Note: I really have no clue why I wrote this. It's more of a crystallization of the feelings I get while playing my Paragon!Shep through both ME 1 & 2. It's intended to be read like a speech, but god knows when I'd get in front of a podium to give it, much less who would hear it.
One thing I'd like to make clear is the fact that I have absolutely nothing against Renegades. One of the people I respect and admire the most in reality would definitely fall under the Renegade category. You get the job done, and I respect that. If it weren't for you, there'd be a lot more unsavory folk in the galaxy.
Now, you can call me whatever you like. Call me naive. Call me childish. Call me simple, egotistical, an idealist, easily fooled. The fact that Balak, Vido, and Elcora are still around irk me to no end. But at the end of the day, when we're on the way home, after the last mining node has been marked and the last thermal clip has been ejected, I can rest my head knowing that I have made a difference.
By my actions, by my sacrifice, by me going and doing what others could not, I have improved the galaxy. Not just in the sense that we're all Reaper chow, either. I have saved innocents, stopped aggressors, protected the downtrodden, spoken for those who were forgotten, and aided those who seemed beyond help. Because of my actions, literally millions of lives are better than they were before I entered them.
With every passing moment, a life somewhere on some world ends. And yet the universe continues on with no care for us. That tells me that our only responsibility is to each other; no one will care for us other than ourselves. I have indeed taken lives, but never in aggression: merely in self-defense. If you are willing to put the gun down, I am willing to help you however I can, no matter the cost.
Renegades, ask yourself: what have you given to this galaxy besides bullet wounds, charred bodies and explosions? What have you contributed? What have you improved? I know that when I eventually die, I will have left this world a better place than when I left it. You don't even need to take my word for it; ask the inhabitants of Zhu's Hope. Ask the Council. Ask the Rachni Queen. Ask Helena Blake. Ask Lieutenant Zabaleta. Ask Kate Bowman, Corpral Toombs, Dr. Wayne, Chairman Burns, Gianna Parasini, Lia'vael nar Ulnay, John Witson, the Admiralty Board, Aresh, Kenn, Diana, Kal'Reegar, Urdnot Darg, Maleon, David Archer, or anyone who's served under my command. Hell, even though he was a little deluded when I caught up with him again, Conrad Verner is now running a charity foundation.
So, please, when that winged icon appears on the left-hand side of your HUD, consider the power you hold in your hands. Think of what you could do to make this place we live in better. Think of all those whose existences you could improve. And please, do the right thing. Please, take the Paragon option.
Why I am a Paragon
Débuté par
Russano Greenstripe
, avril 08 2011 04:31
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#2
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 05:52
Turneyvore
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There are only two kinds of people in all the galaxy. The dead and the living. I am among the living and have sent many to be with the dead. I sleep well at night.
I didn't set out to make this galaxy a brighter place where the voiceless are spoken for, where the helpless are helped or where the hopeless may find salvation. Neither did I set out to keep the powerful in power, to load the rifles of tyrants or arm the weapons of terrorists. I set out to make sure this galaxy stands. To make sure that life continues.
I don't serve myself, I don't serve any one person but I serve all people. I am an not an agent of justice by any means. The guiltless must die if they are a threat and I am prepared, every second, to strike them down. I am not a monster. I kill only when I need to. However, we may differ on the terms of "need". I am, more than anything else, a realist. If I need something I take it. I take it and feel justified in the taking because I am fighting for the survival of all life. One life means nothing against the vast seas of flesh and I know, no matter how many lives I ruin or end, that I can never make be a significant threat to life.
I'm not an idealist. I don't imagine a future where the people will thank me for what I have done to them. I do not imagine a future where I will be hailed as a hero. I know how i will be seen and I embrace that. It is far better to be feared than loved.
I am a Renegade and I am proud.
I didn't set out to make this galaxy a brighter place where the voiceless are spoken for, where the helpless are helped or where the hopeless may find salvation. Neither did I set out to keep the powerful in power, to load the rifles of tyrants or arm the weapons of terrorists. I set out to make sure this galaxy stands. To make sure that life continues.
I don't serve myself, I don't serve any one person but I serve all people. I am an not an agent of justice by any means. The guiltless must die if they are a threat and I am prepared, every second, to strike them down. I am not a monster. I kill only when I need to. However, we may differ on the terms of "need". I am, more than anything else, a realist. If I need something I take it. I take it and feel justified in the taking because I am fighting for the survival of all life. One life means nothing against the vast seas of flesh and I know, no matter how many lives I ruin or end, that I can never make be a significant threat to life.
I'm not an idealist. I don't imagine a future where the people will thank me for what I have done to them. I do not imagine a future where I will be hailed as a hero. I know how i will be seen and I embrace that. It is far better to be feared than loved.
I am a Renegade and I am proud.
#3
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 06:10
Kagura_Hakubi
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There are those in the galaxy who hold that the Paragon path is the high road. The goodly road. The road to peace and prosperity. That in deviating from this road you will become worse than the evil you fight.
There are those in the galaxy who will tell you that Renegades get things done. That only a Renegade mindset will lead to ultimate victory. That only through sacrifice may we gain success.
I am not one of those people. There is a time for peace, forgiveness, and trust. There is also a time for death and sacrifice. Personal, foreign, living or material.
The Rachni were spared, not because of some high ideal of trust, of second chances, but because they may be necessary. Where there is life, there is hope. Where there is hope, there is power. Where there is power, there is victory. An innocent does not deserve to die.
An innocent cannot always be afforded to live.
The strength of one - whether it is the closed fist of a renagade realist, or the open palm of a paragon idealist - is nothing compared to the strength of many. Rachni. Krogan. Hero. Murderer. Lawman. Criminal. Whether the weapon of the day is a loaded pistol or a silver tongue, all of these can be directed towards a common goal.
If I must become a monster to fight monsters, then I shall do so. If I can fight evil with good, I will do so. No sacrifice is too great for a healthy future. No sacrifice may be made unconsidered. Everything has worth. Everything has purpose. Even in death, duty does not end, and a dead warlord can be as powerful an icon as an army of fractured thugs.
