72 réponses à ce sujet

[Russano Greenstripe]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Those geth are still hostile. If humans go anywhere near them the geth shoot them on sight. They do that with every organic in the galaxy. Meanwhile they are building a Reaper-like structure and manipulating organics. If they won't do anything but shoot at us then we can't have diplomacy with them. That makes them a threat, and with that being the case we need to have contingencies in place incase it ever comes to war.

There's no hard evidence of that; all the geth that is encountered over the course of the two games are heretics. Do you honestly believe that the same race that is actively fixing and repairing the quarian homeworld so tha it's more agreeable to organice life is the same one that plans to kill us all? The only threat they pose to us is presenting a great big sword for warmongers to impale themselves on.

Saphra Deden wrote...
I am sure that will be comforting to the thousands of lives lost as a result of your misplaced trust.

And I'm sure the families of all the lives you decided to end simply because they could be a threat to you feel the same way.

Saphra Deden wrote...
You are wrong about Eden Prime, by the way. Council Space is any region under the control of a race affiliated with the Council. Wherever the Alliance has jurisdiction the Council does too. Otherwise Nihlus would have had no authority on the Normandy.

I find it frankly absurd that a geth invasion is "a matter of some concern". The geth had remained behind the Veil for 300 years and they attacked without warning, with a massive dreadnought, and technology more advanced than our own. This is the greatest example of the Council's callousness and stupidity.

I had to go and double check, but you're indeed right. So I'll give that; the council did indeed have the authority to declare war based on an attack on Eden Prime.

And trust me, Councilor Valern (I'm assuming that he's the Turian) annoys the hell out of me, too. He berates the player after Feros, stating that I wouldn't have been so quick to help had it been a turian colony. That's an outright lie; if I could render aid to a turian colony under attack, I would do so. Though, he may not know that. But this street goes both ways, you know! <_<

I'll agree with you that the Council can be annoying and definitely makes mistakes. But on the other hand, it doesn't hurt in the slightest to have them working with humanity, instead of against them. And installing an all-human council at the end of ME1 feels waay too much like a coup for me.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Also you are totally missing the point about Garrus and his loyalty mission.

I think you and I view the mission differently, is all. I didn't know those mercenaries from Adam's Housecat; they'd done me no wrong. By the construct of the game itself, not because of my choices, I had to take 'em down. Mass Effect, unfortunately, is not a game where you can make a pacifist run. But that doesn't mean I have to take every life I can, either.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Right, what measure is a mook, anyway?

You have no clue at all how much I've had to bite my tongue and not Conversationally Trope during this debate. It's a constant struggle.

[Russano Greenstripe]

EDIT: Double post, nothing to see. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

Modifié par Russano Greenstripe, 09 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[Russano Greenstripe]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh boy, I don't like where this is going. Legion is the evidence. Legion tells us all of this. You are the one who brought him up in the first place.

The threat the geth posed to us is that they have large fleet , are technologically advanced, and are unfriendly.

What's wrong with using Legion as the arguing point? Do you not trust him? Or did you sell him to Cerberus for the credits?

Saphra Deden wrote...
The many, the few. Do the math.

And yet I achieved the same goals as you did (except for when it came to Balak, Elnora, Vido and Arrival; four choices out of the hundreds across two games) without the losses. Why let those people die when none have to? You're probably sick of hearing at this point, but Feros really is a great example of what I mean by this. You and I both destroyed the Thorian and recovered the Cipher. The difference between you and I being that when I left Feros, it was better than when I came; when you left, it was worse off.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Except they never do work with us. Ever. They are comletely useless to us as allies.

I get the very distinct feeling that they'll be a bit more active when they can't dismiss the claims of the Reaper's existence. My sincerest hope is that such a point will come earlier than later, but we'll have to wait and see. They are indeed powerful; ask the krogan or the batarians what happens when you ****** off the Council. Usually, bad things. I'd like to do my best to avoid bad things.

Now, I have a question for you: Why are you so unwilling to take these risks? If nothing else, from a metatexual standpoint, they're almost guaranteed to pay off. Bioware isn't going to write ME3 to where it says "Oh, you were Paragon in the first two games, you lose. Enjoy those worsening scars on your next playthrough!" Some, if not all, of those choices are going to pay off.

