90 réponses à ce sujet

[Asdara]

Andronic0s wrote...

Uldred torture of circle mages to submit

He tortured them because they didn't want to become abominations and didn't want to submit, not because they had to be possessed by that method just to get a demon in them.

[lorvincent]

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

The will to live is very strong.  My take on it is, when backed into a corner, a mage can strike a deal with a demon.

Also, since mages are always open to the fade, they are always susceptible. My take on blood mages is, since they are willing to dabble in "forbidden magics" they are more likely to be empathetic towards demons or consider their offer, by way of being open minded.  Given this, it seems far more likely for a blood mage to bend to becoming an abomination than a regular mage, but that is still possible too.

My take on it is, most of these blood mages choose to be abominations over death.

Another question is, if you consider demons spirits, or the malevolent beings the chantry portrays them as.

Personally, when I hear demons talk in DA, I hear a creature with a specific point of view.  To me, it doesn't sound like a being that is trying to sway you, and control you by speaking riddles and twisted secrets/truths.  To me, it sounds like a being that is actually confused with why you are refusing its offers.  As far as the demon is concerned, its offer should be to your liking, and as far as the demon is concerned, it is what you want.  I think the demons believe they are doing you a favour, if not a mutual one.  The misunderstanding stems from their perception of the emotional spectrum.  I think demons only understand their own narrow version of human emotion, and on top of that, are incapable of understanding restraint or rational behaviour.

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

Demon deals usually don't include the possession part.. that's usually the "GOTCHA! Stupid mortal!" bit afterwards.

You'd think that after a while, people would start to catch on to a certain pattern...

[Statulos]

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

Pretty much that.

My take on possession is that it pretty much works like drugs, psichoative ones in particular, from the real world: they enhance what is already present.

That´´s why Wynne did not turn bat**** crazy like Anders.

[Andronic0s]

Asdara wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Uldred torture of circle mages to submit

He tortured them because they didn't want to become abominations and didn't want to submit, not because they had to be possessed by that method just to get a demon in them.

Indeed that is what I said, Uldred was forced to torture them because they would not agree, he couldn't simply force the demons against their will.

[Asdara]

Andronic0s wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Uldred torture of circle mages to submit

He tortured them because they didn't want to become abominations and didn't want to submit, not because they had to be possessed by that method just to get a demon in them.

Indeed that is what I said, Uldred was forced to torture them because they would not agree, he couldn't simply force the demons against their will.

Oh.  Apologies!  

I may be multi-tasking this thread read and watching a hilarious Daily Show. 

[lorvincent]

Statulos wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

Pretty much that.

My take on possession is that it pretty much works like drugs, psichoative ones in particular, from the real world: they enhance what is already present.

That´´s why Wynne did not turn bat**** crazy like Anders.

My post above is another take on it.

To expand on that post, I would like to point out ander's case, and what spirits/demons of the fade are.

It has been made clear through codexes that spirits/demons are emotional reflections of our own world, or vice versa.
  What this means for a demon/spirit of desire, is that it reflects our own understanding and connection to that emotion.  This means making a deal with desire is to literally "give into" your own desire, until it consumes you.

That is what an abomination is, more or less.

Anders is just the same: by letting justice in, justice slowly consumed him.  It took longer for this to happen, because his emotional state of being when it came to "justice" was fueled by an anger toward the chantry.  This anger, or "rage", fed into justice too, warping the spirit as well.  This created vengeance, a mix between the spirit of justice, and demon of rage.  All spirits, based on what I can tell, can reflect any emotion, and choose their own alignment, or are innately aligned somehow. Based on how emotions are exposed to them (especially when directly from a host), they can be changed to reflect those emotions.

The big difference with Anders and other abominations is Anders let justice in, but never "gave into" his own sense of justice.  That is why this process that changed them both took so long, and why justice was affected too.  If you let a desire demon in, but your motivation was fueled by a different emotion as opposed to a "desire" for something, then you would be effected more as anders was, and the desire demon may even change.

I think this idea was well expressed in DA:2, when you had demons of specific types running around under different names, that described a specific subset of an emotional branch, or a synonym to one (eg. Allure was the name of a Desire demon).

