78 réponses à ce sujet

[Taritu]

Seriously?  Why couldn't I bring this up with Elthina?  No matter what you think of locking mages up, Meredith was clearly causing a lot of the problems by being so heavy handed, and it is, as I understand it, illegal to make mages who have passed the Harrowing Tranquil, yet she's doing it routinely. Replacing her is the obvious solution to the problem, yet you can't bring it up until it's too late to matter.  I mean, it's not like Cullen has a reputation as a softie.  If Elthina can't replace Meredith, then why can't you bring it up with Leiliana directly?

I liked this game, but the game is maddening in the way it doesn't allow you logical solutions.  As when Meredith is there, with just a few of her men, and she says she'll fight me later, when she has all her men?  Seriously, what!?  I would have attacked her on the spot, the numbers are even, and I'll take those odds, thanks. She clearly intends to kill me, there is moral or logical case to not fight her right now when the odds favor me.  Or Sebastian threatening war and saying he wont' fight you "now".  Uh, no, you will fight me "now", rather than start a war.  Heck, I'd even offer a duel (not that the sap would stand a chance.)  (For the record, I did both choices with Anders just to see what happened, but in my canon game, I killed him.)

I mean, I get Sebastian understands he'd lose and doesn't want to fight, but why the heck would I let him leave and come back with an army?

Again, I'm not a hater of this game, I enjoyed it a ton.  But various story issues and certain gameplay issues just make it feel like it's not up to Bioware standards.  I feel like nothing I did mattered.  Orsino and Meredith would have dealt with the Arishok if I hadn't, the mages/templars go to war no matter what I do, I can't save my mother no matter what I do--every important decision point would happen without me, with the possible exception of the Deep Roads expedition, but probably even that (and therefore the idol and all that follows from it.)

The people who say this feels like a JRPG have a point.  You're on rails and nothing you do really effects the state of the world significantly.  About all I get to do is choose who I love, which ain't nothing, but this aint' a dating sim.

I must say, I want Hawke to come back, because I'd like to play a game as her in which I feel like what I do matters, that the world is actually different because of me, that everything significant woudln't have happened whether I was alive or dead.

Modifié par Taritu, 08 avril 2011 - 02:10 .

[TJPags]

I wondered this too during my first game (gave up on thoughts like this afterward). Why can't Meredith be removed? Can't Elthina investigate what's going on?

I had the thought due to the whole "packs of blood mages roaming the streets at night" thing. I considered Meredith, frankly, to be doing a ****** poor job.

But, hey, she must be around for the final act - like Anders.

[IanPolaris]

I am almost certain that the Grand Cleric does indeed have the right to fire KC Meridith, but in this case the political fallout would be severe and Elthina always struck me as timid. She is so afraid of her power (Elthina) that she lets it paralyze her. Bad, bad, bad for a Cardinal/Grand Cleric.

Otherwise, the Knight Vigalent in Val Royeaux has the right to remove her (obviously given he's her immediate Templar Superior), and there is some indication (not sure of the details), that her immedate subordinates under extraordinary circumstances can declare her unfit for command (but they'd better be able to back that up!)

Just my take.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

I'm not sure but I think the Grand Cleric has the authority to remove the Knight-Commander, but in this case Meredith has a hardcore of supporters, even with people like Thrask who ultimately rebel.

Given Meredith has been gradually increasing her hold over the city, Elthina must fear that Meredith will make a lot of trouble if she's officially removed from her position which could result in the Divine ordering a march on the city, which is the last thing Elthina wants.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Apparently Cullen has the right to relieve her of her command if she proves mentally unstable.

The Chantry (not Elthina specifically) was incompetent in allowing Meredith to remain in her post despite her clearly failing policies, not only vis a vis mages, but also PR. If Anders hadn't been such a paranoid fool, probably all of Kirkwall could have just ganged up on her and forced her to leave.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Apparently Cullen has the right to relieve her of her command if she proves mentally unstable.

The Chantry (not Elthina specifically) was incompetent in allowing Meredith to remain in her post despite her clearly failing policies, not only vis a vis mages, but also PR. If Anders hadn't been such a paranoid fool, probably all of Kirkwall could have just ganged up on her and forced her to leave.

