90 réponses à ce sujet

[Yellopranda]

barryl89 wrote...

I can't see where the "Blood Magic is a happy fun pastime for kiddy magisters and the chantry is evil for stopping blood mages" argument is coming from.

Powerful blood mages use the blood of others to fuel their spells so they don't have to use lyrium.

A blood mage that only uses his/her own blood is pretty weak, and would weaken themselves to the point of becoming abominations.

So if in order to use blood magic and not be vulnerable to demons, you need slaves and lots of them. Otherwise you end up like most of the DA2 blood mages.

I would like to point you to DAO and the Alienage quest. The magister in that quest uses the slaves to fight the warden: "A sacrifice... for power".

Can't see that anyone says blood magic is a happy fun pastime, but maybe you were using "sarcasm".

I know one of my Hawkes became a pretty powerful bloodmage without using the blood of others. except for hemorrhage maybe, but i don't see how that's any different from burning people to death with fireball/firestorm for instance.

Same goes for Merrill, who kicks ass in every playthrough and doesn't use the blood of others.

[barryl89]

Yellopranda wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

I can't see where the "Blood Magic is a happy fun pastime for kiddy magisters and the chantry is evil for stopping blood mages" argument is coming from.

Powerful blood mages use the blood of others to fuel their spells so they don't have to use lyrium.

A blood mage that only uses his/her own blood is pretty weak, and would weaken themselves to the point of becoming abominations.

So if in order to use blood magic and not be vulnerable to demons, you need slaves and lots of them. Otherwise you end up like most of the DA2 blood mages.

I would like to point you to DAO and the Alienage quest. The magister in that quest uses the slaves to fight the warden: "A sacrifice... for power".

Can't see that anyone says blood magic is a happy fun pastime, but maybe you were using "sarcasm".

I know one of my Hawkes became a pretty powerful bloodmage without using the blood of others. except for hemorrhage maybe, but i don't see how that's any different from burning people to death with fireball/firestorm for instance.

Same goes for Merrill, who kicks ass in every playthrough and doesn't use the blood of others.

Not sarcasm per say, more like exaggeration to illustrate a point of view.

Your PC will never count in these discussions because DA2 does not seem to recognise your PC as a real blood mage (he uses ketchup!!!). And they are not really powerful blood mages in any case, when confronted with a Magister fueled by his slaves they would be crushed.

Also the blood magic spec is ridiculous in DA2, it gets to the point where you have almost zero cost spell casting. I think thats stupid. But still insanely fun

[Rockpopple]

Blood Mage spec is a lot more fun than I thought it'd be.

Basically casting spells with no mana cost and running all the sustains you want? Totally overpowered. I barely need to heal at all, even on Hard mode. It's pretty fun. Feels a bit dirty, but still a blast.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Keep in mind, though, that if a PC blood mage is different from the other blood mages, than so are the magisters. Many of the blood mages we see in Kirkwall or in Ferelden are desperate loons who've gotten access to forbidden knowledge beyond their capacity. The magisters, on the other hand, have trained in the deepest of the lore.

For a nice illustration: the magisters are the Emperor from Star Wars, and the other blood mages are Anakin Skywalker going nuts and killing the sandpeople. The PC, on the other hand, is the dude from Force Unleashed--to which the rules apparently don't apply because Video Game Characters Are Kewl.

edit: Honestly, blood mages were underpowered in DA:O. They may be slightly unbalanced now in the sense that they can cast for nothing. Blood magic is supposedly more powerful and effective than lyrium or mana-based casting: so they could have either made blood mages much stronger (potentially more unbalanced?) or make them more efficient casters. The overpowered nature comes from the bonus items you can get rather than blood magic itself, which would normally only have a 3:1 ratio once fully upgraded.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 11 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Girl on a Rock]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, blood mages are all evil. And you can say that without prejudice because you have a blood mage friend, right?

Typical.

Sure do.



That's him on the right.

BAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! FTW!

