38 réponses à ce sujet

[Wee Joe Green]

So Merrill's final quest...it doesn't add up in terms of story.

After Marethari is dead and you are confronted with the Dalish, if you choose to defend Merill's honour and kill them all (which is a fairly drastic measure)  she gives you + friendship points (not that I got to see it as my friendship was maxed out, but this I know). However if you choose to take the blame and thus avoid having to slaughter every remaining member of her clan and family, she gives you renegade points and is less happy with you in the aftermath.

My point,

Surely as Merill has just lost her mother, she would be completely devasted at having had to personally take the lives of all her fellow clan members and an option which avoided conflict and saved their lives would be better for her.  We have to bare in mind, everything she was trying to do, despite being naive, was for the good of her clan.  The fact that fighting and eventually killing them all is seen as the paragon thing to do doesn't make sense.  This should surely be a renegade action and the least desireable outcome for Merrill.

She had only just said she thought she was in a nightmare after losing her mother, never mind losing and killing all her remaining clan!

[iamthespark]

I never noticed that you got approval points from Merrill for killing the entire clan. Wow, what can we even say to that! Of course I agree with you - it makes no sense what so ever.

Even how Merrill coped with her clan being killed was weak. All we got was one "cry scene" at the end and that was it. I'm sorry but she/we just slaughtered like 50 Dalish, I wouldnt have minded if she wanted to talk about it some more.

[Wee Joe Green]

iamthespark wrote...

I never noticed that you got approval points from Merrill for killing the entire clan. Wow, what can we even say to that! Of course I agree with you - it makes no sense what so ever.

Even how Merrill coped with her clan being killed was weak. All we got was one "cry scene" at the end and that was it. I'm sorry but she/we just slaughtered like 50 Dalish, I wouldnt have minded if she wanted to talk about it some more.

Turns out I got the bug where I had the conversation with her at the start of Act 3 before any of the events had happened, lol I did wonder what she was talking about - why on Earth can't you go see them anymore, we just went for a chat with them 5 mins ago?  - so I never got to have a proper conversation with her about it again after the fight.

Do you think this will affect my completing her friendship cycle completely and properly, considering that I never got to end her quest with the conversation afterwards?  I hope so!

[Trexorange]

I would like to point out that at this point in the game she probably resents the clan for kicking her out and making her out to be a monster.(remember Pol?) Also, When you "take responsibility" for her you are outright saying that her blood magic is dangerous. If you do this and dont kill the clan she can't know that if you hadn't taken responsibility then the clan would attack so all she see's is you saying her blood magic is bad, and possibly that you are saying the keepers death is her fault. There's also the fact that Merril is totaly incapable of realizing the fact that all of that death is her fault. She believes she is in the right and that the clan is over reacting. That pride of her's is the most frustrating thing about her, even though i want to protect her at the same time as hitting her for her stupidity.

[Aeryn-Sun]

She has no idea the clan will turn on her. She approves of you supporting her and standing by her. She disapproves of you basically saying she's too dangerous to walk around without an escort. The consequences of Hawke's position come after and are beside the point. At least, that's how I see it.

[namedforthemoon]

iamthespark wrote...

I never noticed that you got approval points from Merrill for killing the entire clan. Wow, what can we even say to that! Of course I agree with you - it makes no sense what so ever.

Even how Merrill coped with her clan being killed was weak. All we got was one "cry scene" at the end and that was it. I'm sorry but she/we just slaughtered like 50 Dalish, I wouldnt have minded if she wanted to talk about it some more.

Yep. Look at how many times Alistair got choked up over Duncan's death, and he only knew Duncan for a while. Merrill had been with her clan her entire life. I thought there should have been way more to her story.

[Trexorange]

That's basicly what i was trying to say. Aeryn-Sun, thanks for simplifying it.

[Apollo Starflare]

Solution: Take the rivalry path! The healthy alternative.

Seriously though, that is odd. What do you mean when you say she is less happy with you afterwards? My Merrill was fine with me, but as you may have gathered I was on the rivalry path already, I was always going to get rivalry points if anything due to the way the game gives you points based on what you already have the most of in some situations.

Would have been nice to have some more time to talk about what happened with her afterwards, but then the same can be said about any companion. As fantastic as the dialogue and companion interaction was in DA2 there could have been more.

[primero holodon]

The freindship points come from the fact that you defended Merrills actions, not because the clan attacks you. since Hawke never makes an aggressive move towards them It wouldn't make sense for Merrill to gain rivalry points for defending her.

[Northern Sun]

I saw it as gaining friendship because you were standing up for her; she couldn't know doing that would cause the entire clan to commit suicide by Hawke.

As for lack of remorse, I think(and hope) the bug that makes the post-quest cutscene play at the beginning of act 3 is simply preventing us from seeing a different cutscene that has the "slaughter clan" outcome, since both friend/rival refer to "clan will kill me". If no new cutscenes emerge after the patch, then I will agree that the lack of fallout from the clan slaughter is a major oversight.

