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[Golden Owl]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

There is also the tactics involved. Any military officer worth their rank insignia will tell you that if you are in a pitched battle and it looks like you're losing, and you suddenly get a glut of reinforcements, you send those ships into the fray in a New York minute, and in the place where they will be able to do the most good. In this case, the place is the fleeing Destiny Ascension, since not only are you saving the flagship of the Citadel Council and the Council itself, but the resulting action blows a hole in the geth lines and allows the rest of the fleet to engage Sovereign that much more quickly when the ward arms are opened.

Remember, Shepard is a soldier as well as a Spectre -- proper, proven military tactics and axioms should be on everyone's mind when it comes to monumental choices like that. Whether you're Paragon, Renegade, or something in between, at least consider that sometimes the book on war (read: The Art of War by Sun Tzu) can offer insight when you are unsure of your personal judgment.

Which is not to say, of course, that it is the end-all be-all of military matters.

Interesting...thank you Goodwood, I will have to take a look at that book....I myself am probably as far from a military strategist as you can get...all I have at this point is an interest in Human behaviour and tend to base most choices on that...thank you for the heads up, will take a look.

It's very short.

Also, this thread is a terrible idea. It's based on the premise of personal attacks, which is against forum rules. Though the first two reponses were good, things devolved quickly.

Yes, I have seen the book (a friend has it), had a quick flick, but didn't have time to read it at the time,but I would rather a philosophical perspective....if I remember correctly....that this book contains, than an all out study of modern military strategy. 

Yep, also agree this thread is a thread just begging to be trolled, I had wanted to ask people thoughts on the same matter, but chose not to for that very reason and I am aware I am also guilty of flaming on this thread, trolling a known troller (frustration and anger, I know, is no excuse)...though I think it would be a very interesting discussion, as per the first two responses, if it could remain purely a matter of perspectives shared....would be fascinating in fact.

[Golden Owl]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

I'm with you on this one, Golden. Saving the Destiny Ascension not only saved the Citadel Council, it did preserve probably the most powerful non-Reaper ship in the galaxy. Why in blazes it couldn't do more damage to Sovereign is something I'll never figure out.

Too close range, it couldn't line up with Sovereign. Truth be told, it was really just a figurehead stuck in that space, meant to project power without having the ability to exercise it.

Like a Super Carrier with wooden F-18s on the deck.

Though at the very beginning of ME1 when the Normandy first comes into dock at the Citadel...I think it's Ash that mentions the Destiny Ascensions main guns would tear any Alliance ship apart...something along those lines anyway.

[Russano Greenstripe]

It would definitely be nice to have that choice pay off in ME3, though; My bet is that at some point Shep will have to call in the Cavalry, and either the DS or the non-destructified Alliance Fleet will answer the call.

[Golden Owl]

Kaguraaku_Hbi wrote...

The problem with the balance of paragon and renegade actions in-game is that the Renegade interrupts all tend to be very short-term - cutting off the ranting Krogan, or sniping a single security mech with an AoO, while the Paragon interrupts tend to have longer-lasting effects - saving the kid who wanted to go after Garrus, or telling Helena Blake to quit while she's ahead.

The renegade options mostly just get you to the fight faster, or take out an opponent you'd otherwise have to deal with anyway. They aren't properly representative of a cold-edged, ruthless bastard - they're just representative of an impatient badass.

Now that you mention it....yes, I have noticed that, I play all paragon myself, but have watched a friend play renegade and thinking about, yes that is the outcome. 

Kaguraaku_Hbi wrote...

I didn't save the Destiny Ascension on my first playthrough, and that was about tactics. I needed those reserves to swoop in and smash Sovereign the second it was possible, not be stuck in a furball duelling Geth ships. You see in the cutscene they decelerate strait into the opening arms of the Citadel and punch a hole for the Normandy to finish Sovereign off - they weren't "holding back to let them die".