Well that wouldn't have accomplished what he wanted.
In fact the worse the situation in Kirkwall got the more it played into Anders' hands and his agenda to free all mages whether they like it or not.

[AshenEndymion]

The city of Kirkwall only has a problem with Meredith, in Act 3, if the Champion has a problem with Meredith... So whether Meredith has bad PR really depends...

The Grand Cleric seems to be in a position to be able to remove (at least temporarily) the Knight Commander from his/her post until a review can be performed. And Cullen could (or Alric if he were alive) if he can prove the Knight Commander was incompetent or insane.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
Well that wouldn't have accomplished what he wanted.
In fact the worse the situation in Kirkwall got the more it played into Anders' hands and his agenda to free all mages whether they like it or not.

Hence why he is a paranoid fool.

[hoorayforicecream]

Actually, Elthina was the one who made Meredith the knight-commander in the first place (if I recall right, ~9 years before the beginning of DA2). I think the main reason that Meredith hadn't been removed from her position was because up until Elthina was killed, Meredith hadn't done anything that would have warranted dismissal. She had definitely earned some warnings, maybe even some punishment or reprimands, but when there are that many blood mages and maleficars showing up, it's really difficult to say that their most vocal opponent should be dismissed.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hence why he is a paranoid fool.

Justice was never one capable of thinking things through before the acting. He's like that from the very start when you meet him in the Fade.

[Paeyne]

It would be reasonable to assume that the Grand Cleric could remove Meridith from her post. Elthina is the only person Meridith is deferential to.

Certainly Meridith tries to prevent Orsino from talking to Elthina. One wonders why unless she feared that she would be countermanded.

[Mnemnosyne]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Actually, Elthina was the one who made Meredith the knight-commander in the first place (if I recall right, ~9 years before the beginning of DA2). I think the main reason that Meredith hadn't been removed from her position was because up until Elthina was killed, Meredith hadn't done anything that would have warranted dismissal. She had definitely earned some warnings, maybe even some punishment or reprimands, but when there are that many blood mages and maleficars showing up, it's really difficult to say that their most vocal opponent should be dismissed.

Yes, she did: she ordered or at the very least, allowed the tranquiling of mages who had passed their harrowing.  That is against Chantry law.  It's actually more prohibited than execution, since from what I gather, a Knight-Commander can order the execution of a mage without any certain proof of wrongdoing, but nobody can ever order a mage being made tranquil for any reason, after they pass their harrowing.

[Taritu]

To my mind, Elthina is more complicit than anyone. Meredith is a bit unbalanced to begin with because of her history. Then she starts going nuts, and doing things that seem to make the situation worse and are actually illegal. Elthina appears to be the one person who can replace her, and she doesn't.

I won't go so far as to say Elthina deserved to die, but she let the situation get completely out of hand, when she was the only person who could do anything to stop it from doing so. A holy woman, yes. I liked her personally. But extraordinarily ineffective as an administrator or leader.

[rma2110]

What about the Seekers? I thought it was their function to see that Templars don't abuse their power. If so, then it seems to me that they were asleep on the job.

[Taritu]

rma2110 wrote...

What about the Seekers? I thought it was their function to see that Templars don't abuse their power. If so, then it seems to me that they were asleep on the job.

Yeah, that too.  I was irritated I couldn't tell Leiliana that to stop this mess she needed to replace Meredith, right now.  She's the agent of the Divine, she might be able to do it.  If she couldn't, she could tell the Divine to.  That would happen too late (by the time all the travelling was done), of course, but that would add to the tragedy.

[Foolsfolly]

Who has the right to boot the Knight-Commander?

Hawke, obviously!

The Divine couldn't do it, the Seekers are three years too late, and the Grand Cleric's too scared to pick a side even when one of the sides is constantly asking for the right to utterly destroy the other.

But you know, if they just sat down and sang Chanter songs all their problems would go away. There's no reason to step in and do your job here.

