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[Ferretinabun]

In DA:O we had abominations - mages possessed by demons. A constant danger for them. We also had blood mages - mages who drew magical powers from life and blood rather than lyrium; a vilified and forbidden practice.
Both of these were, by some interpretation, 'bad', but distinct. Abominations were horrors in vaguely human form while blood magic, though forbidden, did not make the user 'evil'. Jowan is an example.
DA2 seemed to blur this distinction rather, into a big bloodmage=abomination=EVIL whole. The only time I can think of where blood magic does not automatically equate to demons and destruction is in trying to locate your mother.
Was this distinction clear to you? Discuss.
EDIT: spelling

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 08 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Torax]

Ferretinabun wrote...

In DA:O we had abominations - mages possessed by demons. A constant danger for them. We also had blood mages - mages who drew magical powers from life and blood rather than lyrium; a vilified and forbidden practice.
Both of these were, by some interpretation, 'bad', but distinct. Abominations were horrors in vaguely human form while blood magic, though forbidden, did not make the user 'evil'. Jowan is an example.
DA2 seemed to blur this distinction rather, into a big bloodmage=abomination=EVIL whole. The only time I can think of where blood magic does not automatically equate to semons and destruction is in trying to locate your mother.
Was this distinction clear to you? Discuss.

To be fair that DuPois guy was bad and looking to catch up to his old teacher so steal his power/spells. So he was also a bad guy. Basically since we lacked a looming threat of Dark Spawn and taint. Then we have "Blood Magic" which the Chantry makes out to be utterly evil. The Writers had to paint it in a really bad light to get players more willing to side with the crazy lady that wants all mages dead for what happened when she was young.

Modifié par Torax, 08 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[TJPags]

Actually, DA2 seems to have made abominations something that is summoned, rather than a mage possessed.

That makes no sense based on the lore from DAO and DAA.

[Hannibal218]

Blood mages aren't abominations. Blood mages are just what you said they are but they are more susceptible to posession due to their having to consort with demons(or someone who already has) to learn blood magic and they can summon demons who tend to be all back-stabby betrayey douches. Blood magic is nasty stuff and the blood mages we meet are normally crazy because they have to be either that or desperate, in most cases, to resort to demons to get blood magic. Also, this may be because I'm a Star Wars fanboy but I always kinda look it like normal magic=jedi blood-mage=dark side.

[AshenEndymion]

Since all mages are evil, it really doesn't matter whether they use blood magic or not, does it?

[Icy Magebane]

It had to have been intentional... I find it hard to see blood mages as anything but evil in the context of DA2. I guess Merrill would be the exception, but pretty much everyone else who used blood magic either tried to mind control you or summoned demons (and abominations somehow... :0 ). There's not much grey area here, unless you want to say that desperate times call for desperate measures... but if that's the case, isn't death better than becoming a demon's slave? The mages in this game seemed to have missed the part where once you become an abomination, your free will is gone. So what's the point of doing it?

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yeah, blood mages are all evil. And you can say that without prejudice because you have a blood mage friend, right?

Typical.

[Sarielle]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The mages in this game seemed to have missed the part where once you become an abomination, your free will is gone. So what's the point of doing it?

Taking the Templars with you?

I dunno. That's the only logical explanation I can find. "I may be gone, but whatever comes in my place is gonna kick your ass."

Modifié par Sarielle, 08 avril 2011 - 02:15 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

You're missing the point if you're looking for logical reasoning from desperate people on the verge of death. They're mentally and physically exhausted in a place where the Veil is thin and positively screams with the pain and suffering of those in the past--and present, given the tortured mages--and demons are a constant companion.

Filled with the terror of death, a demon whispers "told you so. But I can saaaave you." When in that sort of fear, instinct takes over: once the demon is let in, it's done.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 08 avril 2011 - 02:17 .

[Icy Magebane]

Maybe. All I know is that I'd rather die than be a slave. I guess it's a personal choice though... I'm sure the demon doesn't tell the whole truth when offering their deal anyway... XD

[TheBlackBaron]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, blood mages are all evil. And you can say that without prejudice because you have a blood mage friend, right?

Typical.

Sure do.



That's him on the right.

[LobselVith8]

Wynne was an abomination, and she still had free will. I don't think it's the same for everyone. We know the Rivain seers bond with spirits, but we know little about the results - perhaps the mage is like Wynne, where he or she retains their free will, but it's impossible to say with any certainty.

As for blood mages, Grey Warden mages have used blood magic. Merrill used blood magic for the purpose of cleaning a shard of the Eluvian because she wanted to extrapolate information that she would use to rebuild one. Jowan, despite many mistakes, ends up becoming Master Levyn and he uses his abilities to protect refugees if you let him go. I don't think blood magic is evil - it's all an issue of how you utilize it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I do not buy the idea that blood mages are necessarily more susceptible to demons. You'd think the ancient Tevinter Imperium would have had a hard time expanding and becoming the impressive civilization that it was if it was constantly harassed by demons due to its extensive use of blood magic. In fact, we know tha the tevinter Imperium used them in batttle as tools, or at best, allies.