[Mnemnosyne]

lorvincent wrote...

Another question is, if you consider demons spirits, or the malevolent beings the chantry portrays them as.

Personally, when I hear demons talk in DA, I hear a creature with a specific point of view.  To me, it doesn't sound like a being that is trying to sway you, and control you by speaking riddles and twisted secrets/truths.  To me, it sounds like a being that is actually confused with why you are refusing its offers.  As far as the demon is concerned, its offer should be to your liking, and as far as the demon is concerned, it is what you want.  I think the demons believe they are doing you a favour, if not a mutual one.  The misunderstanding stems from their perception of the emotional spectrum.  I think demons only understand their own narrow version of human emotion, and on top of that, are incapable of understanding restraint or rational behaviour.

I think this is very key to understanding demons in Dragon Age, cause many people attach a more typical 'evil' sense to them when they're not exactly evil per se, they just have an incredibly narrow focus on certain emotions and facets of human behavior.  The fact that those facets that are usually called demons are also very easily pushed toward 'evil' behavior does mean that most demons will be predisposed toward evil.

[Asdara]

lorvincent wrote...


I think this idea was well expressed in DA:2, when you had demons of specific types running around under different names, that described a specific subset of an emotional branch, or a synonym to one (eg. Allure was the name of a Desire demon).

This.  It was very well done and it gave demons that additional dimension beyond simply another category of "monster" they were flirting with by being so numerous in this game.  

[AngryFrozenWater]

Besides the inconsistent lore and the question of being evil or not I think it is odd that every blood mage and their grand mother can summon demons, but Hawke as a blood mage cannot resurrect a dead rabbit if his life depended on it.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Double post.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[Hannibal218]

The way I always viewed blood magic is that it's not evil. It's a tool, it's not sentient. Also, using it doesn't automatically make you evil either. However, opportunity makes the thief as the old adage goes. If you have the power to fuel magic with the lives of other people, summon demons, mind control people, etc. then the temptation to do said things are always going to be there. It would take a pretty strong willed and idealistic person to use blood magic without giving into said temptations when in distress or if you believe that you can absolutely get away with it.

Modifié par Hannibal218, 08 avril 2011 - 03:50 .

[Musou1776]

In DAO it never seemed to matter to NPCs that my Warden was a blood mage, so DA2 seems to mirror that lack of reactivity to it. Also there is never the possibility of your character doing something out of your control due to demonic influence, although that happens to lesser characters.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think the greatest risk of magic in Thedas is that people know so little about how it functions, really. How can you protect yourself when half the time you don't really know what you're dealing with? There's no information, just a huge blob of superstitions, ancient myths, and whatever mages manage to figure out on their own.

People used to think tomatoes were poisonous, after all, and that toads caused warts, and that old women could give you the evil eye. Ignorance is not bliss.

[Knightly_BW]

Statulos wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did Wynne even make a deal?
I got the impression that Wynne was dying, the spirit decided on it's own to merge with her to save her and that was that.

Pretty much that.

My take on possession is that it pretty much works like drugs, psichoative ones in particular, from the real world: they enhance what is already present.

That´´s why Wynne did not turn bat**** crazy like Anders.

Also Wynne was aware what she is. This is why she questions Warden about abominations and free will. Spirit or demon no matter what you call them as Merrill says they are the same being. Consorting to spirits/demons is always dangerous. I think possession part doesn't work if demon is in some kind of prison (Merrill's case) so it made me wonder if Flemeth did the same. According to Morrigan's story she consorted to spirits first than demons.

I think abominations not purely evil as they loose their moral codes, they are dangerous because they are uncontrolable and very powerfull beings focused on destruction (they kinda remind me the Hulk).

Blood mage is considered evil because they have ability to control other people's mind. Also everytime a blood mage needs more power they need to sacrifice other living beings (Like Jowan's sacrifice of Isolde or Orsino's mass murder for becoming harvester). Tho' we also have Merrill who ain't that dangerous to anyone but herself. Even we see and she claims she doesn't want to hurt anyone in the end she is responsible for death of Marethari or slaughter of her entire clan. (Actually this situation more complecated, Marethari is also guilty for the latter part or maybe first if she didn't interfere with Merrill's business)

So in that sense:

Blood Mage = Have great tendecy for Evil
Abomination = Preventable Disaster

[LobselVith8]

Asperius wrote...