I am Paragade, and we will win.
There are those in the galaxy who will tell you that Renegades get things done. That only a Renegade mindset will lead to ultimate victory. That only through sacrifice may we gain success.
I am not one of those people. There is a time for peace, forgiveness, and trust. There is also a time for death and sacrifice. Personal, foreign, living or material.
The Rachni were spared, not because of some high ideal of trust, of second chances, but because they may be necessary. Where there is life, there is hope. Where there is hope, there is power. Where there is power, there is victory. An innocent does not deserve to die.
An innocent cannot always be afforded to live.
The strength of one - whether it is the closed fist of a renagade realist, or the open palm of a paragon idealist - is nothing compared to the strength of many. Rachni. Krogan. Hero. Murderer. Lawman. Criminal. Whether the weapon of the day is a loaded pistol or a silver tongue, all of these can be directed towards a common goal.
If I must become a monster to fight monsters, then I shall do so. If I can fight evil with good, I will do so. No sacrifice is too great for a healthy future. No sacrifice may be made unconsidered. Everything has worth. Everything has purpose. Even in death, duty does not end, and a dead warlord can be as powerful an icon as an army of fractured thugs.
I am Paragade, and we will win.
#4
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 06:11
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You
get the job done, and I respect that. If it weren't for you, there'd be a
lot more unsavory folk in the galaxy.
You should remember this statement later on in your post as it answers your questions. Now then, since you are taking the time to ask every Renegade out there to respond, I will attack you in kind.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
I can rest my head knowing
that I have made a difference.
I would indeed call you egotistical and this is why. This statement, while understandable, implies that ultimately you are a Paragon for self gratification. That's isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it tells me that your priorities are in the wrong place. You should first and foremost be concerned with protecting the galaxy, with protecting your people. That means doing things that at time might make you feel very crappy. That is sacrifice. Playing the role of the hero and never making any hard choices is hardly a burden. It inflates your ego and makes you feel good when everyone tells you you're a hero.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
Renegades, ask yourself: what have you given
to this galaxy besides bullet wounds, charred bodies and explosions?
What have you contributed? What have you improved?
I toppled a tyrannical and callous regime that stomped all over the rights and needs of my people. I ended the menace of Balak, the rachni, the madness of Aresh. I helped to bring about the possibility of a bloodless victory over the geth by continuing Project Overlord. By saving the Collector base I ensured humanity would have the tools it needed to survive the Reaper onslaught and protect itself against all other enemies.
I destroyed an entire star system to save the galaxy and did my best to avoid war.
Remember this: it was a Renegade mindset that ever gave this galaxy the feeble hope it has for a future free of the Reaper cycle. The programming in Vigil told it to sacrifice non-essential personnel to ensure the survival of the greater whole. That eventually allowed the few survivors to complete the Conduit project and send their warning to the rest of the galaxy. A warning that Shepard eventually picked up.
Make no mistake, destroying the Alpha Relay was a Renegade choice as well. Try and rationalize it all you want, but it takes a Renegade to do that. A true Paragon there would have refused so costly a sacrifice. They'd have rambled on about how we "can't allow ourselves to be as a heartless as the Reapers".
Even if your Paragon saves the galaxy it will be because they were willing to be Renegade when they had to and because 50,000 years ago it was a Renegade in charge of programming the V.I. on Ilos.
#5
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 06:24
Russano Greenstripe
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Is that really life, though? That honest, hard-working beings quiver in fear at terrorists and mercs? That powerful corporations gladly consign living people away to pain and suffering to fatten their bottom line? That shadowy organizations invade privacy, kill people, steal, lie, and extort just to gain power? Is that the place you want to live in?
You say you serve all people, but your actions say otherwise. You didn't serve people when you left David Archer hooked up to that machine. You didn't serve people when you let the most powerful ship on the Citadel fleet burn in the skies. You didn't serve people when you sent Niftu Cal to his demise. All those lives were on your hands, and I definitely think you failed to serve them.
You may feel that the ends justify the means. That because of your good intentions, your horrible actions don't count. That outlook is what leads to experimenting on young, scared girls, to trying to weaponize alien species, to electrocuting people when they turn their back on you, to letting people burn and die without aid while you make your way to your target.
I think I realized the biggest difference between you and I; to you, the other beings in the universe are either obstacles or assets. You place these people into categories like "threat" or "enemy" so that it's easier for you to pull the trigger. Whilst I see the people behind the faceplates and helmets. The father who struggles to put bread on the table. The young woman who carries a gun because she doesn't know of any other way to support herself. The destitute who has no other option but to do what the strong say they have to. You may say that you care about all life, but I care about people: each and every life that I pass is worth protecting, worth fighting for, and worth understanding and helping. While to you, they merely stand between you and your ultimate goals.
(Edit: Christ, there weren't three responses when I wrote that. I'll answer to the others in kind; this one is mostly aimed at Turney.)
You say you serve all people, but your actions say otherwise. You didn't serve people when you left David Archer hooked up to that machine. You didn't serve people when you let the most powerful ship on the Citadel fleet burn in the skies. You didn't serve people when you sent Niftu Cal to his demise. All those lives were on your hands, and I definitely think you failed to serve them.
You may feel that the ends justify the means. That because of your good intentions, your horrible actions don't count. That outlook is what leads to experimenting on young, scared girls, to trying to weaponize alien species, to electrocuting people when they turn their back on you, to letting people burn and die without aid while you make your way to your target.
I think I realized the biggest difference between you and I; to you, the other beings in the universe are either obstacles or assets. You place these people into categories like "threat" or "enemy" so that it's easier for you to pull the trigger. Whilst I see the people behind the faceplates and helmets. The father who struggles to put bread on the table. The young woman who carries a gun because she doesn't know of any other way to support herself. The destitute who has no other option but to do what the strong say they have to. You may say that you care about all life, but I care about people: each and every life that I pass is worth protecting, worth fighting for, and worth understanding and helping. While to you, they merely stand between you and your ultimate goals.
