78 réponses à ce sujet

[tanarri23]

The Grand Cleric might have the authority to oust Meredith, but it's clear from the start that Meredith will not go down peacefully and that she's not without support among the people of Kirkwall. It would be a mess. It is also inevitable. And just like the late Viscount, the Grand Cleric is taking the path of least resistance in hopes of delaying said inevitable mess, even if it means turning a blind eye and sweeping bad things under the rug for as long as the rug will cover them.

I don't think she deserved what happened to her, but I don't feel sorry for her.

Modifié par tanarri23, 08 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

There's no evidence that Meredith forced the Rite of Tranquility on a mage after their Harrowing. We have papers saying she rejected that proposal and the Templar who we know did this is dead.

The Grand Cleric, like the Viscount, is a moderate who doesn't want to support either side. She doesn't see just how bad the abuses to the mages has gotten. It's very possible she doesn't want to see as attempting to remove Meredith from her position would upset things in Kirkwall, which is what she wants to avoid.

[Wulfram]

In theory, Elthina likely had the authority to remove Meredith.

In practice, we know the Templars were on the edge of rebellion anyway, so her ability to do so without provoking the war she was trying to avoid is very doubtful. At the least she would have needed clear evidence of wrongdoing that couldn't be defended as simply a vigorous pursuit of Maleficarum and Apostates.

As it was, even with the malevolent influence of the Idol driving Meredith on, her policy of promoting compromise was sufficiently viable that Anders felt it necessary to kill her.

[Mnemnosyne]

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's no evidence that Meredith forced the Rite of Tranquility on a mage after their Harrowing. We have papers saying she rejected that proposal and the Templar who we know did this is dead.

Meet Karl: A fully harrowed mage who was made tranquil.  That's just one example.  Remember apprentices don't ever get to leave the tower, so any mage that we see in-game that starts out as a mage and becomes tranquil, that was a harrowed mage.  There's also at least one mage in the courtyard that in Act 1, I think it is, makes a comment about seeing Ser Alrik order her Rite of Tranquility, and she specifically says, 'he can't do that, I passed my harrowing!'  It's an ambient comment.  I think there's another NPC that comments on her cousin having a sister who's a mage that was made tranquil, or something, also.  To suggest that it's not happening is to intentionally pretend otherwise.

And to suggest that Meredith isn't responsible if it's done by anyone in the Kirkwall templars is to completely ignore the fact that a commander is responsible for those under her command, especially when blatant and open violations of the law are being done under her command.  Either she is ordering it herself in some cases (likely) or she is intentionally permitting it to be done.

Foolsfolly wrote...

@ IanPolaris.

Viscount's just
as weak. He's the ruler of Kirkwall, the whole city-state, and yet
everyone believes Meredith's the real ruler. How could the Viscount
allow that to happen? Some flexing of political muscles here would have
had him take on Meredith and prove that there's one ruler of
Kirkwall.

I'm not sure it's fair to blame the Viscount.  Yes, he's weak, but his predecessor was killed by Meredith.  The City Guard doesn't have the forces to take on the templars, and the Viscount himself is an old man while Meredith is clearly a very strong and capable fighter even without the sword giving her superpowers.

I'm also not sure what he's supposed to do about the Qunari situation other than exactly what he did.  Unlike Elthina, he's not actually in charge of a military group that's doing things far outside their laws.  He has fanatical civilians among the very nobility that must support him - keep in mind that Viscount is not an autocratic position, he gets elected by the nobles.  He can't just decree that the Qunari must be left alone and go after anyone who attacks them.  Neither can he throw the Qunari out without hundreds of deaths.  Trying to keep the peace is his only option because he's not actually in charge of either of the troublemaking groups.

Modifié par Koyasha, 08 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[AshenEndymion]

Koyasha wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's no evidence that Meredith forced the Rite of Tranquility on a mage after their Harrowing. We have papers saying she rejected that proposal and the Templar who we know did this is dead.

