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[Sjofn]

Gilsa wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

In DA2, while I still feel bad for the mages and feel the Circle is a flawed way of dealing with it that needed to change, I absolutely get why Mages Can't Have Nice Things. So actually, I guess it didn't so much weaken my sympathy for mages as it strengthened my sympathy for the templars. Yes, there are Ser Alriks, and there needed to be a better safeguard against dicks like that, but there are also Ser Thrasks, who are pretty much what I consider the ideal templar: aware they have an important job to protect regular people, but also aware that mages are people too.

Pretty much this. The Circle wasn't really working the way it was set up, but it was better than nothing. Anders still got punished for what he did, but I ultimately sided with the mages because Meredith's annulment was going too far. (Up to that point, I had been more sympathetic towards the templars.) If you click on one of the templars in Act 3 (in front of the Gallows), he mentions that the Right of Annulment has already been called for. Meredith's wheels were already in motion long before the chantry blew up. This was not something Hawke was going to be able to fix on her own so I dealt with the short-term consequences. Hopefully people like Cullen and others can step up for a better long-term solution. I like how Cullen appeared to be narrow minded in DAO and still showed a lot of growth in seeing the balance that was necessary for the templar/mage conflict.

That has generally been my end game thinking as well, that SOMEthing is needed because mages are so dangerous, but Meredith is going to far in the wrong direction, plus annuling the Circle for crime commited by an apostate, who is sitting there waiting for you to murderknife him, that's way too far, and I side with the mages in the end. 

I also really liked Cullen's growth, and I actually hope we see  him again in DA3 (or a DLC, or whatever).

[hanoobken]

For me, Anders ruined it all.

Yes Meredith should be replaced in my opinion, which is why a lot of templars sided with the mages, even they could see Meredith's folly.

Whatever sympathy I had for Anders and his "Justice" was gone after he killed the grand cleric. I am no fan of religious institutes, but of all the people in the chantry, the grand cleric was the only person who was trying to balance things out with reason. Her murder made me kill Anders almost every time (and I finished 5 times already). Anders "Justified" why mages should be kept in the circle, of course under a different leadership.

Even Gregoir, knight commander of the templars in the Ferelden circle was willing to see reason beyond the usual hatred between mages and templars.

Anders corrupted a benevolent spirit, unlike Wynne who also had a spirit living in her. He's just like any other mage who has tasted freedom, give them a little and they want more, when the fact is that templars do serve a purpose.

For me Anders was just like any bloodmage using possession as a convenient excuse for the crimes he committed. (It was justice that killed the girl he claims, when the truth is he let himself go and let a corrupted justice take over.) In the end he even admitted that it was not "Justice's" will to kill the grand cleric, he made himself the judge and the jury and he is the sole person responsible for his actions.

For all his talk about Justice, he hasn't convinced me whose main character is a mage.

[Icinix]

Weakened.

The ones I saved were usually ungrateful and bitter...and usually went to blood anyway. They also killed innocents.

Certain ones I saved or treated with respect in DAO also came back to bite me in the arse.

You had your chance mages. You blew it.

[TobiTobsen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Weaken. Because every time I backed a mage, it bit me in the ass. They killed and kidnapped my family. They turned into Abominations and attacked me, you name it. And that was on my pro-mage playthrough.

Samson says it best in Act 3. He's never once seen a mage resist resorting to blood magic once things get the slightest bit difficult.

The only two mages that wasn't true for was Bethany and Emile (the later of which lies about being a Blood mage to pick up chicks)

I support that.

The argument that I shouldn't judge all mages in the Gallows for the stuff the mages do that I meet... I never see what's going on in the Gallows. I can only judge the mages based on what I see and that is the fact that every mage turns bat**** insane as soon as you turn you back on them.
Who says that the mages in the Gallows are completly innocent? Why shouldn't they be just another cult of blood mages waiting for their chance? I don't see evidence for either side so i judge the mages based on what I experience.