I'll be honest - when I picked the "there's no time" option, it was because I thought that trying to save the Destiny Ascension would give me a non-standard game over. Why else put the "there's no time, just hit Sovereign" option on the wheel if it was just supposed to be a "good path, evil path" choice?

The first time I played ME1 and ME2 I spent a lot of time with each of the major decisions, weighing up my understanding of pro's and con's, etc.. with my limited knowledge. I was on edge on the first time run with both games :-). I am also quite new to gaming, so didn't really know what to expect.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 08 avril 2011 - 11:27 .

[Golden Owl]

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

It would definitely be nice to have that choice pay off in ME3, though; My bet is that at some point Shep will have to call in the Cavalry, and either the DS or the non-destructified Alliance Fleet will answer the call.

I am really hoping it all pays off...though I will say if any of my pragon decisions end up biting me in the a**, I won't go back and change the game...integrity first and then deal with any consequences.

[naddaya]

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Just because some of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy didn't bend to your every whim doesn't make them callous or tyrannical. Balak was no longer a threat with his plan foiled, his second-in-command turned against him, and his guards neutralized. The Rachni are no longer a threat either; they share your and my goal in stopping those who soured the songs of their mothers. There's no way that Aresh could have possibly continued the mad experiments that took place on Praggia; if he had, I would have indeed stopped him. And I did the same by using the heretic's virus against them, and made sure that a scared, helpless, defenseless person might have a chance at a healthy life. What you did was make a man who answers to no one and sanctions horrors probably the most powerful man in the galaxy. By not destroying that base, you spat on the graves of every man, woman, and child you swore to protect in the fight against the Collectors.

Balak could just shoot into a crowd to kill more people than ever stepped on X57, and he's clearly capable of that. He hates humanity.
The Rachni queen could have lied. She could have died in a few moments, she's an intelligent being, lying to save her life is an understandable reaction. She spawns quickly, and the rachni were easily indoctrinated before.
You brainwashed the geth for making a choice. They weren't forced. Joining Sovereign was a free choice.
Avoiding to electrocute the batarian technician during Archangel's recruitment put both you and Garrus in greater trouble. You know you'll have to face it sooner or later, fully operational or not.
Just wanted to, eh, point those out.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Citadel was different story...I'm
assuming you never conversed with that idiot reporter on the Citadel as a
paragon in ME2....obviously not.

No, it was not a different story. The stakes were exactly the same. Actually, the stakes were even higher! In Arrival you had days and then hours before the Reapers invaded unless you stopped them. At the end of ME1
you had minutes until the relay was opened and the Reaper fleet poured in. Boom. End of civilization, right then and there.

Despite that, you still choose UPPER LEFT BLUE and ignored the dangers. Apparently stopping Sovereign wasn't your priority. Instead you wanted to stage a PR stunt.

So,why didn't you try to do that in Arrival? The last time you gambled with the fate of the galaxy it all worked out for the best so why not this time? I think the only reason you are comfortable with the choice is because deep down you know the Renegade approach is more practical but it makes you feel dirty whenever you get Renegade points. Bioware however this time let you perform a Renegade act without having to earn any Renegade points so you can have your cake and eat it too.

That's how it looks to me.

Well, maybe you should read further posts then, as I again approached the issue further on and extended dialogue on my reasons for saving the DA.

No, deep down, I do not see the renegade options as more practical....I see it as quite the opposite in fact. As for Arrival, as I clearly stated earlier...read first what you choose to respond to....blowing the Mass relay was the only option no matter the alignment, whole galaxy would have gone to hell otherwise... as I VERY clearly stated. Gather facts first Saphra.

[hawat333]

Renegade answer: We saved the world, taking no chances.
Paragon, ask yourself: How many times did you put the galaxy's survival in jeopardy just to act like the good guy in a dumb novel?

But anyways, I wouldn't know. I never play Paragon or Renegade, I rather play personalities, characters with principles instead of characters who always click the bottom left/right or top left/right options.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Well, maybe you should read further posts then, as I again approached the issue further on and extended dialogue on my reasons for saving the DA.