Meet Karl: A fully harrowed mage who was made tranquil.  That's just one example.  Remember apprentices don't ever get to leave the tower, so any mage that we see in-game that starts out as a mage and becomes tranquil, that was a harrowed mage.  There's also at least one mage in the courtyard that in Act 1, I think it is, makes a comment about seeing Ser Alrik order her Rite of Tranquility, and she specifically says, 'he can't do that, I passed my harrowing!'  It's an ambient comment.  I think there's another NPC that comments on her cousin having a sister who's a mage that was made tranquil, or something, also.  To suggest that it's not happening is to intentionally pretend otherwise.

And to suggest that Meredith isn't responsible if it's done by anyone in the Kirkwall templars is to completely ignore the fact that a commander is responsible for those under her command, especially when blatant and open violations of the law are being done under her command.  Either she is ordering it herself in some cases (likely) or she is intentionally permitting it to be done.

First, we never saw Karl before he became a Tranquil.  Only Anders says he passed his Harrowing.
Second, It's legal for a harrowed mage to become Tranquil if the mage volunteers for Tranquility (you know, because the other option is death...).
Third, just because a mage is complaining about what Alrik says, doesn't mean it happened.(Because, you know, we never actually see her as a Tranquil later)

Finally, Meredith being responsible for everything done by a templar under her command is a fair statement.  But only if Orsino is responsible for everything done by mages under his command(which is supposed to be all of the mages in Kirkwall).  If Meredith should have known of illegal acts made by various Templars, then Orsino should have known of the illegal acts made by various mages.

But with no evidence of direct involvement, and only a single Templar(Alrik) "abusing" mages, it's hardly enough to claim that Meredith's is incompetant and/or allowing things to happen.  The Grand Cleric would need a reason for her removal beyond "I just don't like you as a person."

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 08 avril 2011 - 05:23 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Koyasha wrote...

Meet Karl: A fully harrowed mage who was made tranquil.  That's just one example.  Remember apprentices don't ever get to leave the tower, so any mage that we see in-game that starts out as a mage and becomes tranquil, that was a harrowed mage.  There's also at least one mage in the courtyard that in Act 1, I think it is, makes a comment about seeing Ser Alrik order her Rite of Tranquility, and she specifically says, 'he can't do that, I passed my harrowing!'  It's an ambient comment.  I think there's another NPC that comments on her cousin having a sister who's a mage that was made tranquil, or something, also.  To suggest that it's not happening is to intentionally pretend otherwise.

And to suggest that Meredith isn't responsible if it's done by anyone in the Kirkwall templars is to completely ignore the fact that a commander is responsible for those under her command, especially when blatant and open violations of the law are being done under her command.  Either she is ordering it herself in some cases (likely) or she is intentionally permitting it to be done.

While this may be true, there's no evidence that this is a dismissable offense. Further, there are some extenuating circumstances, such as associating with known apostates. I need to go back and look at the codex entries on the Tranquil. The dragon age wikia says that "mages who... appear to be dangerous are forced (or willingly volunteer) to go through the Rite of Tranquility". There's no mention of any sort of criminal penalties for using the Rite of Tranquility on a harrowed mage as far as I know.

It might be shocking in a "you can't DO that!" sort of way, but there might not be actually any rules or laws against it.

I'm not sure it's fair to blame the Viscount.  Yes, he's weak, but his predecessor was killed by Meredith.  The City Guard doesn't have the forces to take on the templars, and the Viscount himself is an old man while Meredith is clearly a very strong and capable fighter even without the sword giving her superpowers.

I'm also not sure what he's supposed to do about the Qunari situation other than exactly what he did.  Unlike Elthina, he's not actually in charge of a military group that's doing things far outside their laws.  He has fanatical civilians among the very nobility that must support him - keep in mind that Viscount is not an autocratic position, he gets elected by the nobles.  He can't just decree that the Qunari must be left alone and go after anyone who attacks them.  Neither can he throw the Qunari out without hundreds of deaths.  Trying to keep the peace is his only option because he's not actually in charge of either of the troublemaking groups.

The viscount isn't an elected post unless there is no heir. As far as I remember, Saemus was supposed to be the next Viscount, but the noble vote is more of a contingency plan.

[Beerfish]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Who has the right to boot the Knight-Commander?

