537 réponses à ce sujet

[Xarne]

Pseudo310 wrote...

lawsie100 wrote...

yeah this is earth. That is fereldan. See the difference? No? Look harder. We have many black people on this earth. They dont. Its a fantasy. Fantasy. Fan-tasy world.

Yeah, I know most white people's fantasy world is one without black people in it.

But you guys get that I'm not complaining about the lack of black people in Ferelden, right? That's a non-issue. I'm saying that it's silly to make a black character who has a white family. Especially since there's no other black people in Ferelden, he or she had to come from somewhere. So I'm giving Bioware some feedback on that. Having multiple character models for the family wouldn't be the hard I bet.

I understand what you mean and I agree. My first playthrough was a black soldier...talk about some akward family photos!
And yes, I agree that as bad as it was, even FallOut3 had the simple very workaround to it.
But here let me put this out there:
We're talking reality, ok, so not a lot of black people in 12th cent England...fair enough.
But it's reality to have strong female characters, town leaders, and warriors...in 12th century england? come on.
If you were female in 12th cent Europe you were less than 2nd class citizen. As town leaders (except being the queen?), they lacked the strength of men so - warriors?
So, be careful how much 'reality' you want to cite to defend your cause.

And no, that chick from the LOTOR who who killed the Lich King is not history...that's fantasy - HIGH Fantasy

[Xeiru]

elkston wrote...


My words:

Just a modest concession. No need to change lore, plot, etc.  Let us make up our own justification for our existence.

Thats what they are doing now, black son of a white guy, and you are whining about it. If you can make up your own justification about the absurd idea of a single family of black nobles in Ferelden you can make up an even easier story about a single black child of white noble parentage in ferelden (Hint: It starts with "a" and ends in "doption").

I mean if you're just going to change the lore to suit you anyway why do you even need developer help? The part  of the story you are referring to is all of half an hour long, if you take your time. Just do it real fast with one eye closed peaking between your fingers and when its all over say "They were actually black" three times fast to yourself and MOVE ON.

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

Pseudo310 wrote...

Hey Bioware, I have some quick feedback for you. I made a black human noble character. His whole family was white. The whole kingdom was white. That is just silly. Could you do some palette-swapping or something to make the characters who are only in the game's intro consistent with your skin tone? I realize the "no black people in Ferelden" conversation has already been done, but unless there is a reveal that my character was adopted it's jarring and dumb for my family to be the whitest white people. It was done in Fallout 3 and I really appreciated it then. It's a nice acknowledgment that not everyone playing these games is white.

Thanks.

my guess is either you were adopted, or there is a reason your human noble mom didn't come to bed that night when sho-nuff was in town other than "i was in the library talking to the sage".

[spokenwordd]

TheRealBrave wrote...

spokenwordd wrote...

Xeiru wrote...

Yeah there were no black slaves in europe. But black nobles? Hell yeah!

Hello!  Everyone!  The whole point here is that 12th century Europe has NOTHING to do with THIS game.  This game is not based on historic Europe, it takes place in another world in dimension "I don't really exist". 

The makers of the game are not bound by actually European history in the lore development, has anyone read the lore? 100% of the lore is NOT based on any facts!  One of the races in the game is human, there are many ethnicities of human beings but only one race.   Out of the human race there are caucasians, blacks, asians etc etc.  Therefore, ANY etnicity of human being can be used in this game's lore.  All the humans in the game are human beings.  You should be able to roll any color human you want if you are playing a human being AND if you roll a black human then your parents ought to be black or there is something reaaally wrong with that image.

This is an issue of continuity not history... 

While what you say is somewhat true, there are hardly any black humans in this game. I think I only saw one the whole time, and he was an employee of that Mage Guild and he had a foreign accent. That would leave me to believe that Black Humans aren't natural inhabitants of Fereldan, but come from a distant land/continent. (Sort of like Europe/Africa - hence the comparisons)

You have a good point but in making it you have solidified my intial statement.  The lore is controlled by the designers.  There is no rule that you cannot have a variety of human ethnicities on Fereldan, this was simply overlooked.  This is not a huge issue for me but for continuity sake if you roll a black toon, your parents should be black.