[Ulfsark]

It strengthened it.  I think the mages circle is a little too strict.  It should be a circle of learning, to help young mages control their powers, and nothing more.  If the templars are going to be a mandatory check to balance the mages, then who is the check to balance the templars?  The templars have the right of annulment, what do the mages have?  The templars can make mages tranquil, what do the mages have?

Any people that is opressed to the breaking point will resort to whatever means required to regain their freedom, and that is what's happening in DA2.  (Anders on the other hand, went off the deep end, and my female rogue who was in a relationship with him certainly did kill him after his little fireworks show).

Mages should be free, once they have passed their harrowing, or perhaps a second test.  The templars should be blood mage hunters, a police force, but not thinly vieled slave-masters that blame and control the entire group for the actions of a few.

[Big I]

DA2 had no effect on my sympathy for mages. I was sympathetic in DA:O, and remained so in DA2.


What DA2 mages did was break immersion for me. It seemed to me that in order to make people conflicted about supporting mages they purposefully made every mage in the game a bad guy. Every mage except for Hawke and Bethany (and maybe Feynriel and Marethari) is either a blood mage, an abomination, Anders, or Orsino. I found this completely unbelievable - the idea that escaped circle mages, with no background in using blood magic and years of being taught that blood magic is evil, would/can use it at the drop of a hat was ludicrous. I just put it down to Hawke being incredibly unlucky in who they meet, and blamed it all on the Enigma of Kirkwall.


Mages should be free.

[Knightly_BW]

It didn't effect my feelings for over all Dragon Age. I wasn't actually tied to any group (even nearly all my DA:O runs done by mages). I guess this is a side effect of becoming a Warden. I was thinking both parties have rights or wrongs about their view of their situation.

Kirkwall is just a city and what happened there during my adventures made me my judgement according to those events. Which makes me favor Templars more but that idea won't carry on next game. That decision was more about order vs. chaos tho'. If I'd be free to choosely I would prefer to act as a peace maker between two groups. With Grand Cleric out of picture (thanks to Anders) that peace maker role what Kirkwall lacked terribly.

In future if we see another stage of Templars/Mage war I will judge according to situation again. Probably will force the factions (as much as story/mechanics allowed) to find a better solution to situation; More freedom to mages/ less tryrany to templars.

[YunikoYokai5]

I was always a mage sympathiser, DA:2 has strengthened it.

I see the oppression of mages like what some states in America has done with Pitbull terriers. The race is being attacked from all sides due to a small minority. Pitbulls are actually really good family dogs, but ANY dog can turn dangerous (Labradors, terriers, collies etc). Its all about training: bad training = aggressive dog and yet governments are too lazy to ban certain PEOPLE from owning them, and instead destroy or remove any of the species from their states, even when 95-98% of the pitbull population are friendly.

The mages are being oppressed due to a minority turning to blood magic and demons in desperation or anger at their treatment. I may not be a mage, but if someone started oppressing me, I would fight back. I don't see why mages are the only people locked up: anyone who takes up arms is dangerous, to a lesser or greater degree. Thugs are allowed to wander the streets causing trouble and yet mages are locked up tight for doing nothing? Magic is just another weapon like a sword or a crossbow.

Cullen says mages are weapons: what is a mercenary then? What is a soldier in an army? Are they not weapons as well?

Modifié par YunikoYokai5, 08 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[Rifneno]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I was all for the Mages until Anders decided he would blow up a church full of people killing them and probably countless others who got caught in the debris field. Whoever said that it would be a natural decision for the gamer to side with the mages hasn't been watching much in the way of current world affairs...The mages can go stuff themselves. I should note that I played as a mage...

So because one man killed a bunch of innocents, you want to kill a much bigger group of innocents.  Yeah, that totally makes sense.

As for the original question, I didn't really have any in DAO.  I should have, but I didn't really put any throught into their situation.  I was too enthralled with the main focuses of the story.

Yes they were so innocent when I went in there and the First Enchanter turned into a Flesh Golem not too mention the other Blood Mages you fight in and along the way to get to him and all the demons. Yeah they were as innocent as cute little bunnies and kittens. Demonic ones...