Hawke, obviously!

The Divine couldn't do it, the Seekers are three years too late, and the Grand Cleric's too scared to pick a side even when one of the sides is constantly asking for the right to utterly destroy the other.

But you know, if they just sat down and sang Chanter songs all their problems would go away. There's no reason to step in and do your job here.

Agreed, That is one reason why Hawke and his elite group are so important to the story.  All sides (mages, Qunari, Templars, Viscount etc) get or try to get Hawke to do things that are a problem politically for them.  Perhaps Hawke in the end is more to blame than we first think, though there are many events Varric portrays to Cassandra as out of the control of the Champion he does do thinks that lessen the politial pushback and add deniability of the main stake holders.

[Raiil]

RE: The possibility of Karl not being a full-fledged mage. Possible, yes, but I doubt it's probable. Anders hasn't completely lost it in act one, and I think at that point, there's no reason to distrust his comment on Karl being illegally tranquilled. If he tried to make the point in act 3 first, I might side eye it a little more.

I don't know if Meredith ever gave permission to have harrowed mages tranquil. If she gives tacit permission, I'd think less of her (I'm pro-mage but I think fairly highly of Meredith tbqh); if she makes the decision herself, then yes, she's stooped to abuse of power and she needed to be stopped.


Regardless, I think Elthina proved that she was less that committed to the ideals of neutrality in Kirkwall. Allowing her Knight-Commander to more or less rule a city when that's clearly against the rules and interfering with the natural process of finding another viscount shows clear bias. I'm not saying she didn't care for the plight of the mages, but she always struck me as someone more concerned with appearances and influences. After all, she's not going to suffer if Meredith has the city in her iron grip- she's the only person in Kirkwall ranked above the KC.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm not sure but I think the Grand Cleric has the authority to remove the Knight-Commander, but in this case Meredith has a hardcore of supporters, even with people like Thrask who ultimately rebel.

Given Meredith has been gradually increasing her hold over the city, Elthina must fear that Meredith will make a lot of trouble if she's officially removed from her position which could result in the Divine ordering a march on the city, which is the last thing Elthina wants.

I can't help but think she'd have been better off if she could borrow a batarian from Aria.  "Leave, Fargut."

...  Just me huh?

[Alamar2078]

IanPolaris wrote...
Elthina struck me as a fundamentally weak person.  She has personal courage aplenty, but the idea that somone might actually think badly of her and she might actually have to pick a side and offend someone simply seemed to paralyze her.  Elthina is genuinely hurt and shocked if you decide to read her the riot act during the Justice quest, yet she and the Chantry deserve every word.

-Polaris

I can easily see that interpretation.  In my mind I saw her as someone that was strong but sincerely believed that using force was the wrong way to go.  She believed this so much that she couldn't use her power to force the issue esp. seeing as it might have gotten UGLY fast.

I guess that Elthina was the right person but in the wrong position.  Unfortunately it's true in the game and real life ... all that "evil" needs to succeed is for "good" to do nothing.  It's a bad paraphrase but the quote is appropriate.

[IanPolaris]

Alamar,

I think Elthina's personal courage and convictions were strong, but she was weak where it mattered most, and that's decisiveness. Put her in Antivia City, and she would be beloved by everyone and not even the Crows would consider taking a contract on her for any price (for example). Put her in Denerim, and people would praise her to the heavens. These are stable places, however, filled with reasonable people where a strong hand on the Tiller isn't needed.

In Kirkwall, however, you have a Zealot and borderline lunative (even before the idol) who clearly wants to be Countess as well as Knight-Commander, a circle built in a place where the veil is so thin that demons can cross over and influence/possess even non-mages like Lady Harriman (and whose brilliant idea was that anyway?), and finally a collection of the weakest and most self-serving noble, templar, and magical lesser leaders anyone could ask for.

In a case like that, you NEED to be Ms Ironspine and it killed Elthina (in the end literally) to be decisive.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I guess that Elthina was the right person but in the wrong position.  Unfortunately it's true in the game and real life ... all that "evil" needs to succeed is for "good" to do nothing.  It's a bad paraphrase but the quote is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, that quote is perhaps the best for all sides.

