537 réponses à ce sujet

[vhatever]

Runaan wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Runaan wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Runaan wrote...

This is rather "aside" from the argument at hand, but I feel the need to link something that gave me a different perspective on racism and white privilege a while back: www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

A lot of this seems to hinge on the idea of the 'invisible knapsack' of white privilege concept the essay focuses on.
of discussion.

it's kind of funny you link to something supposedly addressing "soft racism" in the form of white privilege, yet what you link is actually full of classism. Typical liberal hypocritical garbage. it's no wonder they try to control education so much. You got start young to teach them such completely illogical, hypocritical fatnasy and accept it as reality.

I find it difficult to believe that -any- essay could address things like racism, classism, sexism, and any other -ism all at the same time. I don't think you can fault the essay, either, for failing to address an entirely different issue than its primary topic; arguments typically don't work like that, it leads to all kinds of logical fallacy.

I linked the essay in an argument about racism. I didn't link the essay to start an argument about "liberal, hypocritical garbage"--or education, which you bring up with no discernable link to your claim. 

You linked a lie-filled, ignorant, racist, and classist piece of leftist filth that's been used as propganada by ignorant, clasist,  racist liberals. It's like someone stabbing you to death and the jury acquiting  the person who stabbed you thiry times, because they didn't actually kill, you killed yourself by bleeding too much. It's illogical trash. Like a pig, feel free to wallow in it all you wish.

Nothing you say here gives me anything to defend myself or my own argument with. Nothing you say here actually points out what it is in the essay that you disagree with; you're merely throwing names and insults. While I'd like to debate with you, you're not making it very easy (or possible). If you've honestly something worthwhile to say about the essay--and if I've read it incorrectly and am, in fact, ignorant--I'd like to hear it. I could be missing something.

Feel free to send me a personal message or something about it; this topic isn't -about- the essay, after all. 

The whole essay assumes that all white people are middle/upper middle class, at a bare minimum. Many white people are not. These are classist and racist assumptions and entirely ignorant of reality. Garbage in, garbage out. You can't start with a lie-filled premise and end up with the truth. Not unless you are a brain dead liberal, anyway.

[Balraw]

Runaan wrote...

A more productive and sympathetic way to look at things like this (instead of the "it's a fantasy world" argument) may be to think about a reversed situation. How would white individuals feel about a "fantasy world" where 99% of the characters were black? About a human noble origin story featuring a black family in which suddenly the PC, a white male, seems out of place?

If all the characters featured were black then i would submerge myself into that world (just like I do with DA:O currently), without feeling the need to put my own personal perceptions on how things work in the "real world" into the fantasy game setting. 

If I was the only white character then I would role play a reason as to why this was the case.  I would use my own imagination to give me a valid reason to be there and then enjoy the game for what it is.

[Xeiru]

Daryn Mercio wrote...


Honestly, I'd rather play a black gangster than a white gangster. Unless the white gangster was in the mafia, but only because I am Italian.
But back to GTA SA, I didn't seem to care that CJ was black. It was more realistic to me that a guy who grew up in the hood is the one who has to do crimes to survive because his childhood gave him no opportunities. Idk, just my 2 cents

Yeah criminals from the hood are criminals because they have to be. They lack the ability to, you know, get a job.

[Dark83]

Runaan wrote...

There are actually a few black NPCs in the game--the chantry board guy in Lothering comes to mind. In addition, if black people don't exist in Ferelden, the option to create a black-skinned character really shouldn't have been included in the first place, because your creation of such a character would create a plot hole in itself, yes? 

Tattooed Dwarves who aren't Casteless do not exist. There does not exist any Casteless dwarves without a tattoo. (Aside from surface born, obviously, but that's neither origin.)
Dalish Elves always have tattoos representing their god.

Yet you can create characters that have, or don't have, a tattoo regardless of the fact that such a combination does not exist in the game. The devs explicitly pointed this out - in the setting, this is fact. However, in the interest of letting you look like whatever you want, they'll let you do it. (I tend to like making tattooed, bald mages.)

Someone mentioned entitlement before, and this is a shining example. What we have here is "Game plus extra vanity options". This is clearly their view - they could have limited options, but chose not to so that we have a wider selection. Then we end up with complaints about "Game without tailoring to your vanity". Jeez.

[Daryn Mercio]

kingthrall wrote...

][/url]

oh, my god. when I read the caption, I laughed so damn hard remembering whats-his-face diss Swift xD
and the racially diverse thing incorporated into it made it seem like he'd say something like that

[code2501]

I do agree I was a touch disapointed the game did not adjust the skin tone of the noble family members a bit to account for my sassy spoilt brat... Bio folks please take note.

[Xeiru]

Dark83 wrote...

Runaan wrote...

