38 réponses à ce sujet

[Ace Attorney]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

silksieve wrote...

Wee Joe Green wrote...

All in all, my point was more that the story components could have been considered a little more carefully to provide a more diverse option than slay her whole clan to her approval of sticking up for her, or her resenting the fact you chastised her but saved her people, race, identity and reason to pursue her goals!

 
You’re meta-gaming it a tad. 
Merrill doesn’t know that you could have said something else and that something else could have led to the slaughter of her clan.  She only knows that you called her dangerous and made her look unhinged in front of her clan.   You can romance her on the rivalry path, btw.

Lol, what do you mean "meta-gaming"?

a.k.a. letting future story events influence your current choices a.k.a. breaking the Role Play in Role Playing Game 

[Maria Caliban]

I only attempt to avoid meta-gaming on my first play through. My second DA II game was aimed at getting specific achievements, getting an Isabela rivalmance, and seeing the content I'd missed previously, which I consider all meta-game concerns.

That said, I'm not sure this qualifies as meta-gaming. Not being satisfied with the possible results isn't the same as having those possible results influence what you do in game.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

I'm so glad you clarified that. I've never really understood the reasoning behind Merrill's rivalry/friendship.

Oh and if that's the case maybe it should be called something other than "rivalry", as a 'rival' does not have the same connotations as what is being described here.  Respecting someone contramanding your decisions does not feel like what is being implied by gaining their 'rivalry'.  Rivals are enemies.  Don't debate this, it's an uncomplicated English translation.

Blue v Dark red meter...it doesn't come across as what you're trying to portray to the players.

Bioware has often had a fuzzy concept involved in these morality or relationship meters.

[Maria Caliban]

My is my PC called a rogue simply because she can picklocks and DW daggers? She's not roguish at all.
Why are these things in my hand called daggers? They look much longer than a dagger.
How come increasing my Intelligence and Cunning doesn't make my PC any smarter?

Games tend to have specialized vocabularies. Friend and Rival give you a general flavor for the relationship (and companions tend to be far more upset at you if you're a rival) but you're still expected to read the manual what exactly the gameplay mechanism represents.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Aeryn-Sun]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

I'm so glad you clarified that. I've never really understood the reasoning behind Merrill's rivalry/friendship.

Oh and if that's the case maybe it should be called something other than "rivalry", as a 'rival' does not have the same connotations as what is being described here.  Respecting someone contramanding your decisions does not feel like what is being implied by gaining their 'rivalry'.  Rivals are enemies.  Don't debate this, it's an uncomplicated English translation.

Blue v Dark red meter...it doesn't come across as what you're trying to portray to the players.

Rivals are competitors, people with whom we disagree on fundamental issues and attempt to outdo in order to prove our point of view is the correct one. Of course you can hate your rival, or call him/her an enemy, but the not the definition of the word by itself.

[Sanguinerin]

The "I accept the blame" option blames Merrill? That is quite misleading. I wouldn't say the paraphrase system is perfect but it normally works. That paraphrase seems immensely incorrect if your spoken lines place the blame on Merrill...

I was surprised at having to kill the entire clan, and in my game, I never got any additional dialogue about the situation. I spent the rest of the game wondering why Merrill didn't care about her clan being slaughtered, so if I ever reach that point again I hope there isn't another bug.

Edit: On rivalry, I've never seen that as blatant enemies. A friend and I used to roleplay our characters on WoW together as rivals, and there was definitely underlying respect between the two of them. They disagreed with each other, they tried to one-up the other, but that didn't stop them from fighting together (you know, questing) and still having each other's backs. Rivalry does not necessarily equal enemy.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 08 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[nijnij]

What I found really weird was that after we slaughtered everyone, she never spoke about it again. I expected some sort of closure to the quest, instead we just went back to Kirkwall and that was it, never had to visit her in her home or anything. Not sure if it's a bug.

[mesmerizedish]

nijnij wrote...

What I found really weird was that after we slaughtered everyone, she never spoke about it again. I expected some sort of closure to the quest, instead we just went back to Kirkwall and that was it, never had to visit her in her home or anything. Not sure if it's a bug.

It's a bug. The conversation you're supposed to have with her after the quest is triggering at the beginning of Act III instead of when he quest is completed.

[nijnij]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

nijnij wrote...

What I found really weird was that after we slaughtered everyone, she never spoke about it again. I expected some sort of closure to the quest, instead we just went back to Kirkwall and that was it, never had to visit her in her home or anything. Not sure if it's a bug.

It's a bug. The conversation you're supposed to have with her after the quest is triggering at the beginning of Act III instead of when he quest is completed.

Wait, is it the one in which she

Spoiler

 shatters the Eluvian ?

. It did trigger on my last playthrough and I thought that was her way to show love in the rivalry romance. I also thought her personal quest wouldn't trigger as a result (I stopped playing before getting to that point so I don't know). Anyway, that's some bug !

[mesmerizedish]

Yes, that's supposed to be the conclusion to her quest. It's definitely my least-favorite bug in the game

[Wee Joe Green]

Maria Caliban wrote...

My is my PC called a rogue simply because she can picklocks and DW daggers? She's not roguish at all.
Why are these things in my hand called daggers? They look much longer than a dagger.
How come increasing my Intelligence and Cunning doesn't make my PC any smarter?