(Edit: Christ, there weren't three responses when I wrote that. I'll answer to the others in kind; this one is mostly aimed at Turney.)
Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 08 avril 2011 - 06:27 .
#6
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 06:39
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Russano Greenstripe wrote...
Is that really life, though? That honest, hard-working beings quiver in fear at terrorists and mercs?
Terrorists and mercs that I killed, and whom you set free.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
Is that the place you want to live in?
It's the place I live in regardless and nothing will ever change that. You are better off learning to adapt to the universe instead of fuitily trying to change its very foundation. It isn't the Alliance or the Council, it's life itself. The crucible of survival is the cause of all our ills and that can't ever be altered.
Russano Greenstipre wrote...
You didn't serve people when you left David Archer hooked up to that machine.
I was serving a million lost sons and daughters and their grieving mothers.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you let the most powerful ship on the Citadel fleet burn in the skies.
I was serving the trillions of people who inhabit the galaxy. I made their survival my utmost priority, placing them ahead of the cushy politicians attempting to abandon their Capital. To do anything less would have been reckless and when the stakes are that high to be reckless is to be a criminal.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you sent Niftu Cal to his demise.
A drug peddling criminal. I saved the tax payers the expense of fruitless trial.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You may feel that the ends justify the means. That because of your good intentions, your horrible actions don't count. That outlook is what leads to experimenting on young, scared girls, to trying to weaponize alien species, to electrocuting people when they turn their back on you, to letting people burn and die without aid while you make your way to your target.
This is the sacrifice I speak of.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
I think I realized the biggest difference between you and I; to you, the other beings in the universe are either obstacles or assets.
They are also my neighbors, my friends, my loved ones, my kin. I consider a Paragon's pandering to the Council and undermining of humanity to be so heinous because to me it is a betrayal of the people who put their trust in them. The people back home, the people you swore to protect when you became an officer in the Systems Alliance. Your apointment as Spectre was meant as a boon for humanity, not an excuse for you to run off and preach to humanity about how great the Council was or how wrong we were to strive to maintain our sovereignity. You lost sight of the goal and got swept up in your shiny new title, thinking it freed you from your prior obligations.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You place these people into categories like "threat" or "enemy" so that it's easier for you to pull the trigger.
You assume too much, but that said, you are partly right. It is necessary to demonize and dehumanize the enemy so we can get the job done. We must find a way to cope with the demands of the task at hand. However you might be surprised to know I see it from their perspective too. I don't hate batarians or turians. On the contrary I understand them and I sympathize with them, but I will not put their needs above the needs of my own kin.
Ask yourself, why did you slaughter two dozen mercs in a factory on the Citadel just so Garrus could have revenge on one man? Why then did you let that man go? Why did you kill all those people? You said you never attacked anyone in aggression, but if you indulged Garrus in his quest for revenge up to the point of confronting Sidonis then you did just that. When those mercs attacked you could have retreated (well you can't actually, but in-universe nothing is stopped Shepard from doing that) or call for C-Sec. Instead you ran in guns blazing and assaulted their compound.
Russano Greenstripe wrote...
(Edit: Christ, there weren't three responses when I wrote that. I'll answer to the others in kind; this one is mostly aimed at Turney.)
Then I hope you won't mind that I responded to you anyway.
Modifié par Saphra Deden, 08 avril 2011 - 06:42 .
#7
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:08
Golden Owl
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Saphra Deden wrote:
"Make no mistake, destroying the Alpha Relay was a Renegade choice as well. Try and rationalize it all you want, but it takes a Renegade to do that. A true Paragon there would have refused so costly a sacrifice. They'd have rambled on about how we "can't allow ourselves to be as a heartless as the Reapers".
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the button if no other option is available...The difference between the Renegade and the Paragon, is the Paragon will feel it, he will hurt deeply about the choice he had to make, it will scar him, but he will press the button just the same when so much is at stake. The Paragon is just as much a realist as the Renegade, he just takes a lot more than his chosen select few into account than the Renegade.
"Make no mistake, destroying the Alpha Relay was a Renegade choice as well. Try and rationalize it all you want, but it takes a Renegade to do that. A true Paragon there would have refused so costly a sacrifice. They'd have rambled on about how we "can't allow ourselves to be as a heartless as the Reapers".
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the button if no other option is available...The difference between the Renegade and the Paragon, is the Paragon will feel it, he will hurt deeply about the choice he had to make, it will scar him, but he will press the button just the same when so much is at stake. The Paragon is just as much a realist as the Renegade, he just takes a lot more than his chosen select few into account than the Renegade.
#8
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:16
MadCat221
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Paragons do what's necessary. Renegades do what's convenient.
#9
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:18
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
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Golden Owl wrote...
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the button if no other option is available...
Spare me, kid. The stakes were no different at the Battle of the Citadel but you still risked everything to keep the Council alive.
Paragon Shepard can't cut. S/he chokes on all the big decisions. The writers realized this and for the sake of the story they didn't let you roleplay in that DLC.
I actually feel bad for you since I think you should have been allowed to make the choice.
#10
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:21
Golden Owl
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MadCat221 wrote...
Paragons do what's necessary. Renegades do what's convenient.
Applauding MadCat...
....nicely succinct and presise.
#11
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:23
MadCat221
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the button if no other option is available...
Spare me, kid. The stakes were no different at the Battle of the Citadel but you still risked everything to keep the Council alive.
Paragon Shepard can't cut. S/he chokes on all the big decisions. The writers realized this and for the sake of the story they didn't let you roleplay in that DLC.
I actually feel bad for you since I think you should have been allowed to make the choice.
Condescend much?
#12
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:27
Golden Owl
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the button if no other option is available...
Spare me, kid. The stakes were no different at the Battle of the Citadel but you still risked everything to keep the Council alive.