[GhostlyMaiden]

Northern Sun wrote...

As for lack of remorse, I think(and hope) the bug that makes the post-quest cutscene play at the beginning of act 3 is simply preventing us from seeing a different cutscene that has the "slaughter clan" outcome, since both friend/rival refer to "clan will kill me". If no new cutscenes emerge after the patch, then I will agree that the lack of fallout from the clan slaughter is a major oversight.

Nah. All you get is a dialogue change:

"So much death because of me. I...I've done everything wrong."

"I should have done this years ago...You were right. You were always right. No keeper. No clan. No people. I have nobody, but you. What will I do now?"

Keep in mind that this is also rival path. Kinda wished I had been on the friendship path, because holy cow her self-confidence is completely shattered now. Tali Hug Paragon Interrupt needs to be in this scene so freaking bad.

Modifié par GhostlyMaiden, 08 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Mary Kirby]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

So Merrill's final quest...it doesn't add up in terms of story.

After Marethari is dead and you are confronted with the Dalish, if you choose to defend Merill's honour and kill them all (which is a fairly drastic measure)  she gives you + friendship points (not that I got to see it as my friendship was maxed out, but this I know). However if you choose to take the blame and thus avoid having to slaughter every remaining member of her clan and family, she gives you renegade points and is less happy with you in the aftermath.

My point,

Surely as Merill has just lost her mother, she would be completely devasted at having had to personally take the lives of all her fellow clan members and an option which avoided conflict and saved their lives would be better for her.  We have to bare in mind, everything she was trying to do, despite being naive, was for the good of her clan.  The fact that fighting and eventually killing them all is seen as the paragon thing to do doesn't make sense.  This should surely be a renegade action and the least desireable outcome for Merrill.

She had only just said she thought she was in a nightmare after losing her mother, never mind losing and killing all her remaining clan!

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

[LobselVith8]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

So Merrill's final quest...it doesn't add up in terms of story.

After Marethari is dead and you are confronted with the Dalish, if you choose to defend Merill's honour and kill them all (which is a fairly drastic measure)  she gives you + friendship points (not that I got to see it as my friendship was maxed out, but this I know). However if you choose to take the blame and thus avoid having to slaughter every remaining member of her clan and family, she gives you renegade points and is less happy with you in the aftermath.

Because you're not taking the blame, you're placing the blame on Merrill for what happened to Marethari. What's written as a dialogue option to select and what's actually said by Hawke are two different things.

[Wee Joe Green]

Aeryn-Sun wrote...

She has no idea the clan will turn on her. She approves of you supporting her and standing by her. She disapproves of you basically saying she's too dangerous to walk around without an escort. The consequences of Hawke's position come after and are beside the point. At least, that's how I see it.

Yeah that makes sense.  Still though it was the aftermath and the consequences or your decisions I was meaning, not just the initial "blood magic is bad statement".  I felt she should have been able to consider that it was a far better outcome that the hostility was subdued and she didn't have to resort to killing her entire clan.

All in all, my point was more that the story components could have been considered a little more carefully to provide a more diverse option than slay her whole clan to her approval of sticking up for her, or her resenting the fact you chastised her but saved her people, race, identity and reason to pursue her goals!

[Wee Joe Green]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

So Merrill's final quest...it doesn't add up in terms of story.

After Marethari is dead and you are confronted with the Dalish, if you choose to defend Merill's honour and kill them all (which is a fairly drastic measure)  she gives you + friendship points (not that I got to see it as my friendship was maxed out, but this I know). However if you choose to take the blame and thus avoid having to slaughter every remaining member of her clan and family, she gives you renegade points and is less happy with you in the aftermath.

My point,

Surely as Merill has just lost her mother, she would be completely devasted at having had to personally take the lives of all her fellow clan members and an option which avoided conflict and saved their lives would be better for her.  We have to bare in mind, everything she was trying to do, despite being naive, was for the good of her clan.  The fact that fighting and eventually killing them all is seen as the paragon thing to do doesn't make sense.  This should surely be a renegade action and the least desireable outcome for Merrill.

She had only just said she thought she was in a nightmare after losing her mother, never mind losing and killing all her remaining clan!

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

But am I not right in saying that had you not been at full friendship with her prior to this encounter, choosing to chastise her in order to save her race would result in fairly hefty rivalry points (even if you had supported her before this point) and therefore not able to finish her final romance scene?

...All just because you tried to accept blame in order to save her people.  Plus, let's not forget the fact the option says "I accept the blame", which you should think is a paragon choice and instead ends up with you blaming her for it all - the opposite of what it implied and therefore misleading!

I just felt the end results here could have been a bit more refined and considerate of the after effects and how this would impact Merrill.

(I romance Isabella this time round btw - hard choice to make!)

[Icy Magebane]

This quest is ridiculous. I get either 15 or 25 Rivalry after dealing with the pride demon no matter what I say. And I haven't even been outside the cave yet!

