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[Persephone]

Oh yay, still no official numbers. *Yawns*

But it's on the INTERNET, it MUST be true!

Delicious how that very site gets bashed for posting inaccurate numbers if it doesn't fit your agenda and how it's treated like the Holy Bible (That fact being completely overlooked) if it supports your agenda. PRICELESS.

Working in Sales and Marketing myself I'll only say this: Do you believe everything on the Internet? (Up until DAII was released RPG Codex was called everything from Troll Haven to Snakepit, now it's the "glorious RPG Codex".) Gullible is as gullible does. And hey, why not ignore the simplest rules of Sales and Marketing if it supports your vendetta? (Like expecting a Lead Designer to "admit" to what you saw as "flaws" in an interview! Laughable!) And don't tell me it's all about disappointment and crushed expectations. When I am disappointed with a game, I shelve it and play something else. I don't waste my time ranting for weeks.

Yes, let the Biodrone namecalling begin.

Modifié par Persephone, 16 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[neppakyo]

Persephone wrote...

Oh yay, still no official numbers. *Yawns*

But it's on the INTERNET, it MUST be true!

Delicious how that very site gets bashed for posting inaccurate numbers if it doesn't fit your agenda and how it's treated like the Holy Bible (That fact being completely overlooked) if it supports your agenda. PRICELESS.

Working in Sales and Marketing myself I'll only say this: Do you believe everything on the Internet? (Up until DAII was released RPG Codex was called everything from Troll Haven to Snakepit, now it's the "glorious RPG Codex".) Gullible is as gullible does. And hey, why not ignore the simplest rules of Sales and Marketing if it supports your vendetta? (Like expecting a Lead Designer to "admit" to what you saw as "flaws" in an interview! Laughable!) And don't tell me it's all about disappointment and crushed expectations. When I am disappointed with a game, I shelve it and play something else. I don't waste my time ranting for weeks.

Yes, let the Biodrone namecalling begin.

You.. you.. Pepsidrone!

[Ieolus]

nedpepper wrote...

This is depressing. I'm replaying Origins (I'm waiting for DLC for Dragon Age 2....and now I'm scared there WON'T be any...) , and there are significant postive changes in DA 2. The speed, the streamlining of the Codex, Inventory and the much better skill trees. The game moves, Hawke is completely immersive as a character, and you really can do some great role playing. I've played three times. All three Hawkes couldn't be any more different.

Ugh... the speed, the ruining of the codex, the terrible inventory changes.... these are your positives?  Only the skill changes to me are a neutral change, I could do with either Origins or DA2 in that.

But you are correct, it is depressing.  But that is mostly because of these design decisions IMO.

nedpepper wrote...
But, I gotta be honest. People were so hellbent on burying the sequel and it shows in the sales. THe oldschool rpg players destroyed the game on so many sites that the casual player simply looked at the hate and passed. AND THAT IS A SHAME.

You cannot expect people who bought the game expecting a sequal to Origins and getting all these changes thrown in their face to react positively do you?  Especially if they don't like the changes.  The old school RPG players as you call them got the word out that DA2 is not an RPG like Origins but something else; those casual players should have read the complaints... maybe they would have liked the changes that were designed to suit their taste and bought the game.  Didn't work out that way.  You can't rely on casual gamers to be your fanbase.  That is the road to irrelevance.

[Persephone]

neppakyo wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Oh yay, still no official numbers. *Yawns*

But it's on the INTERNET, it MUST be true!

Delicious how that very site gets bashed for posting inaccurate numbers if it doesn't fit your agenda and how it's treated like the Holy Bible (That fact being completely overlooked) if it supports your agenda. PRICELESS.

Working in Sales and Marketing myself I'll only say this: Do you believe everything on the Internet? (Up until DAII was released RPG Codex was called everything from Troll Haven to Snakepit, now it's the "glorious RPG Codex".) Gullible is as gullible does. And hey, why not ignore the simplest rules of Sales and Marketing if it supports your vendetta? (Like expecting a Lead Designer to "admit" to what you saw as "flaws" in an interview! Laughable!) And don't tell me it's all about disappointment and crushed expectations. When I am disappointed with a game, I shelve it and play something else. I don't waste my time ranting for weeks.