Games tend to have specialized vocabularies. Friend and Rival give you a general flavor for the relationship (and companions tend to be far more upset at you if you're a rival) but you're still expected to read the manual what exactly the gameplay mechanism represents.

I did read the manual actually before I began playing and had a look at the guide so I realised this was what it was supposed to represent.  I'm just saying that when you're actually playing it doesn't exactly feel this way, it feels like you're being "the bad guy" the majority of the time.

Oh and I suppose I maybe have been "meta-gaming" to some extent.  I invariably always stick with my original intentions, only change if the description for speech has been wildly off what it's actual delivery was, in saying something I would never have chosen to say had I known.  That's fair enough.  It's also interesting to re-load sometimes and see the different outcomes for fun.  As in, when Merrill approached me at the mansion, I always knew I wouldn't cheat on Isabella and would have to stick with that romance but I was very intrigued by the outcome of that encounter and so tried both before going with Isabella.  ...Semi-metagaming.

[Wee Joe Green]

HallowedWarden wrote...

The "I accept the blame" option blames Merrill? That is quite misleading. I wouldn't say the paraphrase system is perfect but it normally works. That paraphrase seems immensely incorrect if your spoken lines place the blame on Merrill...

I was surprised at having to kill the entire clan, and in my game, I never got any additional dialogue about the situation. I spent the rest of the game wondering why Merrill didn't care about her clan being slaughtered, so if I ever reach that point again I hope there isn't another bug.

Edit: On rivalry, I've never seen that as blatant enemies. A friend and I used to roleplay our characters on WoW together as rivals, and there was definitely underlying respect between the two of them. They disagreed with each other, they tried to one-up the other, but that didn't stop them from fighting together (you know, questing) and still having each other's backs. Rivalry does not necessarily equal enemy.

I agree and experienced the exact same thing.  Originally when I saw "I accept the blame" my intuition told me, that's the responsible and brave outcome to choose and I think Merrill would appreciate (and "like", therefore "friendship") that decision.  He then went on to effectively just blame her and her blood magic and that was not a satisfactory result from the choice.  Although my friendship was already maxed and I didn't personally notice the rivalry indicator, I then read and found out that it is the rivalry choice.  Anyway, that's by the by.

Oh and I understand what you're saying about rivals, to be fair I've read books with "rivals" who held respect for each other in their endeavours.  So I'm thinking now it was a little presumptuous for me to say rival=enemy.

[Wee Joe Green]

nijnij wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

nijnij wrote...

What I found really weird was that after we slaughtered everyone, she never spoke about it again. I expected some sort of closure to the quest, instead we just went back to Kirkwall and that was it, never had to visit her in her home or anything. Not sure if it's a bug.

It's a bug. The conversation you're supposed to have with her after the quest is triggering at the beginning of Act III instead of when he quest is completed.

Wait, is it the one in which she

Spoiler

 shatters the Eluvian ?

. It did trigger on my last playthrough and I thought that was her way to show love in the rivalry romance. I also thought her personal quest wouldn't trigger as a result (I stopped playing before getting to that point so I don't know). Anyway, that's some bug !

Yes I had the same bug which made that outcome a little underwhelming but I am particularly confused in mine as I remember having the encounter with her, but she was quite placid about it and I talked her round and she never ended up smashing the mirror - or at least I definitely don't remember that, and I would have because it's big.  However, whenever I was in her home throughout Act 3 the mirror wasn't there, just the stand at the bottom and I did wonder about that.  I'm thinking now that perhaps should have been the outcome after the quest but never got to see it take place?

[Torax]

Wee Joe Green wrote...

nijnij wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

nijnij wrote...

What I found really weird was that after we slaughtered everyone, she never spoke about it again. I expected some sort of closure to the quest, instead we just went back to Kirkwall and that was it, never had to visit her in her home or anything. Not sure if it's a bug.

It's a bug. The conversation you're supposed to have with her after the quest is triggering at the beginning of Act III instead of when he quest is completed.

Wait, is it the one in which she

Spoiler

 shatters the Eluvian ?

. It did trigger on my last playthrough and I thought that was her way to show love in the rivalry romance. I also thought her personal quest wouldn't trigger as a result (I stopped playing before getting to that point so I don't know). Anyway, that's some bug !

Yes I had the same bug which made that outcome a little underwhelming but I am particularly confused in mine as I remember having the encounter with her, but she was quite placid about it and I talked her round and she never ended up smashing the mirror - or at least I definitely don't remember that, and I would have because it's big.  However, whenever I was in her home throughout Act 3 the mirror wasn't there, just the stand at the bottom and I did wonder about that.  I'm thinking now that perhaps should have been the outcome after the quest but never got to see it take place?

She shatters the Mirror in the Rival path. She won't shatter it in the Friendship path if I recall. Logic is because the Friendship path basically agrees with her and helps her on the mirror. To a point may even support her in all her demon and blood magic use. Meanwhile the Rival path does not agree on the whole Demons being helpful and rebuilding the mirror at all costs.

Merrill also doesn't like it when others treat her like a child. The Keeper and others talking down to her and making her decisions for her. She is okay with someone being helpful like Varric. Not okay with the Keeper or Hawke refusing to even let her try or doubting her ability. So to a point you can be the good person by being her Rival.