church full of people killing them and probably countless others who got caught in the debris field. Whoever said that it would be a natural decision for the gamer to side with the mages hasn't been watching much in the way of current world affairs...The mages can go stuff themselves. I should note that I played as a mage...

So you murdered the mages that had no part in that actions that is not Anders. (I am assuming your Hawke had no part in that, am I right?)

[Deified Data]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not going to go on about the first part of the post. Too touchy. 

Deified Data wrote...
Edit: FYI, I'm basing my current Hawke on Xanatos.

Awesome! Physically as well?
Goatees in DA2 kind of suck, but maybe Thrask's beard might work.

I used the slightly fuller version - the midpoint between the "Thrask" and the "Duncan". The game doesn't give me many opportunities to pull a full-on Xanatos Gambit, but hey, I try.

[ladyluck278]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Strengthen. Definitely strengthen.

The thing is that while both sides in Kirkwall are utterly nuts, the mages' crazy is born of desperation and basically being backed into a corner. The templars' crazy is born of systematic oppression, prejudice, and hate. Though I thought they were all crazypants by the end, I have a lot more sympathy for the mages' reasons for growing violent than I do for the templars.

Born of desperation??? My mage is awesome without using blood magic. The mages in this episode lost their integrity when they used the templars as an EXCUSE to go to blood magic. Why couldn't they have done it where there was a group of mages that would come to the support of hawke that didn't use blood magic. Yes i hate the templars even more but to me that is NO excuse to turn to blood magic. They can be very powerful in a group without blood magic. Even the first enchanter used it and turned on us when we helped him against the templars.

This is the only place that i feel that DA2 fails us. In my opinion aside from anders and the hawke family i have found, no mage, that is in combat to not be using blood magic. Even Merill has summoned demons. When i played my first mage i was going 1000% in support of the mages until i saw that almost all of them used blood magic. Too much so. If a mage that can be very powerful in DA2 has to summon a room full of demons for a group of 4 people, LMAO, then they are truly weak. I ended up supporting the templars with any additional mages i made because of the blatent use of blood magic and even orsino using it.

hope this makes sense but it would be awesome if DA2 did a addon that allowed mages to fight that didn't summon demons. I got tired of all the demons and missed my wimpy mage in Origins. Because of it i will not play another mage in DA2. Have played it twice with mages one sided with the templars and one with the mages. Siding with the mages didn't seem to matter as Orsino also used blood magic and turned on everyone when he could have just "won" over meredith and helped us kill her but oh no he had to become a demon.

[ladyluck278]

NeroSparda wrote...

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I was all for the Mages until Anders decided he would blow up a church full of people killing them and probably countless others who got caught in the debris field. Whoever said that it would be a natural decision for the gamer to side with the mages hasn't been watching much in the way of current world affairs...The mages can go stuff themselves. I should note that I played as a mage...

So you murdered the mages that had no part in that actions that is not Anders. (I am assuming your Hawke had no part in that, am I right?)

Whether or not they had part in the actions of what Anders did I "turned" on them because of the use of blood magic by 99% of the mages including orsino. Had made that decision BEFORE Anders did what he did.

[Rifneno]

ladyluck278 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Strengthen. Definitely strengthen.

The thing is that while both sides in Kirkwall are utterly nuts, the mages' crazy is born of desperation and basically being backed into a corner. The templars' crazy is born of systematic oppression, prejudice, and hate. Though I thought they were all crazypants by the end, I have a lot more sympathy for the mages' reasons for growing violent than I do for the templars.

Born of desperation??? My mage is awesome without using blood magic. The mages in this episode lost their integrity when they used the templars as an EXCUSE to go to blood magic. Why couldn't they have done it where there was a group of mages that would come to the support of hawke that didn't use blood magic. Yes i hate the templars even more but to me that is NO excuse to turn to blood magic. They can be very powerful in a group without blood magic. Even the first enchanter used it and turned on us when we helped him against the templars. 

1.  You cannot compare the player character's combat abilities to the average mage.  Or human, or warrior, or anything at all.  Just... No.

2.  That's not why they turned to it.  http://dragonage.wik...e_Band_of_Three  tl;dr version:  The Tevinters, when they held the city, screwed it up so bad that it's basically so, for lack of a better term, "haunted" that it pretty much inevitably drives mages either insane or evil.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ladyluck278 wrote...

Born of desperation??? My mage is awesome without using blood magic. The mages in this episode lost their integrity when they used the templars as an EXCUSE to go to blood magic. 

Yes, of desperation.

The apostates and rebels you meet in DA2 are not wealthy Hightown nobles like Hawke.  They are former Circle mages, chafing under Meredith's grasp.  They have few allies, fewer options, and no legal recourse against the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle.  They are hunted and killed when they run, and made Tranquil for dissention, rebellion, or the sick predations of someone like Alrik if they stay even though it's against Chantry law.  The Grand Cleric and the Viscount will not lift a finger to help them.  And if they seek aid from family or friends, they put all those people in mortal danger.