But I agree with the idea that the points are based on what you say to Merrill, not her clan's reaction, which she obviously would not have forseen. Still... that's way too many points I just lost. And there doesn't seem to be any way around it. It seems strange that there is no way to gain friendship from this exchange... I just killed the freaking pride demon 3 times and tried different approaches, and still, either +15 or +25 rivalry.

[Mary Kirby]

Wee Joe Green wrote...


But am I not right in saying that had you not been at full friendship with her prior to this encounter, choosing to chastise her in order to save her race would result in fairly hefty rivalry points (even if you had supported her before this point) and therefore not able to finish her final romance scene?

...All just because you tried to accept blame in order to save her people.  Plus, let's not forget the fact the option says "I accept the blame", which you should think is a paragon choice and instead ends up with you blaming her for it all - the opposite of what it implied and therefore misleading!

I just felt the end results here could have been a bit more refined and considerate of the after effects and how this would impact Merrill.

(I romance Isabella this time round btw - hard choice to make!)

Dragon Age does not have Paragon/Renegade.

If you're at full friendship or rivalry, the bar locks, and you don't get any further approval changed applied.

And Merrill has no idea when you say those words that it will lead to anyone dying. She is reacting to you. Not her clan.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I just hope that the promised patch 1.02 fixes the bugs in this quest line, along with others.

[Knight of Dane]

And for the consoles too =__=''

[silksieve]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

All in all, my point was more that the story components could have been considered a little more carefully to provide a more diverse option than slay her whole clan to her approval of sticking up for her, or her resenting the fact you chastised her but saved her people, race, identity and reason to pursue her goals!

You’re meta-gaming it a tad. 
Merrill doesn’t know that you could have said something else and that something else could have led to the slaughter of her clan.  She only knows that you called her dangerous and made her look unhinged in front of her clan.   You can romance her on the rivalry path, btw.

Modifié par silksieve, 08 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Icy Magebane wrote...

This quest is ridiculous. I get either 15 or 25 Rivalry after dealing with the pride demon no matter what I say. And I haven't even been outside the cave yet!

That doesn't sound right. The

[Wee Joe Green]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...


But am I not right in saying that had you not been at full friendship with her prior to this encounter, choosing to chastise her in order to save her race would result in fairly hefty rivalry points (even if you had supported her before this point) and therefore not able to finish her final romance scene?

...All just because you tried to accept blame in order to save her people.  Plus, let's not forget the fact the option says "I accept the blame", which you should think is a paragon choice and instead ends up with you blaming her for it all - the opposite of what it implied and therefore misleading!

I just felt the end results here could have been a bit more refined and considerate of the after effects and how this would impact Merrill.

(I romance Isabella this time round btw - hard choice to make!)

Dragon Age does not have Paragon/Renegade.

If you're at full friendship or rivalry, the bar locks, and you don't get any further approval changed applied.

And Merrill has no idea when you say those words that it will lead to anyone dying. She is reacting to you. Not her clan.

You're still missing my point though  I understand she reacts to the words you say and not the clan's reaction, but it's their consequences I expected to have a more noticeable or dramatic effect on her afterwards.  I adored Merrill and so without question wanted to make sure she was safe and would back her up in her choices - to a point.  But I felt like it was a hollow victory after I had slayed all her kin.  I walked away from it thinking, "pfft, I'm not sure I've done the right thing there" and after reloading a save and trying the opposite version I still wasn't satisfied as then I'd let Merrill down (so went with the original).

Then to boot she had nothing to say about the massacre afterwards.  I love this game but that quest had a disappointing ending.

(Also importantly) my character was a Dalish from that tribe originally in Origins and so I felt horribly responsible for killing them all.  I just wasn't so satisfied with the lack of options in the outcome.  Kill her entire clan or walk away the bad guy with Merrill resenting your choice of words.  Normally it seems to be theres always one option, assuming you've done everything well and persevered, which rewards you with the most satisfying outcome.  I didn't get that there.

Modifié par Wee Joe Green, 08 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[Wee Joe Green]

silksieve wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

All in all, my point was more that the story components could have been considered a little more carefully to provide a more diverse option than slay her whole clan to her approval of sticking up for her, or her resenting the fact you chastised her but saved her people, race, identity and reason to pursue her goals!

You’re meta-gaming it a tad. 
Merrill doesn’t know that you could have said something else and that something else could have led to the slaughter of her clan.  She only knows that you called her dangerous and made her look unhinged in front of her clan.   You can romance her on the rivalry path, btw.

Lol, what do you mean "meta-gaming"?

[Wee Joe Green]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

I'm so glad you clarified that. I've never really understood the reasoning behind Merrill's rivalry/friendship.

Oh and if that's the case maybe it should be called something other than "rivalry", as a 'rival' does not have the same connotations as what is being described here.  Respecting someone contramanding your decisions does not feel like what is being implied by gaining their 'rivalry'.  Rivals are enemies.  Don't debate this, it's an uncomplicated English translation.

Blue v Dark red meter...it doesn't come across as what you're trying to portray to the players.