Tho' we also have Merrill who ain't that dangerous to anyone but herself. Even we see and she claims she doesn't want to hurt anyone in the end she is responsible for death of Marethari or slaughter of her entire clan. (Actually this situation more complecated, Marethari is also guilty for the latter part or maybe first if she didn't interfere with Merrill's business)

How is Merrill responsible for the actions of others or the death of her clan? The hunters who attack Hawke and her are grown adults, and so is Marethari. Merrill decided to take a risk that endangered only her life because she wanted to restore the Eluvian. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari accepted the demon Audacity into her. Merrill's use of blood magic didn't kill anyone except for the antagonists who are actively trying to murder her and the other members of Hawke's group.

[Knightly_BW]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Asperius wrote...

Tho' we also have Merrill who ain't that dangerous to anyone but herself. Even we see and she claims she doesn't want to hurt anyone in the end she is responsible for death of Marethari or slaughter of her entire clan. (Actually this situation more complecated, Marethari is also guilty for the latter part or maybe first if she didn't interfere with Merrill's business)

How is Merrill responsible for the actions of others or the death of her clan? The hunters who attack Hawke and her are grown adults, and so is Marethari. Merrill decided to take a risk that endangered only her life because she wanted to restore the Eluvian. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari accepted the demon Audacity into her. Merrill's use of blood magic didn't kill anyone except for the antagonists who are actively trying to murder her and the other members of Hawke's group.

The point is: some one will hurt as a result of blood magic. No matter who or how.

To your point, yeah Marethari is a fool but what she did, she did all of them for protecting Merrill in her own way. If there wasn't a deal in the first place, there wouldn't be a reason for those drastic measures.

[Talogrungi]

Yeah, I don't believe that the demons are, themselves, evil. I don't think they exist at all as separate entities.

Projections of negative emotions .. inner demons. The Templars don't imprison mages simply because they're mages .. they imprison them because, despite their ability to use magic, they are still as much slave to their emotions as the rest of us.

[Badger8126]

Camenae wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm told it's based on the nature of the fade being. Faith and Justice aren't overtly harmful, Desire is vain and would keep your looks intact. Rage, Pride and Sloth, etc. don't give a damn and will push your body to it's limits with uncontrolled power, hence the meatballing.

Why though...they would get even more willing participants if they threw good looks into the equation!  Stupid demons.  They need a new business model.

I think it's more a matter of how comfortable the demon is in its new "home" that makes an abomination ugly.
If a mage struggles against the demon or the demon struggles against its host like the Sylvians (walking trees) the demon will be more inclined to reshape the host to qwell its resistence or have a more desirable form.
There are plenty of ugly desire abominations in the circle tower and Uldred seems to have held his shape nicely too for what I guess is a pride demon..

[Rylor Tormtor]

TJPags wrote...

Actually, DA2 seems to have made abominations something that is summoned, rather than a mage possessed.

That makes no sense based on the lore from DAO and DAA.

Yes. Yes, yes. And did I mention, YES!

This was just terrible. Abominations are physical beings. They are made up of a mage's body whose physical form has been corrupted to match the effect that possesion by a demon has on their "soul", "spirit", "mind" or whathave you. 

How do they float up through the ground? How do they appear out of nowhere? And why, WHY WHY WHY WHY, do they so rarely cast spells.

Le sigh.

[KJandrew]

Something i want to know is how the hell did an abomination get into the primeval thaig?

Modifié par KJandrew, 08 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[Yellopranda]

Asperius wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Asperius wrote...

Tho' we also have Merrill who ain't that dangerous to anyone but herself. Even we see and she claims she doesn't want to hurt anyone in the end she is responsible for death of Marethari or slaughter of her entire clan. (Actually this situation more complecated, Marethari is also guilty for the latter part or maybe first if she didn't interfere with Merrill's business)

How is Merrill responsible for the actions of others or the death of her clan? The hunters who attack Hawke and her are grown adults, and so is Marethari. Merrill decided to take a risk that endangered only her life because she wanted to restore the Eluvian. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari accepted the demon Audacity into her. Merrill's use of blood magic didn't kill anyone except for the antagonists who are actively trying to murder her and the other members of Hawke's group.