Paragon Shepard can't cut. S/he chokes on all the big decisions. The writers realized this and for the sake of the story they didn't let you roleplay in that DLC.
I actually feel bad for you since I think you should have been allowed to make the choice.
Kid?...lol...I don't think so.
Citadel was different story...I'm assuming you never conversed with that idiot reporter on the Citadel as a paragon in ME2....obviously not.
As for Arrival, the stakes were made crystal clear... Full Reaper invasion then and there or not...choice given or not, it didn't give a lot of room to move.
#13
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 07:28
Russano Greenstripe
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[quote]Kagura_Hakubi wrote...
There are those in the galaxy who hold that the Paragon path is the high road. The goodly road. The road to peace and prosperity. That in deviating from this road you will become worse than the evil you fight.
There are those in the galaxy who will tell you that Renegades get things done. That only a Renegade mindset will lead to ultimate victory. That only through sacrifice may we gain success.
I am not one of those people. There is a time for peace, forgiveness, and trust. There is also a time for death and sacrifice. Personal, foreign, living or material.
[...] An innocent cannot always be afforded to live.
[/quote]
I'm thankful for your understanding, even if we don't agree on every line of the bullet-pointed list. My question to you is this: Which is better to sacrifice, a part of yourself, or the life of another? I've often found that I can choose for one or the other, and I always choose to give up a part of me. How could I ask someone to do something that I could not manage to do a fracton of?
[quote]Kagura_Hakubi wrote...
The strength
of one - whether it is the closed fist of a renagade realist, or the
open palm of a paragon idealist - is nothing compared to the strength of
many. Rachni. Krogan. Hero. Murderer. Lawman. Criminal. Whether the
weapon of the day is a loaded pistol or a silver tongue, all of these
can be directed towards a common goal.
[/quote]
Here I am in utter agreeance with you. I've had scientists, assassins, lawmen, criminals, psychopaths and idealists alike at my side. And I suppose in this regard I can be called a Renegade myself; I'm willing to forgive past transgressions in trade for assistance with future goals. I'm not as heartless as the code of Asari Justicars; I recognize grey.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I would indeed call you egotistical and this is why. This statement,
while understandable, implies that ultimately you are a Paragon for
self gratification.
[/quote]
Then I have failed to communicate my meaning, or you're twisting my words away from their intentions. I'm not a Paragon because I want to be hailed as a savior; often, it happens that I am hailed because I am a Paragon. My quality of sleep isn't the reason I do the things I do.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
That means doing things that at time might make you feel very crappy. That is sacrifice.
[/quote]
You think that I don't have regrets? That I celebrate every action I've had to take? The loss of the Jakarta, the Madrid, the Cairo, the Seoul, the Shenyang, the Emden, the Cape Town, and the Warsaw are tragic. I wanted to kill to Balak, Vido Santiago, and Elnora, and I continue to hunt them to this day. Don't think for a second that you're the only one who has had to lose things.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I toppled a tyrannical and callous regime that stomped all over the
rights and needs of my people. I ended the menace of Balak, the rachni,
the madness of Aresh. I helped to bring about the possibility of a
bloodless victory over the geth by continuing Project Overlord.
By saving the Collector base I ensured humanity would have the tools it
needed to survive the Reaper onslaught and protect itself against all
other enemies. [/quote]
Just because some of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy didn't bend to your every whim doesn't make them callous or tyrannical. Balak was no longer a threat with his plan foiled, his second-in-command turned against him, and his guards neutralized. The Rachni are no longer a threat either; they share your and my goal in stopping those who soured the songs of their mothers. There's no way that Aresh could have possibly continued the mad experiments that took place on Praggia; if he had, I would have indeed stopped him. And I did the same by using the heretic's virus against them, and made sure that a scared, helpless, defenseless person might have a chance at a healthy life. What you did was make a man who answers to no one and sanctions horrors probably the most powerful man in the galaxy. By not destroying that base, you spat on the graves of every man, woman, and child you swore to protect in the fight against the Collectors.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Remember this: it was a Renegade mindset that ever gave this galaxy the
feeble hope it has for a future free of the Reaper cycle. The
programming in Vigil told it to sacrifice non-essential personnel to
ensure the survival of the greater whole. That eventually allowed the
few survivors to complete the Conduit project and send their warning to
the rest of the galaxy. A warning that Shepard eventually picked up.
[/quote]
Here I'm going to have to disagree with you; it wasn't Vigil's decision to do so. He carried out what his programming told him to do. His programmers, the Protheans, chose to take it upon themselves to fight for the future, to fight so that you and I could stop Sovereign. Taking the painful road that will probably hurt you in the long run so that others may have a chance at a better life is a Paragon action.
(Also, I don't have Arrival, so I can't talk about it.)
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Terrorists and mercs that I killed, and whom you set free.
[/quote]
I would glaldy set all the terrorists and mercs in the universe free if it meant that an accused innocent would live.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
[quote]Russano Greenstipre wrote...
You didn't serve people when you left David Archer hooked up to that machine.[/quote]
I was serving a million lost sons and daughters and their grieving mothers.
[quote]Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you let the most powerful ship on the Citadel fleet burn in the skies.[/quote]
I
was serving the trillions of people who inhabit the galaxy. I made
their survival my utmost priority, placing them ahead of the cushy
politicians attempting to abandon their Capital. To do anything less
would have been reckless and when the stakes are that high to be
reckless is to be a criminal.
[quote]Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you sent Niftu Cal to his demise.[/quote]
A drug peddling criminal. I saved the tax payers the expense of fruitless trial.
[/quote]
I phrased my statements poorly, and for that, I apologize; what I meant to say was that you didn't serve them, despite them being people. And as to David Archer, see above; I did the exact same and freed a tortured soul as well.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
This is the sacrifice I speak of.