[Rockpopple]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Keep in mind, though, that if a PC blood mage is different from the other blood mages, than so are the magisters. Many of the blood mages we see in Kirkwall or in Ferelden are desperate loons who've gotten access to forbidden knowledge beyond their capacity. The magisters, on the other hand, have trained in the deepest of the lore.

For a nice illustration: the magisters are the Emperor from Star Wars, and the other blood mages are Anakin Skywalker going nuts and killing the sandpeople. The PC, on the other hand, is the dude from Force Unleashed--to which the rules apparently don't apply because Video Game Characters Are Kewl.

edit: Honestly, blood mages were underpowered in DA:O. They may be slightly unbalanced now in the sense that they can cast for nothing. Blood magic is supposedly more powerful and effective than lyrium or mana-based casting: so they could have either made blood mages much stronger (potentially more unbalanced?) or make them more efficient casters. The overpowered nature comes from the bonus items you can get rather than blood magic itself, which would normally only have a 3:1 ratio once fully upgraded.

Ah, Starkiller. You overpowered douchebag.

Good point about the Blood Mage items, tho. My Blood Mage with a BM staff, 2 BM rings, and a BM or Health belt is much more of a badass than would a plain old upgraded Blood Mage would be. 

[Mnemnosyne]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

edit: Honestly, blood mages were underpowered in DA:O. They may be slightly unbalanced now in the sense that they can cast for nothing. Blood magic is supposedly more powerful and effective than lyrium or mana-based casting: so they could have either made blood mages much stronger (potentially more unbalanced?) or make them more efficient casters. The overpowered nature comes from the bonus items you can get rather than blood magic itself, which would normally only have a 3:1 ratio once fully upgraded.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Blood mage spells in DA2 seem terrible when compared to the almighty Blood Wound of Origins, which can both do considerable damage and paralyze everything in a huge area.  In DA2 the area of effect is much much smaller and the paralyze on hemmorhage is so unreliable it may as well not even be there, so I can't lock down an entire group of enemies alone.

[The Baconer]

Koyasha wrote...
I'm not sure I agree with this.  Blood mage spells in DA2 seem terrible when compared to the almighty Blood Wound of Origins, which can both do considerable damage and paralyze everything in a huge area.  In DA2 the area of effect is much much smaller and the paralyze on hemmorhage is so unreliable it may as well not even be there, so I can't lock down an entire group of enemies alone.

I think Hemmorhage is more of a nuke, actually. Casting the upgraded version on a cluster of targets who've just been staggered is pure death. 

[ColdEnd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ColdEnd wrote...
Blood Magic IS evil, and gets progressively more evil as you go.

No, blood magic isn't evil. It's a form of magic that can be used for purposes that aren't good....

...and many other rationalizations for evil acts and practices.

LobselVith8 - I suppose I could argue the point, but as you have your mind made up, I'd be wasting my time.
I will point out however where your arguments are logically fallacious.

1) "You don't have to learn blood magic from a demon or blood-mage; you could have read a book." The medium through which knowledge is passed down... book, spoken word, balled up scrawled on cocktail napkins... doesn't change who the teacher is, nor the ideas and the slant inherent in those ideas.

2) Good acts do not make up for or erase evil ones; Jowan can feed all the childeren of Ferelden, Anders can free every mage in Thaedas, and treat all the sick he wants. Ultimately though, the evil actions that they undertook cannot be cured. There are many examples in real life I could get into from HH Holmes to Joseph Mengele... but save for that quick mention; I think weighty real-world ethics issue can be left outside the video game forums.

Suffice it to say; good vs. evil is not OOPS I was directly responsible for murdering a town full of people and getting a child possessed by a demon. Well, my heart was in the right place when I took that gold to poison that guy; I guess I'll just do some community service and call it good.