The point is: some one will hurt as a result of blood magic. No matter who or how.

To your point, yeah Marethari is a fool but what she did, she did all of them for protecting Merrill in her own way. If there wasn't a deal in the first place, there wouldn't be a reason for those drastic measures.

Who knows if there was a need for drastic measures at all? Maybe Merrill would have been just fine, maybe she knew what she was doing. We'll never find out though because of Marethari, who may well have interfered because she was just as prejudiced and fearful of blood magic as the chantry.

Merrill dabbling in Blood Magic didn't seem to have had any adverse effects until your party went to Pride's End and then, it was Marethari's intervention and the clans subsequent reaction which caused the deaths, nothing Merrill did.

On the Blood Magic = Evil issue; it seems to me that blood magic is not in and of itself evil, certainly dangerous, but so are many things in life. That doesn't mean it's not worth exploring.

The biggest problem with blood magic seems to be society's attitude to it, with that attitude being shaped mostly by the Chantry.  During sixteenth and seventeenth century mainly, the church killed tens of thousands of people accused of witchcraft for a variety of reasons, among them because many thought it was real and that they abhorred any power that didn't come from God. Remind anyone of the Chantry?

[TheHawkeWhoFlies]

lorvincent wrote...

The big difference with Anders and other abominations is Anders let justice in, but never "gave into" his own sense of justice.  That is why this process that changed them both took so long, and why justice was affected too.  If you let a desire demon in, but your motivation was fueled by a different emotion as opposed to a "desire" for something, then you would be effected more as anders was, and the desire demon may even change.

Very interesting theory. Hmm...wonder if that means a demon could be 'de-demonized' like spirits (Justice in this case) can be 'demonized' - a Pride demon turning into Confidence, for example, or a Rage demon into Tenacity/Stubborness (though I have no idea how Sloth, Hunger and Desire could be made better/more acceptable emotions). Just a thought.

[Mnemnosyne]

TheHawkeWhoFlies wrote...

Very interesting theory. Hmm...wonder if that means a demon could be 'de-demonized' like spirits (Justice in this case) can be 'demonized' - a Pride demon turning into Confidence, for example, or a Rage demon into Tenacity/Stubborness (though I have no idea how Sloth, Hunger and Desire could be made better/more acceptable emotions). Just a thought.

Desire, frankly, is fine as it is.  We all desire things, whether for good or ill.  Plenty of those desires are not only rational and normal, but actively good, so for desire without bias to be portrayed in a negative light seems rather silly.  Spirits tend to focus so much on their one aspect they have no sense of moderation, though.  Complete and unmoderated focus on what you desire is often destructive, hence the concept that desire demons are evil.

[TheHawkeWhoFlies]

Koyasha wrote...

TheHawkeWhoFlies wrote...

Very interesting theory. Hmm...wonder if that means a demon could be 'de-demonized' like spirits (Justice in this case) can be 'demonized' - a Pride demon turning into Confidence, for example, or a Rage demon into Tenacity/Stubborness (though I have no idea how Sloth, Hunger and Desire could be made better/more acceptable emotions). Just a thought.

Desire, frankly, is fine as it is.  We all desire things, whether for good or ill.  Plenty of those desires are not only rational and normal, but actively good, so for desire without bias to be portrayed in a negative light seems rather silly.  Spirits tend to focus so much on their one aspect they have no sense of moderation, though.  Complete and unmoderated focus on what you desire is often destructive, hence the concept that desire demons are evil.

Good point. Come to think of it, that reminds me of that desire demon who enchanted that templar in DAO; using illusions and feeding off of the man aside, she honestly didn't seem that evil (whether she actually thought she was helping him or just spoke in fine words to throw you off is debatable though). And I'm also reminded of Merrill's lines about "all spirits being different, just like individual humans are different" and "all spirits are dangerous" - perhaps the 'spirit hierarchy' the chantry has is flawed, or at least a little too rigid in its classification?

As for why the name 'Desire' is used, I wager BW just thought of it as a good synonym for Lust and Greed