Of course they'd do anything they could to fight back.  YOU'RE TRYING TO MURDER THEM FOR SOMETHING SOMEONE ELSE DID.

Number of farmers seen in Dragon Age:  I can't remember one.
Number of dragons seen in Dragon Age:  Counting the little ones?  Hundreds.

So is it because there's less farmers, pretty much the only source of food, than there are members of a species so rare they were thought to be extinct?  Or is it because that we're playing a video game that sets us on a pre-determined path full of challenging combat encounters and that precludes taking a scenic route where you get to have a chat about the weather with the seven million people in the city that are utterly pointless for Hawke to interact with?

Huntress wrote...

The pedophile dies in my game 100% of the time, he uses " demon" as a scape root, to explain his sickness and perhaps gain some simpathy from you.

I don't think that was the case.  He didn't want to use it as an excuse, he virtually begs Hawke to kill him.  Why purpose does an excuse serve when you want to be killed?  I'm sure he honestly does believe it's a demon.  Thedas doesn't exactly have advanced medical understanding to diagnose schizophrenia.  Hell I'm sure in the olden days of real life many schizophrenic symptoms were blamed on demons and they don't even exist in our world.  Understanding what was truly wrong with him is at least a thousand years ahead of their culture, it's only natural a demon would be blamed for him hearing voices and such.

That said, killing him is the best solution for everyone.  Him included.  If they can't understand his illness, they sure can't treat it.

Icy Magebane wrote...

I agree with Halo Quea... the Mage Hawke experience tends to be rather shallow. You are always working from second-hand information and it's up to the player to make a judgment without ever being inside the Gallows. You have Anders the extremist and Fenris the other extremist chirping in your ears, and some examples of extremely corrupt/dangerous mages and Templars. Hell, you don't even get tempted by demons and just take the blood mage spec with no consequences or trials leading up to it...

If you were arrested day one as a mage, that would have made the experience so much deeper....

I disagree.  It's a nice idea, but it wouldn't change anything.  The player themselves doesn't automatically understand what the character is going through.  We get that many things are horrible but it doesn't really sink in, IMO, until it hits close to something we've gone through personally.

Asdara wrote.

I'm sympathetic, but when I'm supposed to be the hero, I also need to be pragmatic. Idealism will get you eaten by Flemeth.

That is an awesome quote.

AshenEndemion wrote...

Though I'm highly skeptical that widespread abuse takes place. I think it's a ploy to gain sympathy, rather than a credible complaint.

What a coincedence.  I'm highly skeptical that free mages pose even 1% of the danger that the Chantry's fearmongering bull**** says.

[Talogrungi]

Weaken. Massively.

In the events of DA:O it was easy to like the mages. The Templars were boorish, aggressive and pompous, and the mages were downtrodden and persecuted .. one couldn't help but root for the little guy.

DA2 shone a different light on the subject. We got to see mages scheming, plotting, sacrificing innocents .. and ultimately proving (at least to my eyes) that many of them were guilty of exactly that which the Templars have been accusing them of since DA:O.

Yes, we had some cruel/crazy Templars and some kind/noble Mages too, but with the benefit of hindsight I am now in firm support of the Templars and the Circle. Tranquility is too cruel, but Maleficarum on the streets is obviously not a solution either.

The Circles must be maintained!

[cihimi]

Anders weakened my resolve to aid the mages...aside from the crazy demon fanatics <sigh>...

[Iosev]

If you treat magi like animals, caged and separated from the rest of humanity from childhood, with the constant fear of death or Tranquility looming over their heads, is it really any surprise that many grow up treating non-magi in the exact same manner? How can you expect magi to use their powers for the benefit of the world, when that very same world fears them, and has no compassion for the oppression they've faced?

Modifié par arcelonious, 08 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[ReallyRue]

I think I have a more balanced opinion on them now.

I no longer see them as oppressed innocents, but I still don't think the Chantry-controlled Circle is right. Likewise, I know that the Templars are a blend of zealots and right-minded people.