If one believes that the Templars are "evil," then by Elthina doing nothing(and not removing Meredith), the Templars are able to impose their oppression upon the mages, and upon her death, allows the Templars to complete their overall plan of exterminating the lot of the mages.

If one believes the mages are "evil," then Elthina doing nothing results in the Templars hands being tied, allowing all the evil acts of mages that occurred during Act 3 prior to Elthina's death.  Her death allows the Templars to act for the forces of "good" and end the "evils" of the mages.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 08 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[IanPolaris]

The fact is Elthina knew perfectly well that the Templars were openly flouting Chantry law and the Knight Commander was at least complicit if not outright guilty of the same. If you are Grand Cleric, you HAVE to act in such a case or your authority (and that of your organization...the Chantry in this case) becomes worthless.

Elthina was clearly afraid to act in any way, and it killed her. I blame Elthina most of all for what happened in Kirkwall. She wasn't possessed, was sane even from the start, and had the power, moral authority, and information to act and she did not.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Wulfram]

Elthina had some political judgement and common sense, rather than a naive belief that she could fix everything by simply ordering it.

Ms Ironspine would achieve nothing except making Anders superfluous..

[TheJist]

Way to many people harping on the grand cleric who was just trying to figure out how to settle the matter without violence but the mr "Herp Derp" anders comes and destroys the chantry and we lose the only person who was capable of settling it without violence.

[IanPolaris]

TheJist wrote...

Way to many people harping on the grand cleric who was just trying to figure out how to settle the matter without violence but the mr "Herp Derp" anders comes and destroys the chantry and we lose the only person who was capable of settling it without violence.

I am not excusing what Anders did in the slightest, but the proximate cause for the explosion (which would have happened evetually anyways...Anders or no Anders) is Elthina's persistant and maddening refusal to act.  She has the power and authority to end the situation (one way or the other) in Kirkwall and seems paralyzed by that responsibility.

Elthina should have been replaced long ago.  The fact that Elthina refused to act within her authority and remove the Knight Commander (when it was well within her rights to do so) when the templars were openly breaking Chantry Law and the KC was complicit is the number one thing I blame her for.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

Erm, no. The very reason Elthina was killed was to prevent her from acting. Anders said it himself. The chance for compromise is now removed, there will be war.
Elthina was working behind the scenes, and Anders killed her for it.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is Elthina knew perfectly well that the Templars were openly flouting Chantry law and the Knight Commander was at least complicit if not outright guilty of the same. If you are Grand Cleric, you HAVE to act in such a case or your authority (and that of your organization...the Chantry in this case) becomes worthless.

There is no evidence that Templars were flouting Chantry law.  Only that one Templar(Alric) was.  The Knight Commander is no more complicit in the actions of one Templar than First Enchanter Orsino is of mages who openly flout Chantry Law by practicing blood magic.

One cannot have it both ways.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Elthina had some political judgement and common sense, rather than a naive belief that she could fix everything by simply ordering it.

Ms Ironspine would achieve nothing except making Anders superfluous..

Actually Elthina's political judgement was horrid.  You can't negotiate if only one side is willing to negotiate, and especially if one side openly flouts the authority you are supposed to represent.

When that happens, you have to bring the hammer down.  You must or you lose authority (and Elthina certainly did in the eyes of the KC.....proven by the KC going over her head and ignoring her in the meantime so blatently).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is Elthina knew perfectly well that the Templars were openly flouting Chantry law and the Knight Commander was at least complicit if not outright guilty of the same. If you are Grand Cleric, you HAVE to act in such a case or your authority (and that of your organization...the Chantry in this case) becomes worthless.

There is no evidence that Templars were flouting Chantry law.  Only that one Templar(Alric) was.  The Knight Commander is no more complicit in the actions of one Templar than First Enchanter Orsino is of mages who openly flout Chantry Law by practicing blood magic.

One cannot have it both ways.