Yes, let the Biodrone namecalling begin.

You.. you.. Pepsidrone!

I might change my username to that.

[neppakyo]

Persephone wrote...

The Neppless One wrote...

You.. you.. Pepsidrone!

I might change my username to that.

They do sound phonetically similar

[Sabriana]

Yah. We huddled in our secret base and agreed to "ruin" DA 2 for no particular reason. We bought multiple games from bioware, and were loyal fans for many years. However, we simply decided to smash their newest game to smithereens. Just because. Right. Gotcha.

You know, I've been critical. I feel I have the right to be, because I paid 56 euros for that privilege. I was also calm and constructive. At least I firmly believe I am. I have never outright told anyone not to buy DA 2. But I could not, in good conscience tell people to "go get it, it's marvelous", because as far as I'm concerned, it's simply a 'meh' game that is vastly overpriced.

I told people to rent/borrow/research. If they still loved the concept of an action/h&s medieval game with a few RPG elements they bought it. If not, they saved money. DA 2 torpedoed itself. I resent people accusing me of having friends that are simply dim-witted sheep that didn't buy a game they might have liked, simply on my say-so.

[Persephone]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, I've been critical. I feel I have the right to be, because I paid 56 euros for that privilege. I was also calm and constructive. At least I firmly believe I am. I have never outright told anyone not to buy DA 2. But I could not, in good conscience tell people to "go get it, it's marvelous", because as far as I'm concerned, it's simply a 'meh' game that is vastly overpriced.

I told people to rent/borrow/research. If they still loved the concept of an action/h&s medieval game with a few RPG elements they bought it. If not, they saved money. DA 2 torpedoed itself. I resent people accusing me of having friends that are simply dim-witted sheep that didn't buy a game they might have liked, simply on my say-so.

I don't believe I've accused anyone by name, so why so quick to defend yourself? 

I've been telling people who were unsure to borrow my copy and see if they liked it. So, no, I have no problem with that.

[Radwar]

Should we really be surprised by those figures? Seriously having played almost all Bioware games (except Shattered Steel & Sonic), DA2 is a piece of crap compared to Bioware's standard of excellence. Heck, even Jade Empire run's circles around it (that says alot). I still have a hard time coming to grasps that Bioware actually made this game. I'm really concerned at the state of the games which are released recently. Take a look at the PS3 version of ME2, it's obvious it was rushed just by looking at the incredible amount of bugs (not only big ones but some that are really obvious like the audio being out of sync.) upon release, then we have DA2. We have to wonder if Bioware actually tests their games now. Not to mention the recycled environments. Instead of actually coming out and saying they made a VERY bad design decision, they have the audacity to tell us they didn't think it would be a big deal. Seriously, do they take us for complete idiots? And to top it off, what about Laidlaw's responses to interviews, shrugging off the gamer's negative reactions and acting like DAO was a second rate game? Frankly I believe DA2's shortcomings (including Laidlaw's reactions) will be hard felt in sales when DA3 is released (especially when it comes to pre-orders).

[Persephone]

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

[Everwarden]

Persephone wrote...
 When I am disappointed with a game, I shelve it and play something else. I don't waste my time ranting for weeks.

Depends on the level of disappointment. Star Wars: Episode I is a fairly good example of disappointment reaching a level high enough to cause this kind of backlash (and to be fair to DA2, Episode I was a -lot- worse).

[Radwar]

Also I don't believe the Dev's excuses when it comes to their games anymore. Especially when one of them said that a hi-res remake of Garrus's face in ME1 would make the patch incredibly big in size. Jeanluc moded the face by himself, it took a couple of hours and ended up taking only 670k. I believe alot of Bioware's dev responses are exagerated when it comes to demands by gamer's, counting on the gamer's general ignorance. Take a look at DA2 for example, the excuse they gave us for the recycled dungeons was for the zots alocated. If they made more dungeons, it would've autamically meant less sidequests (Fed Ex sidequests are amazing by they way "sarcasm"). Yet DAO had more sidequests, more different locations and more different dungeons. It does't make any sense. DA2 was rushed and Bioware should admit it. Heck even NPC's in Denerim (one of DAO's cities) had more dialog than those in Kirkwall in DA2, and 85-90% of the game was in Kirkwall.