There are actually a few black NPCs in the game--the chantry board guy in Lothering comes to mind. In addition, if black people don't exist in Ferelden, the option to create a black-skinned character really shouldn't have been included in the first place, because your creation of such a character would create a plot hole in itself, yes? 

Tattooed Dwarves who aren't Casteless do not exist. There does not exist any Casteless dwarves without a tattoo. (Aside from surface born, obviously, but that's neither origin.)
Dalish Elves always have tattoos representing their god.

Yet you can create characters that have, or don't have, a tattoo regardless of the fact that such a combination does not exist in the game. The devs explicitly pointed this out - in the setting, this is fact. However, in the interest of letting you look like whatever you want, they'll let you do it. (I tend to like making tattooed, bald mages.)

Someone mentioned entitlement before, and this is a shining example. What we have here is "Game plus extra vanity options". This is clearly their view - they could have limited options, but chose not to so that we have a wider selection. Then we end up with complaints about "Game without tailoring to your vanity". Jeez.

The more you post, the more I like you. Its nice to know appreciation for well crafted lore isn't dead, though it might well be if all these "tailor your bloody story to me or don't release it at all" people don't learn to shut up a bit.

As to the people arguing about some ridiculous appologist femenists view on racism. She's an appologist and a feminist. That right there is enough to dismiss her opinion on the matter out of hand. The fact she damned herself out of her own mouth by posting ignorant nonsense about all white people getting treated like the upper and upper middle class of white people get treated is just icing on the cake. Stop arguing about the stupid woman and move back to the topic at hand, why the ridiculous whiners in this thread should just get over themselves.

[elkston]

Xeiru wrote...

The more you post, the more I like you. Its nice to know appreciation for well crafted lore isn't dead, though it might well be if all these "tailor your bloody story to me or don't release it at all" people don't learn to shut up a bit.

So according to you, it simply destroys the lore & your enjoyment of the game if somebody else far, far away is allowed to  create a black character and has black parents to match.   No change to the story, no new dialogue, no nothing.

It burns you up even if it is not affecting your game?

No one cares if it seems silly to you.  They will make up their own story as to why they are the lone wolves out there.  Or maybe they don't even care about it, but simply want an avatar who looks black.  So this person enjoying the game their way, on their own computer, MILES away from you -- is destroying the story and background of Dragon Age: Origins?

Would I prefer to have this option rather than a new DLC or perhaps a tune up of archery?  Of course not.  But this is a discussion board.  We talk about things.  We discuss options.  And somehow simply bringing this up has brought out the worst in some people.

[Runaan]

I guess I was wrong about the NPC in Lothering, apologies, my memory failed me. And for the "plot hole" thing, yes, there are several character customization options that create supposed "plot holes" from a lore standpoint as well. I never said this was positive or negative; I should've clarified, it was more of a devil's advocate thing.



As for the essay I linked, as I said, I didn't mean to get into an argument about the essay itself. I simply think the essay (author aside, her "credibility" shouldn't really even be brought up here) presents a valid tool for viewing a different side of arguments such as this one. I just don't think the argument of "it's a fantasy world, stop complaining" is entirely fair.

[vhatever]

Runaan wrote...

I guess I was wrong about the NPC in Lothering, apologies, my memory failed me. And for the "plot hole" thing, yes, there are several character customization options that create supposed "plot holes" from a lore standpoint as well. I never said this was positive or negative; I should've clarified, it was more of a devil's advocate thing.

As for the essay I linked, as I said, I didn't mean to get into an argument about the essay itself. I simply think the essay (author aside, her "credibility" shouldn't really even be brought up here) presents a valid tool for viewing a different side of arguments such as this one. I just don't think the argument of "it's a fantasy world, stop complaining" is entirely fair.

A child can be much darker/lighter in skin complexion than his/her parents, without the mother having an affair.

A child could have been from a different marriage and still be considered party of noble family X or Y.

A child's mother could have had an affair. It happens. It often happens in video games/RPGs.

A child could be adopted-- ahem,  you will see a good example of this had you actually played through the game..


There is no plot hole, there is no issue.

Modifié par vhatever, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:59 .

[Dark83]

elkston wrote...

So according to you, it simply destroys the lore & your enjoyment of the game if somebody else far, far away is allowed to  create a black character and has black parents to match.   No change to the story, no new dialogue, no nothing.

It burns you up even if it is not affecting your game?

<snip>

Would
I prefer to have this option rather than a new DLC or perhaps a tune up
of archery?  Of course not.  But this is a discussion board.  We talk
about things.  We discuss options.  And somehow simply bringing this up
has brought out the worst in some people.

His point, I believe, is that the Story and the Lore states that the Human Noble is white. To be more precise, he is a Fereldan. This is all that is accounted for. That is all that needs to be accounted for. The character is a Cousland. These are the Couslands. That the player makes their Cousland bright purple is irrelevant to the game and integrity of the story - the character is Cousland, a native Fereldan born to Lord and Lady Cousland.