[/quote]
That's not sacrifice. That's murder and torture.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I consider a Paragon's pandering to the Council and undermining of
humanity to be so heinous because to me it is a betrayal of the people
who put their trust in them. The people back home, the people you swore
to protect when you became an officer in the Systems Alliance. Your
apointment as Spectre was meant as a boon for humanity, not an excuse
for you to run off and preach to humanity about how great the Council
was or how wrong we were to strive to maintain our sovereignity. You
lost sight of the goal and got swept up in your shiny new title,
thinking it freed you from your prior obligations.
[/quote]
When did I undermine humanity? In case you haven't noticed, humanity is part of the Council as well. Do you argue against the nations back on Earth that oppose the decisions of your home government, despite them being under the same Alliance banner? And you're putting words in my mouth; I never preached anything. I've stated on multiple occasions that humans need to work as equals with other races, neither as their masters nor as their servants. And I've never thought for a moment that I resigned my commission as an officer of the Systems Alliance; any time that Admiral Hackett came to me for aid, I dropped everything and made him proud. I even forwarded him information about Cerberus activities recovered from the base on Lorek. I have not forgotten what color my blood runs.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
However you might be surprised to know I see it from their perspective
too. I don't hate batarians or turians. On the contrary I understand
them and I sympathize with them, but I will not put their needs above
the needs of my own kin.
[/quote]
Then I'm thankful beyond words for that.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Ask yourself, why did you slaughter two dozen mercs in a factory on
the Citadel just so Garrus could have revenge on one man? Why then did
you let that man go? Why did you kill all those people? You said you
never attacked anyone in aggression, but if you indulged Garrus in his
quest for revenge up to the point of confronting Sidonis then you did
just that. When those mercs attacked you could have retreated (well you
can't actually, but in-universe nothing is stopped Shepard from doing
that) or call for C-Sec. Instead you ran in guns blazing and assaulted
their compound.
[/quote]
I had no quarrel with those mercs; I only wanted to talk to Fade. They shot at me first; I defended myself. If they hadn't opened fire at me, I wouldn't have even thought about returning fire and they could have lived.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote..
Then I hope you won't mind that I responded to you anyway.
[/quote]
Not at all! It gives me more to argue about; In case you haven't noticed, I like to argue. :happy:
[quote] MadCat221 wrote..
Paragons do what's necessary. Renegades do what's convenient.
[/quote]
I disagree with that; that's a gross oversimplification.
[quote] Golden Owl wrote...
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of
recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the
button if no other option is available...[/quote]
Again, I can't talk about this since I don't have Arrival. You all are free to argue about it, though.
Edit: Criminy, that's a wall of text.
There are those in the galaxy who hold that the Paragon path is the high road. The goodly road. The road to peace and prosperity. That in deviating from this road you will become worse than the evil you fight.
There are those in the galaxy who will tell you that Renegades get things done. That only a Renegade mindset will lead to ultimate victory. That only through sacrifice may we gain success.
I am not one of those people. There is a time for peace, forgiveness, and trust. There is also a time for death and sacrifice. Personal, foreign, living or material.
[...] An innocent cannot always be afforded to live.
[/quote]
I'm thankful for your understanding, even if we don't agree on every line of the bullet-pointed list. My question to you is this: Which is better to sacrifice, a part of yourself, or the life of another? I've often found that I can choose for one or the other, and I always choose to give up a part of me. How could I ask someone to do something that I could not manage to do a fracton of?
[quote]Kagura_Hakubi wrote...
The strength
of one - whether it is the closed fist of a renagade realist, or the
open palm of a paragon idealist - is nothing compared to the strength of
many. Rachni. Krogan. Hero. Murderer. Lawman. Criminal. Whether the
weapon of the day is a loaded pistol or a silver tongue, all of these
can be directed towards a common goal.
[/quote]
Here I am in utter agreeance with you. I've had scientists, assassins, lawmen, criminals, psychopaths and idealists alike at my side. And I suppose in this regard I can be called a Renegade myself; I'm willing to forgive past transgressions in trade for assistance with future goals. I'm not as heartless as the code of Asari Justicars; I recognize grey.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I would indeed call you egotistical and this is why. This statement,
while understandable, implies that ultimately you are a Paragon for
self gratification.
[/quote]
Then I have failed to communicate my meaning, or you're twisting my words away from their intentions. I'm not a Paragon because I want to be hailed as a savior; often, it happens that I am hailed because I am a Paragon. My quality of sleep isn't the reason I do the things I do.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
That means doing things that at time might make you feel very crappy. That is sacrifice.
[/quote]
You think that I don't have regrets? That I celebrate every action I've had to take? The loss of the Jakarta, the Madrid, the Cairo, the Seoul, the Shenyang, the Emden, the Cape Town, and the Warsaw are tragic. I wanted to kill to Balak, Vido Santiago, and Elnora, and I continue to hunt them to this day. Don't think for a second that you're the only one who has had to lose things.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I toppled a tyrannical and callous regime that stomped all over the
rights and needs of my people. I ended the menace of Balak, the rachni,
the madness of Aresh. I helped to bring about the possibility of a
bloodless victory over the geth by continuing Project Overlord.
By saving the Collector base I ensured humanity would have the tools it
needed to survive the Reaper onslaught and protect itself against all
other enemies. [/quote]
Just because some of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy didn't bend to your every whim doesn't make them callous or tyrannical. Balak was no longer a threat with his plan foiled, his second-in-command turned against him, and his guards neutralized. The Rachni are no longer a threat either; they share your and my goal in stopping those who soured the songs of their mothers. There's no way that Aresh could have possibly continued the mad experiments that took place on Praggia; if he had, I would have indeed stopped him. And I did the same by using the heretic's virus against them, and made sure that a scared, helpless, defenseless person might have a chance at a healthy life. What you did was make a man who answers to no one and sanctions horrors probably the most powerful man in the galaxy. By not destroying that base, you spat on the graves of every man, woman, and child you swore to protect in the fight against the Collectors.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Remember this: it was a Renegade mindset that ever gave this galaxy the
feeble hope it has for a future free of the Reaper cycle. The
programming in Vigil told it to sacrifice non-essential personnel to
ensure the survival of the greater whole. That eventually allowed the
few survivors to complete the Conduit project and send their warning to
the rest of the galaxy. A warning that Shepard eventually picked up.