[Nightshade IX]

I would be surprised if a sequel that scores significantly lower than the original at metacritic gets sales that is comparable to the original after the initial boost from pre-orders. I hope Bioware has better luck with Dragon age 3.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

There's a difference between having a different opinion and ignoring any criticism and downright insulting a large group of former customers.

[Radwar]

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but the way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

Modifié par Radwar, 16 avril 2011 - 08:25 .

[Sabriana]

Persephone wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

You know, I've been critical. I feel I have the right to be, because I paid 56 euros for that privilege. I was also calm and constructive. At least I firmly believe I am. I have never outright told anyone not to buy DA 2. But I could not, in good conscience tell people to "go get it, it's marvelous", because as far as I'm concerned, it's simply a 'meh' game that is vastly overpriced.

I told people to rent/borrow/research. If they still loved the concept of an action/h&s medieval game with a few RPG elements they bought it. If not, they saved money. DA 2 torpedoed itself. I resent people accusing me of having friends that are simply dim-witted sheep that didn't buy a game they might have liked, simply on my say-so.

I don't believe I've accused anyone by name, so why so quick to defend yourself? 

I've been telling people who were unsure to borrow my copy and see if they liked it. So, no, I have no problem with that.

Oh dear. That wasn't directed at you at all. I'm very happy that you enjoy the game so much. This was directed at the poster who claimed that the critics pulled DA 2 down on purpose, claiming that we use 'word-of-mouth' to purposely ruin the game simply because we are upset about it.

Edited for even more clarity. I really should start putting the original quotes in my responses

Modifié par Sabriana, 16 avril 2011 - 06:42 .

[Persephone]

Everwarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...
 When I am disappointed with a game, I shelve it and play something else. I don't waste my time ranting for weeks.

Depends on the level of disappointment. Star Wars: Episode I is a fairly good example of disappointment reaching a level high enough to cause this kind of backlash (and to be fair to DA2, Episode I was a -lot- worse).

Not in my case. Lemme give you an ancient example:

I waited for three bloody years for Gabriel Knight III to come out. After the GLORY that was GKII (The best FMV ever), I had the HIGHEST expectations.

They even hired Tim Curry back.

And then everything went to hell.

I was so utterly disappointed by the poor 3D graphics being forced on yet another adventure title, to name just one HUGE bone of contention.

The franchise DIED in 1999, we never got to see GKIII's cliffhanger (You think DAII ended on a cliffie? HAH!) resolved. 12 years and still waiting for a GK4 that will never come. The Adventure genre is truly dead, which is why the whole RPG debate irks me. My favorite genre IS actually dead, you know?

But I did not bash GK III for months. I joined every GK4 campaign. I begged and pleaded with Sierra. Played other adventure games. (Only The Longest Journey came close) See the difference?

[Persephone]

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but they way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

So what if he believes this? Is there some sort of code demanding that DAO be worshipped or something?

I prefer DAII to DAO myself. (I'd not be as critical as Mr. Laidlaw, however)

[Persephone]

Sabriana wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

You know, I've been critical. I feel I have the right to be, because I paid 56 euros for that privilege. I was also calm and constructive. At least I firmly believe I am. I have never outright told anyone not to buy DA 2. But I could not, in good conscience tell people to "go get it, it's marvelous", because as far as I'm concerned, it's simply a 'meh' game that is vastly overpriced.

I told people to rent/borrow/research. If they still loved the concept of an action/h&s medieval game with a few RPG elements they bought it. If not, they saved money. DA 2 torpedoed itself. I resent people accusing me of having friends that are simply dim-witted sheep that didn't buy a game they might have liked, simply on my say-so.