No, deep down, I do not see the renegade options as more practical....I see it as quite the opposite in fact. As for Arrival, as I clearly stated earlier...read first what you choose to respond to....blowing the Mass relay was the only option no matter the alignment, whole galaxy would have gone to hell otherwise... as I VERY clearly stated. Gather facts first Saphra.

I'm not interested in your reasons for saving the DA because I've heard it all before I know none of those reasons are good ones.

You are right of-course, if the Alpha Relay hadn't been destroyed the galaxy would have gone to hell. However do you know what else is true? If Sovereign had opened the Citadel Relay the galaxy would have also gone to hell. However instead of making Sovereign your priority you saved the Council. So why couldn't your priority in Arrival have been the colonists?

Well then Saphra, since you are not prepared to discuss a topic in full, don't speak with me, simple as that....Good bye.

[Sajuukcor76]

Why I'm a Paragon? Muffin button.

[Golden Owl]

hawat333 wrote...

Renegade answer: We saved the world, taking no chances.
Paragon, ask yourself: How many times did you put the galaxy's survival in jeopardy just to act like the good guy in a dumb novel?

But anyways, I wouldn't know. I never play Paragon or Renegade, I rather play personalities, characters with principles instead of characters who always click the bottom left/right or top left/right options.

Good post hawat...I do disagree with your Paragon assessment...but you chosen play method is well pointed out., did you read the second response to the original thread, it is very good, you might like it.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 08 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I have looked into the eyes of the Cosmos, and have seen the Other. And they do not impress.

They are selfish. They are greedy. They hide behind platitudes of virtue , and freely employ the mad, the corrupt, the outright genocidal to their own advantage, and applaud it as 'valiant' and 'necessary' to maintain their perch of the status quo, while accusing all others who would do the same. I know this, because they have gladly and willingly chosen me as their champion.

I have seen the Aliens, and they are Us. And nothing fills me with disgust more.

You who would demand sacrifices of others, and take no effort to support those who have died for you! You who boast of your generosity and benign nature when in fact you are merely the most successful and established of the selfish! You who would sell out allies of a century for an unknown, who would leave friends to die and be massacred for a mistake you then accuse them of! You who would cling to privilege and supremacy on the basis of past glory! You who believe that power is a right to be handed to you, without question, for all time!

You are unworthy.

I do not revere you. I do not even respect you. Power is not a right: it is a reflection of what is, and if you can not support it without us than it was never yours in the first place. I do not hate you, but I will not follow you for Your sake and to maintain Your privilage. For you have crafted and enforced a caste system of race and genetic identity, and it was you who have led us, forced us, to identify by race, by tribe, by family.

I stand by my kind. I stand by my family, my people, my race. I know You understand, because this is the utopia you have envisioned for two thousand years.

We will stand together, and we will persevere or fail, but we will not stop striving. For that is who we are.

I am a Renegade, and I am the product of your System.

[Labrev]

Personally, I consider myself a pragmatist above all else. My paragon bar always fills out, but I do what's necessary, and don't do what isn't.

On one hand, I won't let Archer rape his brother's soul in the name of safety. On the other, a few hostages are a small price to pay to eliminate a terrorist like Balak. It's why I disapprove of Cerberus, but also prefer working for them than the Council.

I look at Executor Pallin and Captain Bailey as representations of the two extremes that I don't like. Pallin will never bend the rules, Bailey is upfront about his very liberal interpretation of things. I find Bailey to be the more deplorable of the two, yet I would much rather have a man like Bailey in charge than Pallin.

I stick by my principles and take everything case-by-case.

[kumquats]

hawat333 wrote...

Renegade answer: We saved the world, taking no chances.
Paragon, ask yourself: How many times did you put the galaxy's survival in jeopardy just to act like the good guy in a dumb novel?

But anyways, I wouldn't know. I never play Paragon or Renegade, I rather play personalities, characters with principles instead of characters who always click the bottom left/right or top left/right options.