By not taking chances on the Krogan, the Rachni, the Geth, you lose valuable resources that humanity could otherwise use to fight the Reapers. Look at it from a Renegade standpoint; if other races are taking losses in the battle, that's less human forces that are taking hits. There's no need to stand alone against such a powerful foe.

[Dean_the_Young]

Turneyvore wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I am a Renegade, and I am the product of your System.

I would follow you into hell if you would have me.

You swear yourself too freely.

Not interested.

[Dean_the_Young]

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What manner of ego makes you think it's about you, Paragon?

The whole point of this thread is the player's actions as Paragon and Renegade, not the inherent rightness and wrongness of the Council's actions. While it's a related point, it's also a separate topic.

So... just ego, really.

Legion flat-out states that the heretical geth are the ones that attack organics, not the remaining 95% of their population. And the remaining 5% are soon going to rejoin the rest of the geth. Whether or not that process of reintegration goes smoothly, or if every heretic out there got rewritten is something that I hope to see played out in ME3. If the geth do become foes again in ME3, my guess is that the galactic community at large will attack them out of misunderstanding, not out of any hatred the geth hold of organic life. Sure, you're not about to see quarians and geth holding hands and frollicking in the fields of Rannoch any time soon, but they're not space ****s either.

Legion never once claims that Geth and Organics won't come into conflict in the future. Moreover, the Geth, like any other species, have shown willingness and capability to change their minds. All Geth have always been isolationists, until the point at which they change their mind: this is not a convincing standard.

I'll be honest and say that I had no clue how it would play out at the time. But evidence suggests that the non-crazy Rachni are not antagonistical either. The asari on Illium makes multiple reassurances of that, and Rachni ships in space avoid contact with passing vessels. As I stated earlier in the thread, if it turns out that she lied to me, then I'll gladly take care of the problem myself. It'll be my burden to bear, and my responsibility to fix. I accept that eventuality.

It won't be your burden. It would be everyone's burden. Sort of how like if an airliner crashes because of you, you aren't the only one who has to deal with it. The people in the plane and the people on the ground matter as well.

No decision can be justified retroactively. The validity of a decision is based on what is known at the time.

Remember that Eden Prime is not in Council space;

It is.

Besides the losses on Eden Prime, we did a pretty good job of defending aginst heretic geth, especially in the Armstrong Cluster.

Despite the Council, not because of it, and in large part because the Heretics didn't throw everything they had at us. Making out as well as we did was not obvious, not inherent, and not guaranteed.

Following him wasn't some great moral failure either; sure, I had to kill a lot of people and destroy some property to do so, but as I stated before, I never shot until I was fired upon. (Mostly because I am a squishy Engineer, and when I see something that wants to kill me, I hide behind boxes.)

That argument itself is a moral failure.

'I am perfectly nonviolent: I just followed and enabled a murderous vigilante assault and opened fire once they defended themselves.'

And it was never my intention to let Garrus kill Sidonis; I walked out of that mission with his loyalty and Sidonis walked away with an un-ventilated skull. I knew it was Garrus' intention to kill the man, but that doesn't mean I let him. It was the intention of ExoGeni to turn Zhu's Hope into an experiment that Mengele would have been proud of, but I didn't let them, either.

If it was never your intention to give him the chance, then why did you do just that?

Actively working with your squadmates to brighten their outlook on life and prevent them from making mistakes that they will regret is roleplaying, too.

Sure. You can also roleplay a lunatic. Doesn't make the roleplaying decisions any more sensible.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

ITT: Making grand speeches makes me right. What I find interesting is why this was posted in Characters and Fan Creations, I was under the impression that the home for endless alignment flamewars is in Offical Campaign Quests and Storyline.