It would be a waste of resources to have anything extra to account for... what? Non-Fereldan, Non-Cousland Couslands? This waste of resources DO directly affect everyone elses game. You have at minimum three characters (ignoring the nephew and sister-in-law) who would need their models dynamically generated based on your ethinicity - which the game is somehow supposed to pick up on. If it's just skintone, then you'd end up with the most offensive unintentional blackface in recent popular media. If it's anything more it would be an even more complete waste of resources for an irrelevant issue (they all die). All that wasted time and manpower could be better used to have all the origins be as good as the Dwarf Noble one (the scope and duration and so on).

(A minor aside about the Chasinds, I don't think they're black - Alistair identifies Morrigan as Chasind when she first shows up.)

Given your last paragraph, when someone suggests something, it is a perfectly valid response to say it is a waste of resources better put elsewhere. In fact, if anyone actually felt strongly about it, the toolset is out. We already have mods for Morrigan and Leilana, there's no reason why you can't turn the Couslands black in your game. However, it is definetely a squandering of resources better used to fix stuff. Like the memory leak.

Modifié par Dark83, 19 novembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[dbmccart]

Pseudo310 wrote...

Hey Bioware, I have some quick feedback for you. I made a black human noble character. His whole family was white. The whole kingdom was white. That is just silly. Could you do some palette-swapping or something to make the characters who are only in the game's intro consistent with your skin tone? I realize the "no black people in Ferelden" conversation has already been done, but unless there is a reveal that my character was adopted it's jarring and dumb for my family to be the whitest white people. It was done in Fallout 3 and I really appreciated it then. It's a nice acknowledgment that not everyone playing these games is white.

Thanks.

Trust me, it can't be as bad as how Fallout 3 crudely pasted a white mans face on a blavk mans body. I mean heck parts of the face were still white. Well make up your own origin story for it or something. Say that your mom had an affair or you were adopted. You can also say that your character was shot 9 times with a crossbow and name him Icetray.

[Dark83]

vhatever wrote...

A child can be much darker/lighter in skin complexion than his/her parents, without the mother having an affair.

A child could have been from a different marriage and still be considered party of noble family X or Y.

A child's mother could have had an affair. It happens. It often happens in video games/RPGs.

A child could be adopted-- take a look at alistair story, for instance Surprise, surprise, another noble.


There is no plot hole, there is no issue.

Of course there isn't, since you just explicitly rewrote the origin story (with the last three). It's not the Noble Human origin anymore - where you are the legitimate second child of the Couslands.

Skin complexion isn't what makes black people look different from white people, it's also facial structure. I'd think it'd be more offensive to adjust the skin tone without adjusting facial structure - it would just look wrong, and sloppy.

[GhostSeraph]

Why no black Sten? That's what I want to know. He looks pretty cool in the trailer but is mad ugly as a white guy in the actual game.

[vhatever]

Dark83 wrote...

vhatever wrote...

A child can be much darker/lighter in skin complexion than his/her parents, without the mother having an affair.

A child could have been from a different marriage and still be considered party of noble family X or Y.

A child's mother could have had an affair. It happens. It often happens in video games/RPGs.

A child could be adopted-- take a look at alistair story, for instance Surprise, surprise, another noble.


There is no plot hole, there is no issue.

Of course there isn't, since you just explicitly rewrote the origin story (with the last three). It's not the Noble Human origin anymore - where you are the legitimate second child of the Couslands.

Skin complexion isn't what makes black people look different from white people, it's also facial structure. I'd think it'd be more offensive to adjust the skin tone without adjusting facial structure - it would just look wrong, and sloppy.

Are noble lines only through the father? What piece of lore did you come across that told you this? You seem to be the one rewriting lore. As far as I know, the origins story doesn't start with you being in itch in some guy's ******.

[vhatever]

GhostSeraph wrote...

Why no black Sten? That's what I want to know. He looks pretty cool in the trailer but is mad ugly as a white guy in the actual game.

Cause he's not black and he's not meant to be? He should be black cause he looks cool? Huh?

How come no one wonders why Flemmeth has a mdwestern american accent and Morrigan has a british one?

[GhostSeraph]

vhatever wrote...

GhostSeraph wrote...

Why no black Sten? That's what I want to know. He looks pretty cool in the trailer but is mad ugly as a white guy in the actual game.

Cause he's not black and he's not meant to be? He should be black cause he looks cool? Huh?

How come no one wonders why Flemmeth has a mdwestern american accent and Morrigan has a british one?