Yep, yep. I love my Renegade but she saved the Council in ME1. In my opinion the best ending!
I only hope Balak comes back and talks about all the humans he killed, since BDTS.

[Russano Greenstripe]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, it was not a different story. The stakes were exactly the same. Actually, the stakes were even higher! In Arrival you had days and then hours before the Reapers invaded unless you stopped them. At the end of ME1
you had minutes until the relay was opened and the Reaper fleet poured in. Boom. End of civilization, right then and there.

Despite that, you still choose UPPER LEFT BLUE and ignored the dangers. Apparently stopping Sovereign wasn't your priority. Instead you wanted to stage a PR stunt.

I'm going to be frank here and say that it's really hard for me to argue the ethics of saving the DS. Because, meta-textually, we all know that whatever option we choose, The Fifth Fleet (and Joker) blow Sovereign to bits. The Renegade option in this endeavor is based on swift and ultimate destruction of him, whlie the (in-universe) slower, split-up force of the Fifth fleet can still manage to take him down. I find it really difficult to extricate that decision from the meta-textual knowledge that I possess in order to make the decision.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Geth are a model of product, not a species. I don't care that I'm condemning them to anything because they can't suffer anyway. They have no feelings, no emotions. Though I hate to harm David, my primary concern is to avoid a war. So that means the project needs to continue. The many outweigh the few, those million mothers and fathers mourning their lost sons and daughters in a bloody war.

Interacting with Legion implies that the Geth are starting to experiece emotions, but don't understand them. "No data available," anyone? And again, I state: I removed the exact same threat that you argue against and didn't have to leaave an innocent, confused, mentally-stunted individual hooked up into a nightmarish torture machine.

m_k wrote...
Balak could just shoot into a crowd to kill more people than ever
stepped on X57, and he's clearly capable of that. He hates humanity.
The
Rachni queen could have lied. She could have died in a few moments,
she's an intelligent being, lying to save her life is an understandable
reaction. She spawns quickly, and the rachni were easily indoctrinated
before.
You brainwashed the geth for making a choice. They weren't forced. Joining Sovereign was a free choice.
Avoiding
to electrocute the batarian technician during Archangel's recruitment
put both you and Garrus in greater trouble. You know you'll have to face
it sooner or later, fully operational or not.

I'm still chomping at the bit to put bullets into Balak, trust me. I really hope that I get the opportunity to kill him in ME3. If he did that and I didn't get a chance to take him down, then I am going to be severly pissed off with Bioware for that. And I'm willing to give the Rachni queen the benefit of the doubt; I wasn't there during the Rachni Wars. Their ships avoid others when encountered in space, according to news reports, and they are willing to assist the bereft that get stranded on their planet. If the Rachni queen goes against her word, then Grunt, Wrex and I are going down in those tunnels she's holed up in and filling her full of buckshot.

Rewriting the Geth is a decision that I still wrestle with. On one hand, it's much more preferable than blowing them up. But as characters like Jack and Jacob point out, some would gladly die as themselves as opposed to being altered to someone's whim, and I understand that. At the end of the day, though, I find it difficult to murder in cold blood (again, I don't have Arrival, don't argue that against me), and I had literally no other alternative but to rewrite them. If there had been a third option, there's a good chance I would have gone with it.

And as to Sargeant Cathka, I didn't feel that the ends justified the means in that case. I usually find the Gunship portion of that mission to be a lot easier than the parts before it, because I don't have to protect Garrus and I can just spam Incinerates on the thing. As I said before, I find it really difficult to kill in cold blood.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Make sure to add the names of all the millions of people killed
in war with the geth, the rachni, the Reapers, and the batarians.
Conflicts you could have prevented if you'd been willing to get your
hands dirty. Sometimes peace requires bloodshed. You can't always fight
purely defensively.