Rachni: Yes, the Rachni built one heck of a military back in their home system. Except they're on Noveria now. The amount of resources available is approximately zero (RQ is stuck in the middle of Peak 15, which is inoperable, surrounded by snow). In ME2, we hear that the Rachni have developed some small scout ships. The Rachni aren't going to explode into some threat immediately. They don't have the resources for that. The Rachni population/fleet is going to grow very slowly. And the Council knows about the Rachni on Noveria (and the other ones in the Listening Post missions are all killed off). A Rachni population explosion isn't an imminent threat. The Rachni are going to be constrained to a small area, and the Council knows about them. Worst case scenario, just hit them with the 'good stuff'.

Dr. Archer: Archer is doing the same thing as Rael`Zorah and Daro`Xen. Of course, much like Rael`Zorah and friends, Archer is a complete moron and of course, the project turns into a disaster that nearly causes an 'information apocalypse' or whatever the trailer called it. This guy is clearly incompetent. His experiments, so far, have managed to create a computer virus that nearly took the entire extranet, until (like every other Cerberus project) Shepard has to save the day. I take the Paragon route of taking David away, since letting this idiot continue his experiments means I am going to have to go bail them out AGAIN.

That's my rationale for destroying the collector base. I'm not sure where Cerberus gets their science teams, but I don't even want to imagine how they'll screw up the Collector Base. Between Pragia, Overlord, and heck, let's talk about the Normandy SR-2. This is the same ship where a computer virus manages to brick vital systems - and the only way to reactivate the ship is to unshackle the AI. Who DESIGNS THIS CRAP? Why are they using VI's to control critical systems? In the real world, these systems are controlled with low-tech hardware, generally electromechanical relays, because they're not software-controlled.

[lovgreno]

I find paragon more realistic as bullies like renegade Shep (well usualy) are almost always losers in real life. Cooperation is what changes and improves things, not waving your di... I mean gun at anyone who dares to disagree.

[Golden Owl]

lovgreno wrote...

I find paragon more realistic as bullies like renegade Shep (well usualy) are almost always losers in real life. Cooperation is what changes and improves things, not waving your di... I mean gun at anyone who dares to disagree.

Yes, well said ovgreno...

[GuardianAngel470]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

You think that I don't have regrets? That I celebrate every action I've had to take? The loss of the Jakarta, the Madrid, the Cairo, the Seoul, the Shenyang, the Emden, the Cape Town, and the Warsaw are tragic. I wanted to kill to Balak, Vido Santiago, and Elnora, and I continue to hunt them to this day. Don't think for a second that you're the only one who has had to lose things.

Make sure to add the names of all the millions of people killed in war with the geth, the rachni, the Reapers, and the batarians. Conflicts you could have prevented if you'd been willing to get your hands dirty. Sometimes peace requires bloodshed. You can't always fight purely defensively.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Just because some of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy didn't bend to your every whim doesn't make them callous or tyrannical.

No, they are callous and tyrannical because they are perfectly content to sit idly by while entire sentient species are wiped out by genocidal machines. They are callous and tyrannical because they are perfectly willing to sit idly by while their allies are assaulted by mysterious and impervious aliens. They are callous and tyrannical because they created an order of secret agents with the freedom to violate the rights of any sentient being in the galaxy with no absolutely no accountability. They callous and tyrannical because they lord over others without giving them voice or vote.

Good riddance.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Here I'm going to have to disagree with you; it wasn't Vigil's decision to do so. He carried out what his programming told him to do. His programmers, the Protheans...

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Remember: the Paragon reaction to this information is accuse Vigil of murder. Only a Renegade recognizes the pragmatism and necessity of it.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

I would glaldy set all the terrorists and mercs in the universe free if it meant that an accused innocent would live.

...and that a million more would die.

Russano Greenstipre wrote...

I phrased my statements poorly, and for that, I apologize; what I meant to say was that you didn't serve them, despite them being people.

You can't please everybody. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the few to save the many. That's a reality.

When you saved David you served one man and condemned millions more.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

In case you haven't noticed, humanity is part of the Council as well.

Oh, and what good it has done us. In our weakened state, our ships thrown into the fire to save the ingrates on the Council, they were quick to show concern and come to our defense when our colonies began vanishing. Oh, wait, that didn't happen, did it? Instead the Council politely informed us it wasn't their problem.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

I had no quarrel with those mercs; I only wanted to talk to Fade.