[/quote]
Here I'm going to have to disagree with you; it wasn't Vigil's decision to do so. He carried out what his programming told him to do. His programmers, the Protheans, chose to take it upon themselves to fight for the future, to fight so that you and I could stop Sovereign. Taking the painful road that will probably hurt you in the long run so that others may have a chance at a better life is a Paragon action.
(Also, I don't have Arrival, so I can't talk about it.)
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Terrorists and mercs that I killed, and whom you set free.
[/quote]
I would glaldy set all the terrorists and mercs in the universe free if it meant that an accused innocent would live.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
[quote]Russano Greenstipre wrote...
You didn't serve people when you left David Archer hooked up to that machine.[/quote]
I was serving a million lost sons and daughters and their grieving mothers.
[quote]Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you let the most powerful ship on the Citadel fleet burn in the skies.[/quote]
I
was serving the trillions of people who inhabit the galaxy. I made
their survival my utmost priority, placing them ahead of the cushy
politicians attempting to abandon their Capital. To do anything less
would have been reckless and when the stakes are that high to be
reckless is to be a criminal.
[quote]Russano Greenstripe wrote...
You didn't serve people when you sent Niftu Cal to his demise.[/quote]
A drug peddling criminal. I saved the tax payers the expense of fruitless trial.
[/quote]
I phrased my statements poorly, and for that, I apologize; what I meant to say was that you didn't serve them, despite them being people. And as to David Archer, see above; I did the exact same and freed a tortured soul as well.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
This is the sacrifice I speak of.
[/quote]
That's not sacrifice. That's murder and torture.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
I consider a Paragon's pandering to the Council and undermining of
humanity to be so heinous because to me it is a betrayal of the people
who put their trust in them. The people back home, the people you swore
to protect when you became an officer in the Systems Alliance. Your
apointment as Spectre was meant as a boon for humanity, not an excuse
for you to run off and preach to humanity about how great the Council
was or how wrong we were to strive to maintain our sovereignity. You
lost sight of the goal and got swept up in your shiny new title,
thinking it freed you from your prior obligations.
[/quote]
When did I undermine humanity? In case you haven't noticed, humanity is part of the Council as well. Do you argue against the nations back on Earth that oppose the decisions of your home government, despite them being under the same Alliance banner? And you're putting words in my mouth; I never preached anything. I've stated on multiple occasions that humans need to work as equals with other races, neither as their masters nor as their servants. And I've never thought for a moment that I resigned my commission as an officer of the Systems Alliance; any time that Admiral Hackett came to me for aid, I dropped everything and made him proud. I even forwarded him information about Cerberus activities recovered from the base on Lorek. I have not forgotten what color my blood runs.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
However you might be surprised to know I see it from their perspective
too. I don't hate batarians or turians. On the contrary I understand
them and I sympathize with them, but I will not put their needs above
the needs of my own kin.
[/quote]
Then I'm thankful beyond words for that.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote...
Ask yourself, why did you slaughter two dozen mercs in a factory on
the Citadel just so Garrus could have revenge on one man? Why then did
you let that man go? Why did you kill all those people? You said you
never attacked anyone in aggression, but if you indulged Garrus in his
quest for revenge up to the point of confronting Sidonis then you did
just that. When those mercs attacked you could have retreated (well you
can't actually, but in-universe nothing is stopped Shepard from doing
that) or call for C-Sec. Instead you ran in guns blazing and assaulted
their compound.
[/quote]
I had no quarrel with those mercs; I only wanted to talk to Fade. They shot at me first; I defended myself. If they hadn't opened fire at me, I wouldn't have even thought about returning fire and they could have lived.
[quote] Saphra Deden wrote..
Then I hope you won't mind that I responded to you anyway.
[/quote]
Not at all! It gives me more to argue about; In case you haven't noticed, I like to argue. :happy:
[quote] MadCat221 wrote..
Paragons do what's necessary. Renegades do what's convenient.
[/quote]
I disagree with that; that's a gross oversimplification.
[quote] Golden Owl wrote...
I say Bull****....A paragon is also more than capable of
recognizing a no-win situation when faced with one and will press the
button if no other option is available...[/quote]
Again, I can't talk about this since I don't have Arrival. You all are free to argue about it, though.
Edit: Criminy, that's a wall of text.
Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 08 avril 2011 - 07:29 .
#14
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 08:42
Kagura_Hakubi
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In condemning David Archer to the machine, you have either condemned a man to suffering, or you have condemned a species to slavery.
However, the choice was never "Do we leave Archer hooked up to the experiment?". The choice was thus: "Do we trust Doctor Archer with the welfare of his brother?"
The experiment was over. It had been successful. David Archer took control of the Geth colony on the planet. Evaluate, conclude, and publish. In sending David Acher to Grissom, you separate him from his fool of a sibling and give him the chance for as normal a life as a savant can hope for. Left with his brother, you leave him with the dubious benefit of blood family.
What amuses me is that the Paragon refers to the parts of my essay that he agrees with, and challenges only the nature of sacrifice I would make. He does not question that I would take violent or sadistic actions if I saw a superior outcome from them.
The answer to his question is ultimately the difference between Paragade and Renegon. A Paragade such as myself will sacrifice of the self, but will not shy away from sacrificing others. A Renegon will sacrifice others, but not hesitate to give of themselves.
What one must beware is the ease with which one can say... "I have sacrificed so much already, surely it is someone else's turn to be sacrificed?" for that is nothing but conceit. The future is not a god of carnage, to care only that blood flows. The future is a schemer, and whose blood flows when is the key to everything.
However, the choice was never "Do we leave Archer hooked up to the experiment?". The choice was thus: "Do we trust Doctor Archer with the welfare of his brother?"