What war with the geth and the rachni? As I stated above, I'm very loath to believe that either force is going to go to act antagonistically to the galactic whole; In fact, I'm more concerned about how most people are going to react to trying to integrate them into society, assuming that they choose to do so. As to the conflict with the Reapers, there are going to be hella casualties in that. Fighting a force that freaking powerful is going to have losses, no matter what i do. You can't pin that on me. Unless you're talking about the decision to blow up the Collector base, which is a separate argument.

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they are callous and tyrannical because they are perfectly
content to sit idly by while entire sentient species are wiped out by
genocidal machines. They are callous and tyrannical because they are
perfectly willing to sit idly by while their allies are assaulted by
mysterious and impervious aliens. They are callous and tyrannical
because they created an order of secret agents with the freedom to
violate the rights of any sentient being in the galaxy with no
absolutely no accountability. They callous and tyrannical because they
lord over others without giving them voice or vote.

What would you have them do? Mobiliize an entire fleet because one single solitary human had a nightmare about the end of the galaxy as they know it? You have to admit, that's really flimsy intel. Now, I will agree with you that their outright denial of the Reaper's existence in ME2 is really nuts, but they're trying to avoid panic, which helps no one. Their hands are tied. And how do you suggest that the Council fight against an enemy they're not aware of until the bodies are already piled up? Put a blockade around every far-flung human colony? That's ludicrous. And you're arguing against the existence of the Spectres? I would have thought that the freedom they have to make judgement calls would appeal to you. And we also have no concrete declaration of how those councilors get their position; it's implied by appointment in ME1, but we have no clue on how that candidate pool is chosen, or if there's elections or whatnot. Also remember that the Council has no offical say in how things are run; their decisions carry great weight, but they can't issue orders to governments. They're essentially a more respected, less inclusive version of the UN.

Saphra Deden wrote...

When you saved David you served one man and condemned millions more.

Are you even listening to me? I condemned no one. I averted conflict with the heretic Geth much earlier and without the need of the Overlord project.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Oh, and what good it has done us. In our weakened state, our ships
thrown into the fire to save the ingrates on the Council, they were
quick to show concern and come to our defense when our colonies began
vanishing. Oh, wait, that didn't happen, did it? Instead the Council
politely informed us it wasn't their problem.

I'll agree with you that the Council did drop the ball when it came to the Collectors. Though, again, short of putting defensive garrisons around human colonies, I have no clue what they could have done to stop them. Perhaps fund and support Shepard more? That actually might have worked, so yeah, they should have done that.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Apparently it was so important that you talk to fade that when he
fled and put his army of mercs inbetween you and him you continued
persuing him and cut a bloody swath until you were satisfied. I think
you are failing to live up to your own ideals.

It isn't really
your fault though. Garrus' loyalty mission is very poorly designed
because it forces many a Paragon to act out of character to even start
the mission. Garrus told you up front what he wanted to do and you took
him to do it anyway.

Again, I had no choice; I was going to get a hold of Fade, and I was forced to defend myself when I was shot at. It's sort of like extended suicide-by-cop, in a way.

And Garrus' loyalty mission is one of those situations where Paragons are forced to make decisions that would otherwise be averse to. Arrival and Legion's loyalty mission are up there too. It's really hard to fault me for doing the only thing that I could do in-game.

Saphra Deden wrote..
Then I think we are going to get along just fine.

Sounds good to me! Everything's above board, so I have no problem. Sure, it's been a heated discussion, but the both of us are invested in this emotionally, so that's what happens. You're great to debate with.

Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 08 avril 2011 - 06:05 .

[Russano Greenstripe]

Sajuukcor76 wrote...

Why I'm a Paragon? Muffin button.

Wait, what? Huh?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They are selfish. They are greedy. They hide behind platitudes of virtue
, and freely employ the mad, the corrupt, the outright genocidal to
their own advantage, and applaud it as 'valiant' and 'necessary' to
maintain their perch of the status quo, while accusing all others who
would do the same. I know this, because they have gladly and willingly
chosen me as their champion.

Wait, are you talking about the Council, or Cerberus? Because that's really difficult to discern from your statement alone. Put that way, the parallelism is striking.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I have seen the Aliens, and they are Us. And nothing fills me with disgust more.