*sigh*
I was more commenting on the fact that he's an incredibly ugly barbarian with a deformed face in the game whereas the commercials make him look less..video game like? In case you did not notice, Sten is black in the trailers.  Race is more incidental but the black guy actually looked better with the cornrows. I don't expect the trailer to be representative of the game, but I'd like to know the motives behind the race change for the trailer. I eagerly anticipate your next indignant misinterpretation of my response...

Modifié par GhostSeraph, 19 novembre 2009 - 05:03 .

[gobslat]

at the risk of being slightly off topic, several people have expressed the view that black people would not have been common in 12th century england. while agreeing generally with some later views that this game is in fact NOT set in england I feel it would be useful to point out that black people most certainly DID exist 12th century england and they mostly would have been Nobles and Traders.



the turn of that millenium was the hight of the Moors power and they occupied almost the entire Iberian peninsula. for example; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors



or how about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello (tho i realize this was set a few hundred years later)



Africa is really not that far from england and there is a long history of interaction between in recent historical times.



I realize some people may feel this is off the point somewhat but several people have expressed this view so far in this thread and i feel it needed some correcting.

[Xeiru]

Dark83 wrote...

elkston wrote...

So according to you, it simply destroys the lore & your enjoyment of the game if somebody else far, far away is allowed to  create a black character and has black parents to match.   No change to the story, no new dialogue, no nothing.

It burns you up even if it is not affecting your game?



Would
I prefer to have this option rather than a new DLC or perhaps a tune up
of archery?  Of course not.  But this is a discussion board.  We talk
about things.  We discuss options.  And somehow simply bringing this up
has brought out the worst in some people.

His point, I believe, is that the Story and the Lore states that the Human Noble is white. To be more precise, he is a Fereldan. This is all that is accounted for. That is all that needs to be accounted for. The character is a Cousland. These are the Couslands. That the player makes their Cousland bright purple is irrelevant to the game and integrity of the story - the character is Cousland, a native Fereldan born to Lord and Lady Cousland.


It would be a waste of resources to have anything extra to account for... what? Non-Fereldan, Non-Cousland Couslands? This waste of resources DO directly affect everyone elses game. You have at minimum three characters (ignoring the nephew and sister-in-law) who would need their models dynamically generated based on your ethinicity - which the game is somehow supposed to pick up on. If it's just skintone, then you'd end up with the most offensive unintentional blackface in recent popular media. If it's anything more it would be an even more complete waste of resources for an irrelevant issue (they all die). All that wasted time and manpower could be better used to have all the origins be as good as the Dwarf Noble one (the scope and duration and so on).

(A minor aside about the Chasinds, I don't think they're black - Alistair identifies Morrigan as Chasind when she first shows up.)

Given your last paragraph, when someone suggests something, it is a perfectly valid response to say it is a waste of resources better put elsewhere. In fact, if anyone actually felt strongly about it, the toolset is out. We already have mods for Morrigan and Leilana, there's no reason why you can't turn the Couslands black in your game. However, it is definetely a squandering of resources better used to fix stuff. Like the memory leak.

Spot on.

[Mo_Dubbz]

funny thing.. i was thinking about this same thing at work today. i know most of the time these type of stories take place in a "euro-style" setting, but there are even black people in china... soooo come on bioware. thats all i got. great game though

[pewbz]

Runaan wrote...

I guess I was wrong about the NPC in Lothering, apologies, my memory failed me. And for the "plot hole" thing, yes, there are several character customization options that create supposed "plot holes" from a lore standpoint as well. I never said this was positive or negative; I should've clarified, it was more of a devil's advocate thing.

That's so typical. The one person layin' da funk just _has_ to be black, right? >;(


So, seeing as the thread is derailed now..

Could someone please take the conversation with the Oak and put a beat under it?

[vhatever]

gobslat wrote...


at the risk of being slightly off topic, several people have expressed the view that black people would not have been common in 12th century england. while agreeing generally with some later views that this game is in fact NOT set in england I feel it would be useful to point out that black people most certainly DID exist 12th century england and they mostly would have been Nobles and Traders.

the turn of that millenium was the hight of the Moors power and they occupied almost the entire Iberian peninsula. for example; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

or how about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello (tho i realize this was set a few hundred years later)
.

LOL. Maybe 5% of the Moorish army was black. And they were conscripts, not trader or nobleman. The moors were berber and arabs, both "white"/caucasian. The either fought or they died.

[The Console Version is good]

In my opinion Psuedo has a right to discuss this and all those people talking about realism need come back to reality themselves. Since when was it wrong to make point out a flaw in the game?

Modifié par The Console Version is good, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:25 .

[vhatever]

The Console Version is good wrote...

In my opinion Psuedo has a right to discuss this and all those people talking about realism need come back to reality themselves. Since when was it wrong to make point out a flaw in the game?

 I's about as big of a "flaw" as not being able to make a left handed character. Handism!