The experiment was over. It had been successful. David Archer took control of the Geth colony on the planet. Evaluate, conclude, and publish. In sending David Acher to Grissom, you separate him from his fool of a sibling and give him the chance for as normal a life as a savant can hope for. Left with his brother, you leave him with the dubious benefit of blood family.
What amuses me is that the Paragon refers to the parts of my essay that he agrees with, and challenges only the nature of sacrifice I would make. He does not question that I would take violent or sadistic actions if I saw a superior outcome from them.
The answer to his question is ultimately the difference between Paragade and Renegon. A Paragade such as myself will sacrifice of the self, but will not shy away from sacrificing others. A Renegon will sacrifice others, but not hesitate to give of themselves.
What one must beware is the ease with which one can say... "I have sacrificed so much already, surely it is someone else's turn to be sacrificed?" for that is nothing but conceit. The future is not a god of carnage, to care only that blood flows. The future is a schemer, and whose blood flows when is the key to everything.
#15
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 08:52
Russano Greenstripe
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Kagura_Hakubi wrote...
The answer to his question is ultimately the difference between Paragade and Renegon. A Paragade such as myself will sacrifice of the self, but will not shy away from sacrificing others. A Renegon will sacrifice others, but not hesitate to give of themselves.
What, ultimately, is the difference between Paragade and Renegon? They seem like artifical constructs to me, neither one really describing "Willing to take both Paragon and Renegade actions."
This is a legitimate question on my part, not a rhetorical one.
Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 08 avril 2011 - 08:52 .
#16
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 09:14
Golden Owl
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I have been thinking about the situation with the Citadel....Here on the forums, we often see only one reason for each choice...save the Council or not save the Council...but theres more to it. In regards to the singular choice, I save the Council for reason of Galactic cohesion...no matter how useless a politician people will still rally and unite around them, is just common behavior.
There are more issues to consider also though....there is a Dreadnought and a Turian fleet involved:
1/ Dreadnought is a powerful war ship.
2/ Turians run a good war fleet.
3/ Humans show that they will fight side by side with other species in times of dire circumstance, much better chance that other species will return the favor....Humans also show themselves to be a powerful ally.
4/Okay, as a Paragon, I also take into account the numbers of lives at stake on board the Dreadnought and in the Turian Fleet...but even as a Paragon and also a realist, it is a matter of balancing the pro's and con's, whether to wait or defend the Dreadnought. The above points answer as to why I personally chose to send the fleet in.
There are more issues to consider also though....there is a Dreadnought and a Turian fleet involved:
1/ Dreadnought is a powerful war ship.
2/ Turians run a good war fleet.
3/ Humans show that they will fight side by side with other species in times of dire circumstance, much better chance that other species will return the favor....Humans also show themselves to be a powerful ally.
4/Okay, as a Paragon, I also take into account the numbers of lives at stake on board the Dreadnought and in the Turian Fleet...but even as a Paragon and also a realist, it is a matter of balancing the pro's and con's, whether to wait or defend the Dreadnought. The above points answer as to why I personally chose to send the fleet in.
#17
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 09:36
Russano Greenstripe
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I'm with you on this one, Golden. Saving the Destiny Ascension not only saved the Citadel Council, it did preserve probably the most powerful non-Reaper ship in the galaxy. Why in blazes it couldn't do more damage to Sovereign is something I'll never figure out.
#18
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 09:39
Golden Owl
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Russano Greenstripe wrote...
I'm with you on this one, Golden. Saving the Destiny Ascension not only saved the Citadel Council, it did preserve probably the most powerful non-Reaper ship in the galaxy. Why in blazes it couldn't do more damage to Sovereign is something I'll never figure out.
I'm figuring overwhelmed by the sheer number of Geth ships with Sovereign...though doesn't bode well for how we will do against a ton of Reapers when they come.
#19
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 09:54
Goodwood
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There is also the tactics involved. Any military officer worth their rank insignia will tell you that if you are in a pitched battle and it looks like you're losing, and you suddenly get a glut of reinforcements, you send those ships into the fray in a New York minute, and in the place where they will be able to do the most good. In this case, the place is the fleeing Destiny Ascension, since not only are you saving the flagship of the Citadel Council and the Council itself, but the resulting action blows a hole in the geth lines and allows the rest of the fleet to engage Sovereign that much more quickly when the ward arms are opened.
Remember, Shepard is a soldier as well as a Spectre -- proper, proven military tactics and axioms should be on everyone's mind when it comes to monumental choices like that. Whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or something in between, at least consider that sometimes the book on war (read: The Art of War by Sun Tzu) can offer insight when you are unsure of your personal judgment.
Which is not to say, of course, that it is the end-all be-all of military matters.
Remember, Shepard is a soldier as well as a Spectre -- proper, proven military tactics and axioms should be on everyone's mind when it comes to monumental choices like that. Whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or something in between, at least consider that sometimes the book on war (read: The Art of War by Sun Tzu) can offer insight when you are unsure of your personal judgment.
Which is not to say, of course, that it is the end-all be-all of military matters.
#20
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 10:11
Golden Owl
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Kagura_Hakubi wrote...
In condemning David Archer to the machine, you have either condemned a man to suffering, or you have condemned a species to slavery.
However, the choice was never "Do we leave Archer hooked up to the experiment?". The choice was thus: "Do we trust Doctor Archer with the welfare of his brother?"
The experiment was over. It had been successful. David Archer took control of the Geth colony on the planet. Evaluate, conclude, and publish. In sending David Acher to Grissom, you separate him from his fool of a sibling and give him the chance for as normal a life as a savant can hope for. Left with his brother, you leave him with the dubious benefit of blood family.
What amuses me is that the Paragon refers to the parts of my essay that he agrees with, and challenges only the nature of sacrifice I would make. He does not question that I would take violent or sadistic actions if I saw a superior outcome from them.