Any arguements that "yeah but black humans are not native to Fereldan" are trumped by the fact that this is fiction and the writers can craft any lore they want free of comparison to ACTUAL human history [which ironically began in Africa NOT Europe].

I love this game and still play my black human noble with white parents... not a deal breaker just not consistent...

[Xeiru]

By popular request....

Malkut wrote...

Yeah, I noticed the same thing.  I created a blond city elf once.  He looked like he was related to his wife, not his cousin.  Creepy.

Oh my god! The game is racist against blonde people! We should immediately change it so your parents have the same hair color as you so this recessive gene trait is one that should obviously have been passed on, instead of one which could only "plausibly" be passed on. Or, you can stop complaining about random stupid nonsense.

There, now i've yelled at and insulted you for both of your stupid posts.

(FYI: At the time I didn't think you were really whining, I assumed you were smart enough to realize hair color is such a small thing even if it wasn't possible (both parents had blonde, you come out with brown), that it doesn't really matter. I'll not make that mistake again with you and just assume that everything you say has not an ounce of sarcasm, and you have not an ounce of common sense.)

[Jiggasaurus]

Xeiru wrote...

Jiggasaurus wrote...

CJohnJones wrote...

cipher86 wrote...

Black people have no place in Ferelden, THAT'S why. It's ****ing Europe, basically. If there WERE black people, they'd be slaves, and that would be WAY worse for Bioware.

So STFU

There were actually occasionally black people in Europe in the middle ages and not all of them were slaves, though I guess about all of them were travelers. African features have been submerged in places like Sicily, less so in Spain where Middle Eastern and African blood are what give the people their distinctive appearance. Before the Moorish invasions they were mostly Celts with some others mixed in from the Roman conquest. It was sufficiently possible that by the time of the renaissance, Othello could plausibly be portrayed as an Italian general.

Black slavery is relatively modern invention. Before the discovery of the New World, most African slaves were in Africa, with a few in the Middle East.

Some black people overstate the black contribution to european history, but  why do white people often deny it entirely? Everywhere there is blood from the far corners of the Old World. A tribe in Africa turns out to have blood from a line of Hebrew priests. Hungarians have a strong Asian streak. Turks are partly related to the Irish (well, Western European Celts, anyway). Gypsies (I know, a non-pc term) turn out to be the Rom people from India. Historical research and the human genome project have turned people's ideas of who is who on their heads.

So, can we give the idea that there could never be black people in a Eurocentric fantasy world a rest?

Good post although it will unfortunatly go over the majority here who would rather persue a flame war, the shipping traderoutes of medieval Europe from Britain (Devon/Cornwall) through the Southern Spansh  & Northern Morrocon entry to the Mediterranean sea through to Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Italy & Greece were vast. It would be foolish to believe the ethnic divide was so aparent as the Racist views of a die gone era would have us believe.

You want it addressed? Here I'll address it.

This isn't medieval europe. That whole argument is null and void. This is ferelden. In Ferelden the country, there are no black people. Therefore a random single family of black nobles doesn't make sense. Now if we were playing in the Qunari (sp?) lands, then it wouldn't make sense for there to be a random WHITE noble family. Whats funny is if that was the case, complaining would be considered both humerous AND racist. Get over yourselves please.

Calm down, the original quote had someone making a point wich several posters myself included dont agree with, You did not write the lore for the game, nowhere in the Codex does it say about Ferelden being void of any black/asian/chinese skin toned people or for the white ethnicity to reign supreme, you just assume it so, and if that was the case why would they even bother allowing us to make the characters with the skin-tone to begin with it's absurd.

[Xeiru]

spokenwordd wrote...


Any arguements that "yeah but black humans are not native to Fereldan" are trumped by the fact that this is fiction and the writers can craft any lore they want...

Unless that lore doesn't include a family of black nobles. Because that would be racist and require a 5+ page long thread of whining.

[salbine]

(Not poking at your Salbine, just using your point in context of this argument).

My point was to agree that it's stupid to allow the creation of characters that don't make sense for the story, not to say that any prejudice is involved. Since story is supposed to be one of this game's strengths, they should have taken more care to ensure that the characters you can create will fit the story. Otherwise it's just a farce. And like I said, I'm not complaining. Creating and playing an old character is comedy gold, and I doubt that's what the writers were going for.