This statement fascinates me. It's for the exact same reason that I'm filled with pride. The other members of the galaxy we inhabit are just as flawed, prone to error, and judgmental as we are, and you'd begrudge them for being like us? 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You who would demand sacrifices of others, and take no effort to support
those who have died for you! You who boast of your generosity and
benign nature when in fact you are merely the most successful and
established of the selfish! You who would sell out allies of a century
for an unknown, who would leave friends to die and be massacred for a
mistake you then accuse them of! You who would cling to privilege and
supremacy on the basis of past glory! You who believe that power is a
right to be handed to you, without question, for all time!

I don't know who you're talking about, because I have done none of those things. I demand sacrifices of no one; I argue against others giving of themselves, and gladly volunteer myself in their stead. Ask Kal'Reegar about that sometime. Oh wait, you let him die in vain. You call me selfish? What do you lose out on by your actions, besides perhaps allies that you never wanted? I have to fight fights that you get to avoid, lose credits that you get to keep. And what in blazes are you talking about with selling out allies? I can't remember a single instance of me doing so; enlighten me, if you will. And I never said that power was given to me; I have immense power and capablities that no one ceded to me. I merely invested that capability into those around me, instead of concentrating it in my own little corner of the universe.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I do not revere you. I do not even respect you. Power is not a
right: it is a reflection of what is, and if you can not support it
without us than it was never yours in the first place. I do not hate
you, but I will not follow you for Your sake and to maintain Your
privilage. For you have crafted and enforced a caste system of race and
genetic identity, and it was you who have led us, forced us, to identify
by race, by tribe, by family.

I still don't have the most basic clue about what you're going on about. What caste system? The one where humanity is now on political par with the other established species in the galaxy? I think you've confused me with yourself; you're the one who has created a system whereby races, tribes and families are subservient to ones greater than them, because to you, all others are now beneath humanity.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I stand by my kind. I stand by my family, my people, my race. I
know You understand, because this is the utopia you have envisioned for
two thousand years.

As I've stated before, I know what color my blood runs. I stood by my people as they were being assaulted by the geth. I stood with my people when they were being turned into Reaper amniotic fluid. I stood by my people by stopping Admiral Kahoku's killers. I stood by my people when I told the Council to stuff it and went to move against the Reapers when they would not. I stood by my people by securing reparations from the Turians as a result of the First Contact War. Don't you dare, for even the barest of a second, think that I've given up on my species.

Also, some food for thought: how is that new human-led council doing when it comes to protecting human colonies? Yeah, they seem to be on the ball, don't they?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
We will stand together, and we will persevere or fail, but we will not stop striving. For that is who we are.

I agree with you completely. The difference being, though, that you define "we" as humanity. I define "we" as "the entire Milky Way galaxy."

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I am a Renegade, and I am the product of your System.

And for that, I am deeply sorry.

[Dean_the_Young]

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Wait, are you talking about the Council, or Cerberus? Because that's really difficult to discern from your statement alone. Put that way, the parallelism is striking.

It's almost like it was intentional or something.

This statement fascinates me. It's for the exact same reason that I'm filled with pride. The other members of the galaxy we inhabit are just as flawed, prone to error, and judgmental as we are, and you'd begrudge them for being like us?

The Renegade depicted does not begrudge them for being like us: the Renegade depicted loses any and all romantic views about how they are wiser species vis a vis the rest of the galaxy.

I don't know who you're talking about, because I have done none of those things.

What manner of ego makes you think it's about you, Paragon?

Ask Kal'Reegar about that sometime. Oh wait, you let him die in vain.

Kal'Reegar lives... if you're good enough.

I still don't have the most basic clue about what you're going on about. What caste system? The one where humanity is now on political par with the other established species in the galaxy?

Yes: being in the privelaged caste does not make it any less of a caste system, in which political and civil rights, liberties, and opportunities are affected primarily by your species of birth.