3) The authority of an individual does not give their actions any inherent 'goodness'. The Warden-Commander being a blood-mage is just as evil as a full fledged abomination doing the same. The same can be said about "spirits of the fade"... at best they could be considered amoral, but codex entires clearly state that spirits of the fade CHOOSE to embody the emotions or ideals they do, not that they are manifestations of such. The codex implies that the spirits of the fade have no creativity of their own (which is why the Maker created mortals), and so therefore mirror the facets of mortals that appeal to them. Spirits that embody deliterious emotions and ideals; have chosen to do so out of malice toward mortals (also in the codex).

Blood magic is evil, it's portrayed that way very clearly, and for the same reasons you so fallaciously argued against in my last post.

Modifié par ColdEnd, 12 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[Xin Rong]

I agree that blood magic is evil. There have been so many generations of circle and they don't simply come with the conclusion that blood magic is evil without sufficient facts and evidence.

Demon is evil (in any culture), making a deal with demon (regardless of motive and justifications) is a sign of surrendering to evil. To me, the "greater good" doesn't justify the evil act.

In Chinese history, there is a very famous emperor Li Shimin (you can wiki him), he is typically considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, emperors in Chinese history. He murdered his elder and younger brother and threatened his father (in a sense) in order to get to the throne. His morality and humanity is terrible, and being a good emperor doesn't justify his actions. (Well, he is one of my favorite emperors, but i still do not agree with the act of sibling murdering)

Mages like to justify their use of blood magic (Orsino, one of the typical examples). That's pathetic. They know the mean is evil yet the choose to use it, eventually bring more harm to the rest of the mages. Anders, a so called "anti-blood magic mage", gained much of my favor before his insanity and stupidity angered me. He too, tried to justify evil act by giving a lot of excuses, which, sadly, none of the excuse is justifiable.

Same goes to Tranquil Solution. Sigh.

I actually like Meredith. Too bad that I couldn't stop her insanity. Cullen has grown from a useless and ignorable character into a hot and respectable templar. He is one of the best characters in the game.

I sided with mage for the 1st time, then templars for the second time. I wanted to side with templars for the first time, but i was mislead that Bethany wouldn't join me if i side the templars (which isn't true, she joined after Orsino's dead)... If not i wouldn't side with the mages, the evil the mages portray this game's simply too overwhelming, while their cry of innocence becomes relatively unconvincing...My two cents.

[Yellopranda]

barryl89 wrote...

Yellopranda wrote...

barryl89 wrote...

I can't see where the "Blood Magic is a happy fun pastime for kiddy magisters and the chantry is evil for stopping blood mages" argument is coming from.

Powerful blood mages use the blood of others to fuel their spells so they don't have to use lyrium.

A blood mage that only uses his/her own blood is pretty weak, and would weaken themselves to the point of becoming abominations.

So if in order to use blood magic and not be vulnerable to demons, you need slaves and lots of them. Otherwise you end up like most of the DA2 blood mages.

I would like to point you to DAO and the Alienage quest. The magister in that quest uses the slaves to fight the warden: "A sacrifice... for power".

Can't see that anyone says blood magic is a happy fun pastime, but maybe you were using "sarcasm".

I know one of my Hawkes became a pretty powerful bloodmage without using the blood of others. except for hemorrhage maybe, but i don't see how that's any different from burning people to death with fireball/firestorm for instance.

Same goes for Merrill, who kicks ass in every playthrough and doesn't use the blood of others.

Not sarcasm per say, more like exaggeration to illustrate a point of view.

Your PC will never count in these discussions because DA2 does not seem to recognise your PC as a real blood mage (he uses ketchup!!!). And they are not really powerful blood mages in any case, when confronted with a Magister fueled by his slaves they would be crushed.

Also the blood magic spec is ridiculous in DA2, it gets to the point where you have almost zero cost spell casting. I think thats stupid. But still insanely fun

My PC did take out Danarius and all hos goons with only Fenris tagging along and he's a magister, isn't he?

I do get your point though, that my PC doesn't really count, cause he's always gonna be more powerful than the people he's fighting, for gameplay reasons. And i guess Merrill doesn't really count either for the same reasons.