[Malkut]

Xeiru wrote...

We should immediately change it so your parents have the same hair color as you so this recessive gene trait is one that should obviously have been passed on, instead of one which could only "plausibly" be passed on.

Yes, that is exactly what I want, in so many words.

[Xeiru]

Jiggasaurus wrote...

Calm down, the original quote had someone making a point wich several posters myself included dont agree with, You did not write the lore for the game, nowhere in the Codex does it say about Ferelden being void of any black/asian/chinese skin toned people or for the white ethnicity to reign supreme, you just assume it so, and if that was the case why would they even bother allowing us to make the characters with the skin-tone to begin with it's absurd.

Your right, I guess its just a coincidence that virtually everyone in Ferelden currently is white, and the lone black guy is from some far off place called Qunari(sp?).

As for why they let you roll a black guy anyway? Because if they didn't there would be even more whining than we have right now, because black people especially seem to go out of their way to find a reason to call someone or something racist. (If you'll notice there is no Asian or Indian pallete or facial structure, and there is no "OMG NO ASIAN/INDIAN NOBLES" post.)

[elkston]

Xeiru,



You've got a chip on your shoulder about something. I am finished with this conversation.

[bzombo]

ultimately it's up to the developers, but i can understand wanting the consistency. if you make a black pc, the parents should be black. if you're going to include the skin tone option, it should be there for the family too. i don't think asking for consistency in skin tone is being overbearing or too demanding. maybe if playing a black character was not an option i'd feel differently, but it is there and so it seems like just an oversight. nothing that either side of the debate should get too upset over.

[Xeiru]

elkston wrote...

Xeiru,

You've got a chip on your shoulder about something. I am finished with this conversation.

Actually, I'm just having fun trolling people who are being stupid about something inconsequential. Glad you're finished though, one less guy posting irrelevant drivel about the real world making racist claims for preferential treatment and claiming anyone who disagrees with their view is a bigot.

[Riot Inducer]

Umm yeah skipped through a few pages of this because I find most of the arguments (both for or against) a bit silly. Why is this a racist issue? The Cousland family is only mentioned for the human noble origin, if you play another origin the Couslands are *never* mentioned, they simply don't exist. Now I would like the family's skin tone to change somewhat to reflect the PC's simply for the role-play quality, it's a bit odd to have to take it on faith that your character was adopted or something.

[Wolff Laarcen]

[Malkut]

bzombo wrote...

ultimately it's up to the developers, but i can understand wanting the consistency. if you make a black pc, the parents should be black. if you're going to include the skin tone option, it should be there for the family too. i don't think asking for consistency in skin tone is being overbearing or too demanding. maybe if playing a black character was not an option i'd feel differently, but it is there and so it seems like just an oversight. nothing that either side of the debate should get too upset over.

Nobody is upset.  The OP was making jokes, I was making jokes, and Xeiru thinks is doing that thing that 14 year olds do when they discover the Internet, where they say something stupid and then claim to be the troll puppetmaster when people get riled up.

Just another day on the Internet.

[GStruwe]

Fereldians who look asian - are most likely not from Ferelden. They are more likely from Orlais. Sten - is a black man from Par Vollen. Which is the Qunari homeland, which is north of Ferelden. The Qunari rarely leave Par Vollen if it's not for business.



Hence, the lack of black people. And asians. I don't think they have any race that is more alike to the middle-eastern people, but really. Does it matter? You don't technically play as a black person, as you are not playing as a Qunari. You're playing as a fereldian human noble, whom is very tanned. You need to realize this, that you're not playing as a black man if you look at it technically. Your imagination may say otherwise, and your character you made maybe says otherwise. But lore-wise, you are a tanned white male.

[Jiggasaurus]

Xeiru wrote...

Jiggasaurus wrote...

Calm down, the original quote had someone making a point wich several posters myself included dont agree with, You did not write the lore for the game, nowhere in the Codex does it say about Ferelden being void of any black/asian/chinese skin toned people or for the white ethnicity to reign supreme, you just assume it so, and if that was the case why would they even bother allowing us to make the characters with the skin-tone to begin with it's absurd.

Your right, I guess its just a coincidence that virtually everyone in Ferelden currently is white, and the lone black guy is from some far off place called Qunari(sp?).