Apparently it was so important that you talk to fade that when he fled and put his army of mercs inbetween you and him you continued persuing him and cut a bloody swath until you were satisfied. I think you are failing to live up to your own ideals.

It isn't really your fault though. Garrus' loyalty mission is very poorly designed because it forces many a Paragon to act out of character to even start the mission. Garrus told you up front what he wanted to do and you took him to do it anyway.

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

Not at all! It gives me more to argue about; In case you haven't noticed, I like to argue. :happy:

Then I think we are going to get along just fine.

Just wanted to point out that this war with the geth is an assumption. There is no more reason to distrust Legion than there is to trust him. Geth attacked the Citadel but a Geth saved the Aleri (however its spelled) and all of humanity in the terminus systems.

You tout a war with the geth as justification but you take the same level of leap in logic to make your decision as a paragon who saves David.

Likewise with the Rachni. Yeah there was a war... 2000 years ago. This would be like if you were British and hated anyone from Italy because of how Rome conquered Britain.

If you honestly think that it is impossible for the Rachni to have changed in that time you're making a huge leap in logic. It's no more unreasonable to assume that the Rachni queen you're talking to on Noveria is benign than it is to assume she isn't.

If you don't remember, one of the Doctors, Tartakovski I think it was, confirms what the Queen says to you about the rachni you had been fighting. You think she indoctrinated him to say that?

Every major decision both paragon and renegade are based on assumptions. Stating your rationale as fact is disingenuous.

[Bachmors]

Interesting read!

I prefer to play a Renegon ... a badass, tough on the outside, but showing a soft side towards innocents, while showing no mercy against the bad guys.

I think a pure Paragon is too naive and self-righteous and a pure Renegade is just an a**hole.

The only situation where I just can't choose the Paragon-dialog is during Mordin's loyalty-mission ... the Weyrloc-Commander (the one who "talks too much") basically tells you exactly what is going to happen if the genophage gets cured (galaxy drowning in a sea of blood etc.). Sometimes you just have to take drastic actions to prevent an even greater catastrophe. I also always kill Balak, Aresh etc ... you just can't let a terrorist (Balak) walk free who is going to kill millions of people (he will try to do it again, and you probably won't be around the next time) to save 4-5 people.

Modifié par Bachmors, 09 avril 2011 - 12:39 .

[Golden Owl]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


Just wanted to point out that this war with the geth is an assumption. There is no more reason to distrust Legion than there is to trust him. Geth attacked the Citadel but a Geth saved the Aleri (however its spelled) and all of humanity in the terminus systems.

You tout a war with the geth as justification but you take the same level of leap in logic to make your decision as a paragon who saves David.

Likewise with the Rachni. Yeah there was a war... 2000 years ago. This would be like if you were British and hated anyone from Italy because of how Rome conquered Britain.

If you honestly think that it is impossible for the Rachni to have changed in that time you're making a huge leap in logic. It's no more unreasonable to assume that the Rachni queen you're talking to on Noveria is benign than it is to assume she isn't.

If you don't remember, one of the Doctors, Tartakovski I think it was, confirms what the Queen says to you about the rachni you had been fighting. You think she indoctrinated him to say that?

Every major decision both paragon and renegade are based on assumptions. Stating your rationale as fact is disingenuous.

Very good points...I think all that each of us can really hope for with our various choices, is that we have managed to make beneficial choices no matter how limited the information we had to base our choices on and our individual perceptions of these choices.

[naddaya]

Russano Greenstripe wrote...

I'm still chomping at the bit to put bullets into Balak, trust me. I really hope that I get the opportunity to kill him in ME3. If he did that and I didn't get a chance to take him down, then I am going to be severly pissed off with Bioware for that. And I'm willing to give the Rachni queen the benefit of the doubt; I wasn't there during the Rachni Wars. Their ships avoid others when encountered in space, according to news reports, and they are willing to assist the bereft that get stranded on their planet. If the Rachni queen goes against her word, then Grunt, Wrex and I are going down in those tunnels she's holed up in and filling her full of buckshot.