[Rifneno]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Encounter after encounter saw every mage resort to blood magic to serve their ends, whether it be self defense or mere sadistic glee. I went into DAII expecting to support the mages, and did so for the vast majority of the game...until the true unbalance began to manifest itself. Mages were proving time and time again that they abuse their freedom, or would do so if given the opportunity. Most of them wanted their freedom, but some, like Tahrone and Anders, wanted more: to destroy civilization and replace it with a new magocracy. The moderates among the mages were either killed, tranquilized, or recruited by the blood mages. Anders said "There is no room for compromise", and meant it. The world would either be for mages, or they would all be dead.

I think Bioware was a bit heavy handed with the whole mages-will-always-resort-to-blood-magic hammer. But to answer your thread question "did it strengthen or weaken my sympathy for mages?" I'd say it weaked it. How could it not weaken my sympathy when the overwhelming majority of mages are self-serving, abominated, jerkfaces.

But are you, and anyone else who answered similarly, taking the thin veil into account?

I'm not trying to argue your opinion, it's an honest question.  I think most people who take that stance aren't taking into account that the whole game takes place in a city where demons can influence even non-mages' minds.  Kirkwall mages aren't represenative of mages as a whole, but for some reason they felt the need to hide that fact in some obscure codex entries.

[Annarl]

This would be an interesting poll.

For me it weaken my sympathy for mages. But I still would like to see the Circles change. I would like to see them function more like schools than prisons.

Modifié par omearaee, 08 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm not trying to argue your opinion, it's an honest question.  I think most people who take that stance aren't taking into account that the whole game takes place in a city where demons can influence even non-mages' minds.  Kirkwall mages aren't represenative of mages as a whole, but for some reason they felt the need to hide that fact in some obscure codex entries.

Of course they hid this little detail. Otherwise people might actually overwhelmly support the mages yet again despite an incredibly skewed and one-sided (even per the Devs) acount of mages.  The Authors are clearly upset that so many people supported the mages in DAO so apparently all (or at least the overwhelming majority) must be demonized.  They even go so far in the final battle with Meridith to freeze you out so the Devs (using Meridith's voice) can chastise everyone for supporting mages whether you in fact did or not.

DA2 is incredbily heavy handed on the part of the writers.

-Polaris

[Cutlass Jack]

Rifneno wrote...

But are you, and anyone else who answered similarly, taking the thin veil into account?

I'm not trying to argue your opinion, it's an honest question.  I think most people who take that stance aren't taking into account that the whole game takes place in a city where demons can influence even non-mages' minds.  Kirkwall mages aren't represenative of mages as a whole, but for some reason they felt the need to hide that fact in some obscure codex entries.

Doesn't matter. I wasn't asked to pick between Mages and Temlars as a whole. I was asked to pick between Mages and Templars in the city. If the veil is indeed thinner there, then if anything that reinforces the need for Templar oversight there.

Not Templar abuses of course, but letting the mages run about willy nilly in Kirkwall is constantly proven to be a poor idea.

That the conflict supposedly spills over to the entire world is something we had no way of knowing at the time.

[Rifneno]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

But are you, and anyone else who answered similarly, taking the thin veil into account?

I'm not trying to argue your opinion, it's an honest question.  I think most people who take that stance aren't taking into account that the whole game takes place in a city where demons can influence even non-mages' minds.  Kirkwall mages aren't represenative of mages as a whole, but for some reason they felt the need to hide that fact in some obscure codex entries.

Doesn't matter. I wasn't asked to pick between Mages and Temlars as a whole. I was asked to pick between Mages and Templars in the city. If the veil is indeed thinner there, then if anything that reinforces the need for Templar oversight there.

Not Templar abuses of course, but letting the mages run about willy nilly in Kirkwall is constantly proven to be a poor idea.

That the conflict supposedly spills over to the entire world is something we had no way of knowing at the time.

*points towards the thread topic*

[frylock23]

It really doesn't change my opinion much.  I was sympathetic to mages in DA:O while still believing that the idea of the Circle as a centralized and standardized mage training academy was smart.  Where I think society has gone wrong is to take the idea that mages are so inherently dangerous that they must be cloistered like unwilling monks and nuns and be told for all their lives that their difference makes them evil whether they actually ever become evil or not.