And yeah, endless mana is fun! Seems bioware forgot to balance the Blood Magic skill, or didn't consider the impact of the items that grant more mana per point of health. The Blood Magic skill i DA2 is already a lot better than the one in DAO without the items. Still, Merrill and Mage PC with 400 hp who can cast spells with wild abandon is fun, at least up until the point where you realize nothing is a challenge anymore.

[TEWR]

Ferretinabun wrote...

In DA:O we had abominations - mages possessed by demons. A constant danger for them. We also had blood mages - mages who drew magical powers from life and blood rather than lyrium; a vilified and forbidden practice.
Both of these were, by some interpretation, 'bad', but distinct. Abominations were horrors in vaguely human form while blood magic, though forbidden, did not make the user 'evil'. Jowan is an example.
DA2 seemed to blur this distinction rather, into a big bloodmage=abomination=EVIL whole. The only time I can think of where blood magic does not automatically equate to demons and destruction is in trying to locate your mother.
Was this distinction clear to you? Discuss.
EDIT: spelling

Merrill wasn't an evil blood mage.

[Yellopranda]

Xin Rong wrote...

I agree that blood magic is evil. There have been so many generations of circle and they don't simply come with the conclusion that blood magic is evil without sufficient facts and evidence.

Demon is evil (in any culture), making a deal with demon (regardless of motive and justifications) is a sign of surrendering to evil. To me, the "greater good" doesn't justify the evil act.
 

The Circle, as a chantry controlled institution, is based on faith, and faith doesn't really go well together with facts and evidence. I would think that even had they had sufficient evidence that would still not count as much as the Chantry's belief that blood magic is evil. Faith and fact are different paradigms, and neither needs the other, You don't need fact if you believe and you don't need to believe if you have fact.

You strike me as a person of faith as you choose to believe, in the absence of evidence, which is fine. I am, however, a person who prefers to see the evidence first hand. Hard irrefutable evidence, not anecdotes or conjecture.

As to demons, it's the chantry's teachings that define these beings as demons. Merrill has a different take. She calls them all spirits, and spirits have been many things in many cultures, oftentimes not evil at all. As to who is right i cannot say, but i do not think the chantry has a monopoly on truth.

Modifié par Yellopranda, 12 avril 2011 - 11:07 .

[Yellopranda]

Koyasha wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

edit: Honestly, blood mages were underpowered in DA:O. They may be slightly unbalanced now in the sense that they can cast for nothing. Blood magic is supposedly more powerful and effective than lyrium or mana-based casting: so they could have either made blood mages much stronger (potentially more unbalanced?) or make them more efficient casters. The overpowered nature comes from the bonus items you can get rather than blood magic itself, which would normally only have a 3:1 ratio once fully upgraded.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Blood mage spells in DA2 seem terrible when compared to the almighty Blood Wound of Origins, which can both do considerable damage and paralyze everything in a huge area.  In DA2 the area of effect is much much smaller and the paralyze on hemmorhage is so unreliable it may as well not even be there, so I can't lock down an entire group of enemies alone.

The main benefit of blood magic in DA2 is the Blood Magic sustainable skill itself, especially if you have items that give even more mana per point of health, which makes it so that you basically have unlimited mana with two or three of these items, without needing to put any points into willpower whatsoever, just dump all those points into constitution instead. The Blood Magic sustainable in DAO is terrible by comparison. (i've realized you may already know this, in which case i apologize )

Also, upgraded hemorrhage is really powerful when combined with stagger.

I agree with you though that blood magic certainly wasn't underpowered in DAO. Blood wound had higher damage than tempest, blizzard and inferno too, i think. It was an awesome crowd control spell and didn't have friendly fire. Even with all that, the blood magic sustainable was still the best skill in the blood magic tree.

[underyourspell]

What's particularly nuts about the items in DA2 is that you can just like, go to the store and buy rings and staves that help with blood magic. It wouldn't be so overpowered if there were just a few hard to find items.