I don't believe I've accused anyone by name, so why so quick to defend yourself? 

I've been telling people who were unsure to borrow my copy and see if they liked it. So, no, I have no problem with that.

Oh dear. That wasn't directed at you at all. I'm very happy that you enjoy the game so much. This was directed at the poster who claimed that the critics pulled DA 2 down on purpose.

Oh. I see. Sorry for misunderstanding. And this may be OT but your Warden (On your avvie) looks awesome!

[Radwar]

Persephone wrote...

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but they way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

So what if he believes this? Is there some sort of code demanding that DAO be worshipped or something?

I prefer DAII to DAO myself. (I'd not be as critical as Mr. Laidlaw, however)

If he actually believes this then he should shut up about it out of respect to the gamer's who loves DAO and to the lead designer who made DAO (Laidlaw was only lead designer for the console versions after the major part of DAO for PC was done). DAO was a better RPG, in almost every aspects, period. Sure DA2 made some improvements but they were few, it did make alot of setbacks though. This is the general consensus, you just have to look at the sales (minus the pre-orders based on Biowares reputation which is taking a hard hit, plus on DAO's reputation). Also you must add the ratings and the general discussion on gaming boards). I browse alot on gaming boards, not just Bioware's boards and the negative reactions far outweight the positive reactions. Let's just wait and see how much award's DA2 gets compared to DAO, including game of the year.

Modifié par Radwar, 16 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Persephone]

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but they way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

So what if he believes this? Is there some sort of code demanding that DAO be worshipped or something?

I prefer DAII to DAO myself. (I'd not be as critical as Mr. Laidlaw, however)

If he actually believes this then he should shut up about it out of respect to the gamer's who loves DAO and to the lead designer who made DAO (Laidlaw was only lead designer for the console versions after the major part of DAO for PC was done). DAO was a better RPG, period in almost all aspects, sure DA2 made some improvements but they were few, it did make alot of setbacks though. This is the general consensus, you just have to look at the sales (minus the pre-orders based on Biowares reputation which is taking a hard hit, plus on DAO's reputation), the ratings and the general discussion on gaming boards). I browse alot on gaming boards, not just Bioware's boards and the negative reactions far outweight the positive reactions. Let's just wait and see how much award's DA2 gets compared to DAO, including game of the year.

So DAO and those who love it deserve respect, yet those who love and prefer DAII do not? I see your logic....

"A better RPG, period" ....ah yes. Nobody may disagree with that and live.

I do not give a damn about "general consensus" messages, if the quantity of followers guaranteed success, many a mediocre piece of entertainment would be universally worshipped. Is Britney Spears a better singer than Maria Callas because she is selling more than Callas ever will? See, I can do it too.

Why should I care about awards again? Or the comparison to the sacred monster called DAO?

[Melca36]

nedpepper wrote...

If Dragon Age 3 comes out and it's back to the slow, plodding circling up to the enemy, I will be so disapponted. If there is a Third game, and I hate having to preface with that, I hope they can somehow manage to find some knid of feedback where we see the quick paced action implented with a larger canvas story. There's a happy medium.

But I don't want Dragon Age Origins 3. Without growth and evolution, you get stagnant mediocrity that only appeals to a small minority that speaks the loudest.

Exploding bodies from backstabbing is NOT evolution

Sorry but waves of enemies dropping from the ceiling is NOT evolution.

Pick up and Delivery quests is NOT evolution.

DA:2 had some good moments but it did not help that the developers pandered to one fanbase and tried to appeal to a group of gamers who dont want depth in their games.

Hopefully they will come up with a reasonable compromise that appeals to ALL fans and not just the group who want instant gratification and everything handed to them.

[Melca36]

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but they way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

So what if he believes this? Is there some sort of code demanding that DAO be worshipped or something?