Don't you dare, for even the barest of a second, think that I've given up on my species.

Again, why do you presuppose this is about you, Paragon, and not the Council?

Also, some food for thought: how is that new human-led council doing when it comes to protecting human colonies? Yeah, they seem to be on the ball, don't they?

If you listen to the news in the game, while the Human Council is slow to react, it actually does. It even sends in the Citadel fleet.

I agree with you completely. The difference being, though, that you define "we" as humanity. I define "we" as "the entire Milky Way galaxy."

If you do so, you do so. That's not how the Council performs, but then that's who we're talking about.

And for that, I am deeply sorry.

Indeed. The  irony of the Renegade is that it's not an aberration of the Council's system of race-centric power structures and self-interest, it is the logical result of it: a race-centric, self-advancing system that glorifies 'necessary action' in its own interest.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Turneyvore]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I am a Renegade, and I am the product of your System.

I would follow you into hell if you would have me.

[Russano Greenstripe]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What manner of ego makes you think it's about you, Paragon?

The whole point of this thread is the player's actions as Paragon and Renegade, not the inherent rightness and wrongness of the Council's actions. While it's a related point, it's also a separate topic.

Saphra Deden wrote...
However humanity may also still come into conflict with them. Do not
confuse Legion's alliance with you as anything more than convenience.
The geth are not our friends. They are a hostile species which kills anyone who comes near them.

Legion flat-out states that the heretical geth are the ones that attack organics, not the remaining 95% of their population. And the remaining 5% are soon going to rejoin the rest of the geth. Whether or not that process of reintegration goes smoothly, or if every heretic out there got rewritten is something that I hope to see played out in ME3. If the geth do become foes again in ME3, my guess is that the galactic community at large will attack them out of misunderstanding, not out of any hatred the geth hold of organic life. Sure, you're not about to see quarians and geth holding hands and frollicking in the fields of Rannoch any time soon, but they're not space ****s either.

Saphra Deden wrote...
The rachni fall into the same boat. You don't know if the queen was
truthful, you just assumed she was, mainly because you didn't have the
heart to kill her.

I'll be honest and say that I had no clue how it would play out at the time. But evidence suggests that the non-crazy Rachni are not antagonistical either. The asari on Illium makes multiple reassurances of that, and Rachni ships in space avoid contact with passing vessels. As I stated earlier in the thread, if it turns out that she lied to me, then I'll gladly take care of the problem myself. It'll be my burden to bear, and my responsibility to fix. I accept that eventuality.

Saphra Deden wrote...
How about asking them to mobilize the fleet because a race of
hostile A.I.'s has invaded one colony and is attacking several more?
That's not asking for too much, is it?

Remember that Eden Prime is not in Council space; it's not their responsibility to look after worlds outside of their domain. Then it becomes the Systems Alliance's job. Besides the losses on Eden Prime, we did a pretty good job of defending aginst heretic geth, especially in the Armstrong Cluster.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Chasing after Fade is not self-defense, Russano. Self-defense
would have been you holding position and all the mercs coming to you.
Instead you ran onward. I think you are missing the point though. You
knew from the begining that Garrus was going to kill Sidonis, so why did
you take him to meet Fade in the first place? If you are so against
revenge in cold blood you should have just told him to forget about it
and moved on with the mission. This would be roleplaying.

Following him wasn't some great moral failure either; sure, I had to kill a lot of people and destroy some property to do so, but as I stated before, I never shot until I was fired upon. (Mostly because I am a squishy Engineer, and when I see something that wants to kill me, I hide behind boxes.) And it was never my intention to let Garrus kill Sidonis; I walked out of that mission with his loyalty and Sidonis walked away with an un-ventilated skull. I knew it was Garrus' intention to kill the man, but that doesn't mean I let him. It was the intention of ExoGeni to turn Zhu's Hope into an experiment that Mengele would have been proud of, but I didn't let them, either.

Actively working with your squadmates to brighten their outlook on life and prevent them from making mistakes that they will regret is roleplaying, too.