[IanPolaris]

Yeah, odd that we first see the Seekers WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO STOP THIS MESS only years after all hell breaks loose.

Two thumbs down.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

Koyasha wrote...

Yes, she did: she ordered or at the very least, allowed the tranquiling of mages who had passed their harrowing.  That is against Chantry law.  It's actually more prohibited than execution, since from what I gather, a Knight-Commander can order the execution of a mage without any certain proof of wrongdoing, but nobody can ever order a mage being made tranquil for any reason, after they pass their harrowing.

Just because something happened under her watch doesn't mean that it's grounds for dismissal. She could have easily been reprimanded for it, but not necessarily sacked.

[IanPolaris]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Who has the right to boot the Knight-Commander?

Hawke, obviously!

The Divine couldn't do it, the Seekers are three years too late, and the Grand Cleric's too scared to pick a side even when one of the sides is constantly asking for the right to utterly destroy the other.

But you know, if they just sat down and sang Chanter songs all their problems would go away. There's no reason to step in and do your job here.

Elthina struck me as a fundamentally weak person.  She has personal courage aplenty, but the idea that somone might actually think badly of her and she might actually have to pick a side and offend someone simply seemed to paralyze her.  Elthina is genuinely hurt and shocked if you decide to read her the riot act during the Justice quest, yet she and the Chantry deserve every word.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Yes, she did: she ordered or at the very least, allowed the tranquiling of mages who had passed their harrowing.  That is against Chantry law.  It's actually more prohibited than execution, since from what I gather, a Knight-Commander can order the execution of a mage without any certain proof of wrongdoing, but nobody can ever order a mage being made tranquil for any reason, after they pass their harrowing.

Just because something happened under her watch doesn't mean that it's grounds for dismissal. She could have easily been reprimanded for it, but not necessarily sacked.

It does if the violation is large enough, and Tranquilling Harrowed mages is a major MAJOR no-no.  It's considered worse than the mistaken/unjust execution of a mage.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Darker_than_black]

Taritu wrote...

Seriously?  Why couldn't I bring this up
with Elthina?  No matter what you think of locking mages up, Meredith
was clearly causing a lot of the problems by being so heavy handed, and
it is, as I understand it, illegal to make mages who have passed the
Harrowing Tranquil, yet she's doing it routinely. Replacing her is the
obvious solution to the problem, yet you can't bring it up until it's
too late to matter.  I mean, it's not like Cullen has a reputation as a
softie.  If Elthina can't replace Meredith, then why can't you bring it
up with Leiliana directly?

I liked this game, but the game is
maddening in the way it doesn't allow you logical solutions.  As when
Meredith is there, with just a few of her men, and she says she'll fight
me later, when she has all her men?  Seriously, what!?  I would have
attacked her on the spot, the numbers are even, and I'll take those
odds, thanks. She clearly intends to kill me, there is moral or logical
case to not fight her right now when the odds favor me.  Or Sebastian
threatening war and saying he wont' fight you "now".  Uh, no, you will
fight me "now", rather than start a war.  Heck, I'd even offer a duel
(not that the sap would stand a chance.)  (For the record, I did both
choices with Anders just to see what happened, but in my canon game, I
killed him.)

I mean, I get Sebastian understands he'd lose and
doesn't want to fight, but why the heck would I let him leave and come
back with an army?

Again, I'm not a hater of this game, I enjoyed
it a ton.  But various story issues and certain gameplay issues just
make it feel like it's not up to Bioware standards.  I feel like nothing
I did mattered.  Orsino and Meredith would have dealt with the Arishok
if I hadn't, the mages/templars go to war no matter what I do, I can't
save my mother no matter what I do--every important decision point would
happen without me, with the possible exception of the Deep Roads
expedition, but probably even that (and therefore the idol and all that
follows from it.)

The people who say this feels like a JRPG have a
point.  You're on rails and nothing you do really effects the state of
the world significantly.  About all I get to do is choose who I love,
which ain't nothing, but this aint' a dating sim.

I must say, I
want Hawke to come back, because I'd like to play a game as her in which
I feel like what I do matters, that the world is actually different
because of me, that everything significant woudln't have happened
whether I was alive or dead.