I prefer DAII to DAO myself. (I'd not be as critical as Mr. Laidlaw, however)

If he actually believes this then he should shut up about it out of respect to the gamer's who loves DAO and to the lead designer who made DAO (Laidlaw was only lead designer for the console versions after the major part of DAO for PC was done). DAO was a better RPG, in almost every aspects, period. Sure DA2 made some improvements but they were few, it did make alot of setbacks though. This is the general consensus, you just have to look at the sales (minus the pre-orders based on Biowares reputation which is taking a hard hit, plus on DAO's reputation). Also you must add the ratings and the general discussion on gaming boards). I browse alot on gaming boards, not just Bioware's boards and the negative reactions far outweight the positive reactions. Let's just wait and see how much award's DA2 gets compared to DAO, including game of the year.

If they got rid of the expliding bodies, waves of enemies jumping from the ceiling, and those inane pick up and delivery quests perhaps some fans would be a bit happier.

Those elements dimiinish the integrity of the franchise.

They can keep the rivalry system and the elements that were good.

They should not pander to one audience. They need to come up with a reasonable compromise.

[Persephone]

Melca36 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

If Dragon Age 3 comes out and it's back to the slow, plodding circling up to the enemy, I will be so disapponted. If there is a Third game, and I hate having to preface with that, I hope they can somehow manage to find some knid of feedback where we see the quick paced action implented with a larger canvas story. There's a happy medium.

But I don't want Dragon Age Origins 3. Without growth and evolution, you get stagnant mediocrity that only appeals to a small minority that speaks the loudest.

Exploding bodies from backstabbing is NOT evolution

Sorry but waves of enemies dropping from the ceiling is NOT evolution.

Pick up and Delivery quests is NOT evolution.

DA:2 had some good moments but it did not help that the developers pandered to one fanbase and tried to appeal to a group of gamers who dont want depth in their games.

Hopefully they will come up with a reasonable compromise that appeals to ALL fans and not just the group who want instant gratification and everything handed to them.

There is a Mod if you dislike the Gibbing.

Couldn't care less about waves or where enemies spawn. Both DAO and DAII were...um...equally shoddy there.

DAO had way more Feddex quests than DAII. ("Get 15 toxins for X" "Collect ten mushrooms for Y")

DAII offered neither instant gratification to me nor did it hand everything to me. It actually made me think way more than DAO ever did. I consider DAO child's play compared to the grit, gripping story telling and gutwrenching drama of DAII. It had depth, so bloody much of it.

*Prepares to be flayed for heresy*

[skyrend]

I will agree with others that the trend is the important thing to follow here.  I pre-ordered DA2, but rest assured that if DA3 promises to be more of the same, I'll forego the thing entirely.

[Persephone]

Melca36 wrote...

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Radwar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yes. Mike Laidlaw (Who isn't my fave dev btw) clearly isn't permitted to have an opinion that differs from yours. And he dares to stick by it too. The SACRILEGE!

Hypocrisy abounds.

It isn't the fact that he had a different opinion which bothered me, but they way he acted towards DAO. His responses came off like DAO was a second rated game and DA2 was the mother of all games. I'd have to be a complete idiot to fall for this.

So what if he believes this? Is there some sort of code demanding that DAO be worshipped or something?

I prefer DAII to DAO myself. (I'd not be as critical as Mr. Laidlaw, however)

If he actually believes this then he should shut up about it out of respect to the gamer's who loves DAO and to the lead designer who made DAO (Laidlaw was only lead designer for the console versions after the major part of DAO for PC was done). DAO was a better RPG, in almost every aspects, period. Sure DA2 made some improvements but they were few, it did make alot of setbacks though. This is the general consensus, you just have to look at the sales (minus the pre-orders based on Biowares reputation which is taking a hard hit, plus on DAO's reputation). Also you must add the ratings and the general discussion on gaming boards). I browse alot on gaming boards, not just Bioware's boards and the negative reactions far outweight the positive reactions. Let's just wait and see how much award's DA2 gets compared to DAO, including game of the year.

They can keep the rivalry system and the elements that were good.

They should not pander to one audience. They need to come up with a reasonable compromise.

While I agree that a compromise of the strengths of both games would be delightful, people would still be unhappy if they aren't catered to exclusively. Tis human nature.