But since we don't know much about them, I'll use another example. Avernus. He extensively used blood magic. And not only was he able to avoid possession for centuries, but he single handedly contained demons within the keep all this time. Right next to a teir in the veil. Now it could be that Avernus unlocked power from the taint that gave him resistance, he does after all say that power unlocked from the taint can be used to combat demons ass they are unfamiliar with it.

But the point is, there are seemingly hints that blood mages can be protected from possession, even if they are more susceptible to it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[Camenae]

I don't care what that demon promises me, I'm not letting it in. Abominations are UGLY. Yes, I would much rather DIE than look the way they do permanently.

A deal like Wynne's I could consider, but as there are no guarantees when it comes to dealing with a demon, I'd rather play it safe and not take my chances. Because if I did end up looking like a virulent blob of scar tissue and I still had any shred of free will left, I would off myself just as soon as I could.

[The Angry One]

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

[Conduit0]

The way I see it, theres no such thing as "good" magic or "evil" magic. Its all in how its used and that includes blood magic. We have a couple examples of "good" blood mages to back that up, Jowan and Merril, and even Alain uses blood magic to free your sibling if they were kidnapped. Theres several reasons why blood magic is seen as evil and forbidden. From the Chantry's perspective, the ability to control peoples minds is far too dangerous, if mages can control minds, theres no one you can trust to watch over them. Blood magic alows easy access to far greater power than a mage can normally obtain, this puts them in a greater risk of becoming corrupted by that power. Lastly, the use of blood magic puts you at a greater risk of demonic possession.
So blood magic isn't "evil" but it is very dangerous.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The most powerful magisters of the ancient Imperium were so wizened by their extensive use of lyrium that they were scarcely recognizable as human. Clearly, ugliness is a sign of power and prestige when it comes to magic.

[Asdara]

I think, and I've said this elsewhere, that the theory that blood mages are more susceptible to demonic possession - for me - makes sense only outside the Imperium, in lands controlled by the Circles. Think about it, if you're taught that the two ultimate evils you can ever engage in - by society's dominant religion no less - are blood magic and becoming an abomination, the two will become more likely to be linked in occurrence.

The blood mages in Tevinter probably get training just like they would for any other sphere of magic. It would make it much easier to control your emotions while doing it, to resist fear of bleeding out, to learn effective use methods and minimize personal danger.

Whereas, mages without any training - or minimal training - in doing it resort to blood magic in DA2 out of sheer desperation more than any other factor. Cornered, fighting for their lives, turned on by the people who are supposed to "protect" them who've come under the leadership of a crazed zealot - thats where we see the most turning to immediate blood magic to abomination in rapid succession.

Look at the blood mages in DA2 who aren't abominations involved in All That Remains. They're not abominations; they're just blood mages. One doesn't always lead to the other - but in the intense situations we see during Act 3... it seems plausible that turning to blood magic was simply the step between who you were on a normal day and becoming an abomination.

So it seems to depend on what kind of situation the mage is in and what motivated them to pick up that magic method. Like anything, it's more likely to have adverse effects in the hands of someone who is completely clueless about it.

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

Hmm yeah I don't think she actually made a deal.  Still though, she got to keep her looks.  Every abomination should be as lucky as her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The most powerful magisters of the ancient Imperium were so wizened by their extensive use of lyrium that they were scarcely recognizable as human. Clearly, ugliness is a sign of power and prestige when it comes to magic.

I kind of remember something like that, but am uncertain of the source.

What I am interesting in is those magic towers in Awakening. Pretty neat idea.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

Hmm yeah I don't think she actually made a deal.  Still though, she got to keep her looks.  Every abomination should be as lucky as her.

I'm told it's based on the nature of the fade being. Faith and Justice aren't overtly harmful, Desire is vain and would keep your looks intact. Rage, Pride and Sloth, etc. don't give a damn and will push your body to it's limits with uncontrolled power, hence the meatballing.

[sphinxess]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, blood mages are all evil. And you can say that without prejudice because you have a blood mage friend, right?

Typical.

Sure do.



That's him on the right.

He looks so innocent too

[Andronic0s]

What I find confusing is that in Origins to become an abomination you need to agree to a pact with a demon that is summoned in a ritual (Uldred torture of circle mages to submit) or find one in the fade, but in DA2 it seems mages spontaneously turn into abominations when scared, or backed into a corner. 

Also I agree that blood magic and abominations are more blurred in DA2, but they always struck me as one step away really, like: Search for power, step 1 --> blood magic, step 2 --> Pact with demon, step 3 --> lose control turn into abomination

Modifié par Andronic0s, 08 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm told it's based on the nature of the fade being. Faith and Justice aren't overtly harmful, Desire is vain and would keep your looks intact. Rage, Pride and Sloth, etc. don't give a damn and will push your body to it's limits with uncontrolled power, hence the meatballing.

Why though...they would get even more willing participants if they threw good looks into the equation!  Stupid demons.  They need a new business model.

[The Angry One]

Demon deals usually don't include the possession part.. that's usually the "GOTCHA! Stupid mortal!" bit afterwards.