I also found it very ridiculous that I couldn't just attack Meredith on the spot when I had sided with the mages, or Sebastian (you could have at least let me try to convince him to stay, or let me punch him in the face).

But I think what I found most laughable was the situation when you arrive at the Gallows before the final battle. Orsino tries to convice Meredith to revoke the right of Annulment and stop this "madness" but Meredith refuses. Then Orsino ask "So what now? Do we fight right here and now"? to which Meredith answers "No, gather your men and we shall settle this once and for all" (these are not their exact words, can't remember exactly, but I belive the message is clear anyway)

This is just...what? My first though here was; wtf? Meredith is determined to eliminate every mage for the good of the city, but she still wants some kind of honorable fight? Like: "No we won't kill you here that would be unfair, gather some more men so that there is still a chance you might defeat us" Makes absolutly no sense to me.

Modifié par Darker_than_black, 08 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[Foolsfolly]

@ IanPolaris.

Viscount's just as weak. He's the ruler of Kirkwall, the whole city-state, and yet everyone believes Meredith's the real ruler. How could the Viscount allow that to happen? Some flexing of political muscles here would have had him take on Meredith and prove that there's one ruler of Kirkwall.

Everyone just allowed Meredith to run wild, even after the opening of Act 2 where Cullen and other mages are talking about how they think she's gone crazy. She's reclusive now, and paranoid that everyone's against her. We know it's because of the Idol....but everyone seems to know that something's wrong with the one person with the most power in the whole city. And no one does anything.

If anyone had basic ambition she would have been murder knife'd before Act 3 by someone.

Same with the nobles. You'd think someone would want to replace the impotent Viscount Dumar and at the very least not allow Meredith to continually post-pone crowning a new Viscount.

EDIT:

This game needed a Bhelen or Illusive Man. Their raw ambition and political manuevuring would have made for interesting characters. I'm all for flawed characters but way too many have the same idiot ball as a character flaw in order to keep Meredith in power.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 08 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[Aldandil]

It could make sense for Elthina to be careful if the templar order generally causes a ruckus when a KC is being removed from her/his position, to the extent that a Grand Cleric would have to present pretty solid evidence that the KC was out of line. That type of evidence could be hard to present if the rest of the templars in Kirkwall were firmly in the Meredith camp, to the extent that all of them would support Meredith and remove any evidence of unlawful tranquilisations. This certainly doesn't appear to be the case though. Maybe Elthina believes it is, but even with such a comparatively kind interpretation, she comes off as being uninformed about business that concerns her, and that's not a good thing for the highest ranking official of the Chantry in the region.

Isn't it made clear by some comment by Elthina ("I do not have the influence you think I have" or something similar) that she believes that she can't control Meredith? Well, maybe if Meredith is blackmailing her, or something. The more likely explanation is that Elthina is too timid to do anything.

[TobiTobsen]

I think Elthina would have the authority to replace Meredith. But she was way to busy with doing nothing and telling the "kids" to go home and stop making to much noise.
The two problems in the game, Qunari vs Fanatics and Templars vs Mages, could have been solved if Elthina would just do something, but instead she is sitting in the chantry and tells you someting along the lines of "It will happen just like the Maker wants it to happen". That's freaking apathy she is preaching there.
And as acting Grand Cleric I would expect her to know the city's history and maybe think about the fact that the mages are imprisoned above the freaking mouth of hell and maybe thats the reason they are behaving like they do.

Foolsfolly wrote...

@ IanPolaris.

Viscount's just as weak. He's the ruler of Kirkwall, the whole city-state, and yet everyone believes Meredith's the real ruler. How could the Viscount allow that to happen? Some flexing of political muscles here would have had him take on Meredith and prove that there's one ruler of Kirkwall.

How should he have done that? I suspect that the templars have more people under weapons than the city guard and Kirkwall doesn't seem to have a standing army. With that at the back of your mind and the fact that the last Viscount got beheaded for his anti templar troubles, I can understand that he isn't acting more bold and keeps a low profile.