Rewriting the Geth is a decision that I still wrestle with. On one hand, it's much more preferable than blowing them up. But as characters like Jack and Jacob point out, some would gladly die as themselves as opposed to being altered to someone's whim, and I understand that. At the end of the day, though, I find it difficult to murder in cold blood (again, I don't have Arrival, don't argue that against me), and I had literally no other alternative but to rewrite them. If there had been a third option, there's a good chance I would have gone with it.

And as to Sargeant Cathka, I didn't feel that the ends justified the means in that case. I usually find the Gunship portion of that mission to be a lot easier than the parts before it, because I don't have to protect Garrus and I can just spam Incinerates on the thing. As I said before, I find it really difficult to kill in cold blood.

Rewriting them isn't preferable to me. Human ethics aren't appliable to Geth, Legion stated that, but it feels like brainwashing. If there is a chance for them to make the same choice, and again I think it's highly probable, I'm not going to let it happen. Killing is killing, be it in cold blood or during a fight makes no difference to me. The gunship could have blown up all of us if repaired. It didn't happen, but I had no way to know it. I'm not saying it was the right choice. I'm saying there is no right choice at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Just wanted to point out that this war with the geth is an assumption. There is no more reason to distrust Legion than there is to trust him. Geth attacked the Citadel but a Geth saved the Aleri (however its spelled) and all of humanity in the terminus systems.

Even if there were no more reason to distrust Legion than not, that's actually the reason not to: reasons to trust need to outweigh reasons to not trust if you want to commit to something big.

But, then, we don't have equal reasons. We have all the supported, demonstratable behavior of Geth over the centuries and last three years on one hand, and a bunch of unsupported, unproven claims made by one individual platform on the other.

Likewise with the Rachni. Yeah there was a war... 2000 years ago. This would be like if you were British and hated anyone from Italy because of how Rome conquered Britain.

Better analogy, to invoke Godwin's Law, would be if we found a secret underground **** colony inhabited by ****s who had all the capability for danger of the ****s.

If you honestly think that it is impossible for the Rachni to have changed in that time you're making a huge leap in logic. It's no more unreasonable to assume that the Rachni queen you're talking to on Noveria is benign than it is to assume she isn't.

Actually, it is more unreasonable. We're not looking at 2000 years of growth and development after the War on the Rachni's part, we're looking at the literal next generation of a species who's entire exposure has been that every generation followed their parent's footsteps and did harm.

Genetic memory basis and all that, yo.

If you don't remember, one of the Doctors, Tartakovski I think it was, confirms what the Queen says to you about the rachni you had been fighting. You think she indoctrinated him to say that?

She doesn't need to to have no bearing on whether she is dangerous or not. Whether she is good and pure or pure evil and scheming would have no difference to whether her children would go crazy without her.

Every major decision both paragon and renegade are based on assumptions. Stating your rationale as fact is disingenuous.

Not all assumptions are equal.

[Elite Midget]

Why Am I Paragon?

I get Special Treatment from Bioware in the form of cameo's, getting hit on by hot aliens, and still saving the Universe even when logic would be better serve doing some Renegade things from time to time. Such blowing up the base didn't bite me in the ass since TIM tries to kill you in ME3 anyway.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 09 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[lovgreno]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why Am I Paragon?

I get Special Treatment from Bioware in the form of cameo's, getting hit on by hot aliens, and still saving the Universe even when logic would be better serve doing some Renegade things from time to time. Such blowing up the base didn't bite me in the ass since TIM tries to kill you in ME3 anyway.

Everyone is out to get the renegades. Totaly the victims of paragon fans and BioWare.

Seriously though, it's not that big difference between paragon and renegade consequences.

[Ty2011]

MadCat221 wrote...

Paragons do what's necessary. Renegades do what's convenient.

Agreed.

[Haventh]

 I find to play pure Paragon  to be as lame as playing pure Renegade, personally (as in my opinion). I always either play Paragade or Renegon, becasue i believe full Paragon or Renegade is very unrealistic.  

As much as a Paragon might loose temper sometimes, it is also likely that a Renegade will be a nice guy (or girl) sometimes. 

Modifié par Haventh, 10 avril 2011 - 12:06 .