I'd say turning to blood magic in those circumstances counts as an act of desperation.  A cornered animal will use any weapons at its disposal, and humans are no different.  I'm not saying using blood magic is a good idea at all, or justifiable.  But it's understandable, and IMO much more sympathetic than why the templars are doing what they're doing.

[ladyluck278]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

ladyluck278 wrote...

Born of desperation??? My mage is awesome without using blood magic. The mages in this episode lost their integrity when they used the templars as an EXCUSE to go to blood magic. 

Yes, of desperation.

The apostates and rebels you meet in DA2 are not wealthy Hightown nobles like Hawke.  They are former Circle mages, chafing under Meredith's grasp.  They have few allies, fewer options, and no legal recourse against the abuses of the Kirkwall Circle.  They are hunted and killed when they run, and made Tranquil for dissention, rebellion, or the sick predations of someone like Alrik if they stay even though it's against Chantry law.  The Grand Cleric and the Viscount will not lift a finger to help them.  And if they seek aid from family or friends, they put all those people in mortal danger.

I'd say turning to blood magic in those circumstances counts as an act of desperation.  A cornered animal will use any weapons at its disposal, and humans are no different.  I'm not saying using blood magic is a good idea at all, or justifiable.  But it's understandable, and IMO much more sympathetic than why the templars are doing what they're doing.

Ok I can understand a few of them or maybe the majority but looking back it appeared to me that ALL, at least all the ones my mage encountered used Blood magic. Meredith was NUTS and power hungry and needed to be taken down even before she was, however, i got tired of fighting demons and NOT the mages themselves. Just seemed like too much use of blood magic. The Grand Cleric needed to get involved before hand.

Yes people will do strange things in desperation but i guess i didn't explain my feelings good enough. I think that DA2 could have taken a different approach and at least NOT make it appear that ALL mages used Blood magic. I was very disappointed too at the end of the entire fight after siding with the mages and taking down Meredith that I actually felt the templars thought she had murdered Meredith. When you side with the templars you become Viscount..so then make it seem more glorius when you side with the mages.  I still like it better in Origins where only some turned to Blood magic to obtain their goals.

I think a cool addition would be being able to join Anders in the underground if you wanted.

Modifié par ladyluck278, 08 avril 2011 - 12:31 .

[Kinaori]

I found I had to get past my knee-jerk reaction to Anders' actions. He was just one messed up man; that doesn't change the fact that mages are essentially imprisoned, taken from their families, and threatened with death or lobotomy regularly, and are never even allowed to "serve man" as the Chantry says they should. Anyone raised in an environment like that is susceptible to going cuckoo, I should think.

There's a reason the mental health system in America went through sweeping reforms. And prison ends up being gladiator school for young inmates. (Speaking from experience, going to a mental institution made me nuttier than I was before I walked in the door ) But at least inmates have to actually do something wrong before they are imprisoned (you don't assume that everyone around you is a criminal, do you?); mages were merely born that way. Guilt is assumed. You don't do that with the mentally ill, and they were born that way too. Sure, there's some bad people out there. But by that logic you should lock away anyone that looks at you funny.

All gifts and abilities should be nurtured in a healthy way to prevent them from being misused.

All that said - everyone has weak times, and mages can be a doorway at such times in ways that regular folks can't; all the more important they have support and someone who can help them, that they can trust to get through it without succumbing. And if they do, they're criminals at that point. They need support systems and people to recognize the issue before it happens.

So, strengthened it. You see more of what happens when control measures are extreme.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ladyluck278 wrote...
Yes people will do strange things in desperation but i guess i didn't explain my feelings good enough. I think that DA2 could have taken a different approach and at least NOT make it appear that ALL mages used Blood magic. I was very disappointed too at the end of the entire fight after siding with the mages and taking down Meredith that I actually felt the templars thought she had murdered Meredith. When you side with the templars you become Viscount..so then make it seem more glorius when you side with the mages.  I still like it better in Origins where only some turned to Blood magic to obtain their goals.

Well, as Rifneno pointed out, don't forget that Kirkwall is basically the Hellmouth of Thedas.  The Veil is thin, and mages and non-mages alike in Kirkwall are suceptible to the influence of demons.  Add that to the potential influence of the lyrium idol, and is it any wonder that everyone is utterly bat****?

[Aigyl]

My pro-mage flag died in DA2. 'twas a sad moment

The mages were, not given a good light exactly. They kept using blood magic and turning into abominations. Every. Single. Time.

All it does is prove the Templars right. If mages keep turning to mind-control magic and demons, they will never earn the trust of the public and change the perception that they need to be locked up. Ever.

In the end I sided with the Templars, though that was more for practical reasons (keep Kirkwall stable, try to minimise casualties, etc.) than thinking that every single mage needed to die.

Modifié par Aigyl, 08 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[88mphSlayer]

weaken

[PantheraOnca]

Strengthen. To use you example, we don't lock up "Pedophiles/sociopaths/serial killers" until they've at least attempted to do something.