Such treatment really creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Tell a child that he's stupid often enough, and it's no surprise that he'll eventually start to believe he is.  Tell a mage he's evil, and ... I don't think it's hard to draw that conclusion.

I also can't side with the templars because 1.) I know that Meredith declared the Rite illegally. 2.) I happen to believe that someone is innocent until proven guilty and siding with the templars turns that notion on its head.  If people should be innocent until proven guilty, how can I justify taking an entire group of people and labeling them guilty until proven innocent?  I might do it as a roleplaying exercise once, but I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

[RavenB]

I would say it strengthened my sympathy for the mages, or at least brought the issue more to light. In Origins, I was very sympathetic for the various oppressed groups; mages, elves, the casteless dwarves. I still feel that, although there's such a large focus on mages, some of these other groups also deserved at least near as much attention.

I think a point people sometimes fail to see is that the plight of the casteless dwarves and that of the mages is shockingly similar. The casteless turn to crime because they have no other option for income, causing the Carta to flourish. The nobles and other authority types point to this and say the castleless are justifiably treated in such ways as they are. They take their response to oppression as a sign that they're right, the casteless must be inherently bad because we see their actions to almost always be such. We've seen quite sympathetic characters, like Sigrun, in this position.

For mages, the situation is similar, especially in Kirkwall. In Kirkwall, the veil is extremely thin, as we learn from the "Enigma of Kirkwall" codex entries. So thin, in fact, that demons can approach even non-mages in the tunnels under the city. On top of this, the templars are extremely violent and corrupt in their dealings with mages. Blood magic is a way to defend oneself and remain free that I think is an understandable risk many are willing to take; They can chance their will to resist the blood magic's darker sides, or they can resign themselves to the risks of the circle, which involve a high chance of physical, emotional and sexual abuse, as well as the threat of tranquility. Even just the fact that their freedom is on the line is quite a motivator. This is, in my opinion, nearly the exact situation of casteless turning to crime and the Carta. I think it's understandable, although unfortunate, that these minority groups do what they need to survive even when the choices are morally grey to those not in that position.

Although, I also think people assume "blood mage" too soon when they see an abomination. Not all mages who are taken were practicing blood magic. It could easily be a result of the high stress levels in Kirkwall combined with the thin veil. I imagine a good few of the abominations we see in game are not necessarily blood mages. But if people are surprised by the amount of abominations in Kirkwall compared to Ferelden, maybe they should consider the differences between the two nations.

[Deified Data]

Plaintiff wrote...

Kelder was not a mage, and he wanted to die. He was tormented by his actions and hated himself for them. Killing him isn't a punishment, it's an act of mercy.

In case you can't tell, my sympathy for mages was very much strengthened. I consider the Chantry to be a cancer on Thedas and I think its elimination would be best for everyone, not just mages.

If Kelder's not a mage, I'm obviously missing something. Why wear the cowl, and why seek help in the Circle? I don't recall him ever saying he wasn't a mage - it seems a safe assumption to make.

[Deified Data]

ReallyRue wrote...

I think I have a more balanced opinion on them now.

I no longer see them as oppressed innocents, but I still don't think the Chantry-controlled Circle is right. Likewise, I know that the Templars are a blend of zealots and right-minded people.

I think I can take this stance, as well. Origins led us to believe that mages were a wrongly-oppressed people, with maybe 1 blood mage appearing in a Circle every 100 years. DAII brought to light the true danger that mages pose. My conclusion? Mages deserve to be free, but this process cannot be jarringly abrupt like Anders's Chantry attack. It's a process that has to be fleshed out over time. People need to be taught not fear mages, and mages need to be taught to respect their powers. The templars should still exist, as a force capable of combating mages, but I see no reason why they should have to imprison them. Ultimately, I think the mages were on the right track in Thedas before Anders and Orsino saught to erase decades of steady progress.

[xX N7 Xx]

I never had sympathy for mages because they're idiots. The only smart mage was Morrigan, the rest are city born idiots that can't control themselves.