As for why they let you roll a black guy anyway? Because if they didn't there would be even more whining than we have right now, because black people especially seem to go out of their way to find a reason to call someone or something racist. (If you'll notice there is no Asian or Indian pallete or facial structure, and there is no "OMG NO ASIAN/INDIAN NOBLES" post.)

They dont let you 'roll a black guy' they give you the choice of multiple character creations through the creation tool, as other games have shown like in my original comment of fallout 3 they've created a tool that allows the ethnicity to change with the decision of the players original creation, great, I'm not expecting every single game to do this now they've done it but in a game thats going to have so much prevelent download content as planned and patchs/addons I dont believe the orignal posts is looking beyond the realms of possibility to expect somethign to be done about his request. It's not like hes asking the Bioware staff to walk on water here, just eventually get around to making an addon that will allow him to create an 'Origin' story for his ethnicity of choice, what exacltly is so wrong with that request?

[Anasurimbor_Kellhus]

Reading the first page of this was very amusing, seems someone has a little bit of a chip on their shoulder =)

[Xarne]

This isnt Europe, ok but can you not tell the similarities?

Ferelden are Brits, Orlesians are French, Antivan are Spanish

Not exactly rocket surgery!

So I guess in Ferelden women can be warriors, donning 2 handed swords and full plate and black people are only made when 2 white adults have a kid. High Fantasy indeed!

Thats convenient but still has a twinge of racism - if a 120lb woman can wear 200lbs of metal armor, lead a party of men and say what she wants, when she wants, where she wants - dont see why (for all of 30 mins of my Origin) I cant have a black family. They all die at the end so you all get what you want anyway --

This is just bad QA on BioWares part. They should have either not made an option for black humans or changed around his family members.

[TheRealBrave]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

ZOMG I'M GONNA REPORT YOU!!! 

[Xeiru]

Jiggasaurus wrote...

They dont let you 'roll a black guy' they give you the choice of multiple character creations through the creation tool, as other games have shown like in my original comment of fallout 3 they've created a tool that allows the ethnicity to change with the decision of the players original creation, great, I'm not expecting every single game to do this now they've done it but in a game thats going to have so much prevelent download content as planned and patchs/addons I dont believe the orignal posts is looking beyond the realms of possibility to expect somethign to be done about his request. It's not like hes asking the Bioware staff to walk on water here, just eventually get around to making an addon that will allow him to create an 'Origin' story for his ethnicity of choice, what exacltly is so wrong with that request?

Because thats not what hes asking for? Hes not asking for another origin story which would make sense for a black person to roll (which I would love since it would mean the inclusion of another worldspace (the Qunari homeland). Hes asking for them to alter pre-existing content to suit his view of how the lore should reflect his chosen skin tone. Which I think is absurd.

If I roll an elf, in the dwarf origin story, I don't get to complain my parents are dwarves. I'd have to suck it up and deal with it or not roll something absurd. Why should he get different treatment because he chose to roll a black guy into a white noble family?

[CitizenThom]

Family skin tones should match, next time around... I agree with the OP's main point in that regard. I don't think the OP was really talking about identity group politics et al, so much as, it would be nice that a noble's parents would probably look like their child. Dwarf commoner? probably not, but human noble, I think the parents would probably be of similar appearance, at least one of them anyways. I'm pretty anti-political correctness, and I still think it would be a nice finishing touch to have the parents resemble the child to some degree.

[pewbz]

I think the only thing out of place with this "issue" is that you can make your Cousland black, which was obviously just implemented because there would be at least one guy complaining about the lacking feature if they didn't.



Fiction doesn't have to be equal opportunity. This particular origin story revolves around white folks. Deal.

[spokenwordd]

Xeiru wrote...

spokenwordd wrote...


Any arguements that "yeah but black humans are not native to Fereldan" are trumped by the fact that this is fiction and the writers can craft any lore they want...

Unless that lore doesn't include a family of black nobles. Because that would be racist and require a 5+ page long thread of whining.

The finer points of this whole chain can be summed up in this....  If you roll a toon then your parents should match... period.  I don't care if that means you roll a white, black, asian etc etc etc toon then the parents should damn well match.