The answer to his question is ultimately the difference between Paragade and Renegon. A Paragade such as myself will sacrifice of the self, but will not shy away from sacrificing others. A Renegon will sacrifice others, but not hesitate to give of themselves.
What one must beware is the ease with which one can say... "I have sacrificed so much already, surely it is someone else's turn to be sacrificed?" for that is nothing but conceit. The future is not a god of carnage, to care only that blood flows. The future is a schemer, and whose blood flows when is the key to everything.
I have found your posts quite interesting and insightful....Now just out of curiousity, how do you find this plays out in the game, in regards to paragon/renegade choices, does paragon tend out weigh or is it fairly balanced?
#21
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 10:30
Golden Owl
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Goodwood wrote...
There is also the tactics involved. Any military officer worth their rank insignia will tell you that if you are in a pitched battle and it looks like you're losing, and you suddenly get a glut of reinforcements, you send those ships into the fray in a New York minute, and in the place where they will be able to do the most good. In this case, the place is the fleeing Destiny Ascension, since not only are you saving the flagship of the Citadel Council and the Council itself, but the resulting action blows a hole in the geth lines and allows the rest of the fleet to engage Sovereign that much more quickly when the ward arms are opened.
Remember, Shepard is a soldier as well as a Spectre -- proper, proven military tactics and axioms should be on everyone's mind when it comes to monumental choices like that. Whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or something in between, at least consider that sometimes the book on war (read: The Art of War by Sun Tzu) can offer insight when you are unsure of your personal judgment.
Which is not to say, of course, that it is the end-all be-all of military matters.
Interesting...thank you Goodwood, I will have to take a look at that book....I myself am probably as far from a military strategist as you can get...all I have at this point is an interest in Human behaviour and tend to base most choices on that...thank you for the heads up, will take a look.
#22
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 10:46
GuardianAngel470
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It's very short.Golden Owl wrote...
Goodwood wrote...
There is also the tactics involved. Any military officer worth their rank insignia will tell you that if you are in a pitched battle and it looks like you're losing, and you suddenly get a glut of reinforcements, you send those ships into the fray in a New York minute, and in the place where they will be able to do the most good. In this case, the place is the fleeing Destiny Ascension, since not only are you saving the flagship of the Citadel Council and the Council itself, but the resulting action blows a hole in the geth lines and allows the rest of the fleet to engage Sovereign that much more quickly when the ward arms are opened.
Remember, Shepard is a soldier as well as a Spectre -- proper, proven military tactics and axioms should be on everyone's mind when it comes to monumental choices like that. Whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or something in between, at least consider that sometimes the book on war (read: The Art of War by Sun Tzu) can offer insight when you are unsure of your personal judgment.
Which is not to say, of course, that it is the end-all be-all of military matters.
Interesting...thank you Goodwood, I will have to take a look at that book....I myself am probably as far from a military strategist as you can get...all I have at this point is an interest in Human behaviour and tend to base most choices on that...thank you for the heads up, will take a look.
Also, this thread is a terrible idea. It's based on the premise of personal attacks, which is against forum rules. Though the first two reponses were good, things devolved quickly.
#23
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 10:49
GuardianAngel470
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Russano Greenstripe wrote...
I'm with you on this one, Golden. Saving the Destiny Ascension not only saved the Citadel Council, it did preserve probably the most powerful non-Reaper ship in the galaxy. Why in blazes it couldn't do more damage to Sovereign is something I'll never figure out.
Too close range, it couldn't line up with Sovereign. Truth be told, it was really just a figurehead stuck in that space, meant to project power without having the ability to exercise it.
Like a Super Carrier with wooden F-18s on the deck.
#24
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 10:51
Russano Greenstripe
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GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Also, this thread is a terrible idea. It's based on the premise of personal attacks, which is against forum rules. Though the first two reponses were good, things devolved quickly.
I'm fine with being personally attacked. Gives me a chance to defend my statements and argue for what I think. Probably the most fun part about debating, really; it's all in good fun.
Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 08 avril 2011 - 10:51 .
#25
Posté 08 avril 2011 - 11:03
Kagura_Hakubi
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The problem with the balance of paragon and renegade actions in-game is that the Renegade interrupts all tend to be very short-term - cutting off the ranting Krogan, or sniping a single security mech with an AoO, while the Paragon interrupts tend to have longer-lasting effects - saving the kid who wanted to go after Garrus, or telling Helena Blake to quit while she's ahead.
The renegade options mostly just get you to the fight faster, or take out an opponent you'd otherwise have to deal with anyway. They aren't properly representative of a cold-edged, ruthless bastard - they're just representative of an impatient badass.
I didn't save the Destiny Ascension on my first playthrough, and that was about tactics. I needed those reserves to swoop in and smash Sovereign the second it was possible, not be stuck in a furball duelling Geth ships. You see in the cutscene they decelerate strait into the opening arms of the Citadel and punch a hole for the Normandy to finish Sovereign off - they weren't "holding back to let them die".
I'll be honest - when I picked the "there's no time" option, it was because I thought that trying to save the Destiny Ascension would give me a non-standard game over. Why else put the "there's no time, just hit Sovereign" option on the wheel if it was just supposed to be a "good path, evil path" choice?
The renegade options mostly just get you to the fight faster, or take out an opponent you'd otherwise have to deal with anyway. They aren't properly representative of a cold-edged, ruthless bastard - they're just representative of an impatient badass.
I didn't save the Destiny Ascension on my first playthrough, and that was about tactics. I needed those reserves to swoop in and smash Sovereign the second it was possible, not be stuck in a furball duelling Geth ships. You see in the cutscene they decelerate strait into the opening arms of the Citadel and punch a hole for the Normandy to finish Sovereign off - they weren't "holding back to let them die".
I'll be honest - when I picked the "there's no time" option, it was because I thought that trying to save the Destiny Ascension would give me a non-standard game over. Why else put the "there's no time, just hit Sovereign" option on the wheel if it was just supposed to be a "good path, evil path" choice?