It wasn't the act of one man.  Listen to the banter.  Turning harrowed mages into Tranquil is rampant in the Gallows, and everyone knew about Ser Alrik (Cullen outright admits this) and nothing was ever done.  That makes the Templars as a whole complicit.  Also Meridith is clearly taking political rights that aren't hers as a Templar in Act 3. 

As for Elthina quietly negotiating, the root of the problem was Meridith.  That should be obvious to everyone.  Thrask was quite right in this and Meridith did (by either act or failure to act) violate Chantry law and that's a firable offense.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Elthina had some political judgement and common sense, rather than a naive belief that she could fix everything by simply ordering it.

Ms Ironspine would achieve nothing except making Anders superfluous..

Actually Elthina's political judgement was horrid.  You can't negotiate if only one side is willing to negotiate, and especially if one side openly flouts the authority you are supposed to represent.

When that happens, you have to bring the hammer down.  You must or you lose authority (and Elthina certainly did in the eyes of the KC.....proven by the KC going over her head and ignoring her in the meantime so blatently).

Issuing orders you know are going to be disobeyed is a great way to destroy your authority.  "Bringing the hammer down" on Meredith would have resulted in immediate disaster, whereas her attempts to bring compromise scared Anders enough that he felt the need to kill her.

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The fact is Elthina knew perfectly well that the Templars were openly flouting Chantry law and the Knight Commander was at least complicit if not outright guilty of the same. If you are Grand Cleric, you HAVE to act in such a case or your authority (and that of your organization...the Chantry in this case) becomes worthless.

There is no evidence that Templars were flouting Chantry law.  Only that one Templar(Alric) was.  The Knight Commander is no more complicit in the actions of one Templar than First Enchanter Orsino is of mages who openly flout Chantry Law by practicing blood magic.

One cannot have it both ways.

It wasn't the act of one man.  Listen to the banter.  Turning harrowed mages into Tranquil is rampant in the Gallows, and everyone knew about Ser Alrik (Cullen outright admits this) and nothing was ever done.  That makes the Templars as a whole complicit.  Also Meridith is clearly taking political rights that aren't hers as a Templar in Act 3. 

As for Elthina quietly negotiating, the root of the problem was Meridith.  That should be obvious to everyone.  Thrask was quite right in this and Meridith did (by either act or failure to act) violate Chantry law and that's a firable offense.

-Polaris

There is no banter of mages being turned Tranquil (other than Anders, who it sketchy).  The only banter from other people is "oh noes, they might make me tranquil"  But we don't ever see or hear her later.  Proving nothing.

Cullen admits that Alrik was extreme.  Not that he did anything illegal.

And if Cullen's statements mean that all Templars are complicit, then Orsino's statements in Act 3 (if he gives you the quest to hunt down Grace) make him, and all mages, complicit in violating Chantry law (which for mages, is a killable offense).

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Issuing orders you know are going to be disobeyed is a great way to destroy your authority.  "Bringing the hammer down" on Meredith would have resulted in immediate disaster, whereas her attempts to bring compromise scared Anders enough that he felt the need to kill her.

Anders wasn't scared of Elthina.  He was just tired of waiting.  All Anders did was step up the inevitable (which makes his act even less excuseable...not that it was to start with).  You're right about the first law of command: Never ever issue an order you know won't be obeyed.  It doesn't apply here.  There were already by Act 2 a critical mass of Templars that also had had it up to their eyebrows with Meridith and they weren't all mage-lovers by a long chalk.  If Elthina tells Knight-Captain Cullen that Meridith has been relieved of her command and he is to take over as Acting Knight Commander until the Knight Vigalent can sent or appoint a replacement, he'll obey and so will most of the Templars, I promise you.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

You aren't listening then. There is at one case where a harrowed mage askes a tranquil mage who was harrowed if she remembers nothing and she says it was an illicit affair and only Knight Captain Cullen can command her now.

Tranquilizing harrowed mages is against Chantry law but the practice is rife within the Gallows. You see Ser Alrik as the most obvious and vile example, but one templar isn't enough to explain the fact the Gallows have far, far too many Tranquil if the Chantry laws are being followed....and tranquility on this scale can't possibly happen withoutthe KC knowing about it and being complicit.

-Polaris