215 replies to this topic

[SuicidalBaby]

All information is up to date as of patch 1.02

Lesson : #12 - (5/19/11)
subjects:
How Patch 1.02 changed how "enemy: rank" works
Use Current Conditon for Next Tactic 102
Mage Ranks

Lesson : #11 - (5/7/11)
subjects:
Team Red Mist (Anders/Sebastian or Varric/Aveline or Fenris)
Elemental Force/Blood Mage - Nuclear Warfare (Nightmare Guide) by Arelex
Trimming the fat
Recognising value of ability points

Lessons : 9 & 10 - (5/6/11)
subjects covered:
Team Red Mist (Anders/Sebastian or Varric/Aveline or Fenris)
Elemental Force/Blood Mage - Nuclear Warfare (Nightmare Guide) by Arelex
Pushing great builds to their limits
Group synergy 102
Understanding damage sources
Controling companions through triggers and corresponding tactics
Recognizing wasted ability points
Recognizing the increased value of abilities over time


Lessons : 6, 7, & 8 - (5/5/11)
subjects covered:
Dual-Wield Assassin - When Overkill Isn't Enough (Nightmare Guide) Companions by Arelex.
Conditions with two targets
K.I.S.S.
Identifying Purpose


Lessons 3, 4, & 5 : (5/4/11)
subjects covered:
Berserker Vanguard - Mach-5 Massacre (Nightmare Guide) Companions by Arelex
How to streamline and synergize the group
Identifying utility spells
Controling Martyr
Working with 2 independant limiting sustained abilities
Efficiency
Group Synergy 101

Lesson #2 : - (4/11/11)
subjects covered:
use condition for next tactic 101
enemy rank conditions 101

Lesson #1 : - (4/8/11)
PC Spirit Healer: How to not waste your mana pool while controling another character.
*Group conditions include a Warrior with Rally

Build :
Rock Armor
Chain Lightning
Chain Reaction
Elemental Weapons
Hex of Torment
Heal
Heroic Aura
Valiant Aura
Haste
Great Haste
Spirit Healer
Healing Aura
Group Heal
Unity

Tactics:

1. ally: hp <50%: Heal
2. ally: hp <50%: jump to tactic 13
3. self: any: deactivate: Healing Aura
4. enemy: target rank is elite or higher: Hex of Torment
5. enemy: STAGGERED: Chain Lightning
6. self: at least 5 enemies are alive: Haste
7. self: mana <75%: activate: Heroic Aura
8. self: mana <75%: activate: Elemental Weapons
9. enemy: any: activate: Summon Mabarii
10. self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
11. self: any: deactivate: Elemental Weapons
12. self: any: deactivate: Heroic Aura - actual jump destination
13. ally: hp: <50%: activate: Healing Aura
14. ally: hp: <50%: Group Heal

Jump to Tactic # : Jump = (x -1)
"Jump to tactic," will direct tactics to the number assigned minus 1.
The order of the tactics is paramount. The jump tactic will only fire if an ally is under 50% health, so if Heal comes off cooldown before the group heal is needed everything will fire right back up with out wasting a large percentage of mana. Deactivating Healing Aura allows offensive spell casting to resume and opens up all that empty mana to then be used by the previous sustains rather than eat into the remaining mana. This way your healer will not waste what little mana it has remaining by activating heavy sustained ability to just fire off 1 heal spell while still being able to use offensive abilities and other supportive sustained abilities.

Skip Tactics :
This little nugget of joy allows us to ignore any tactics placed after it until the condition controling skip tactics no longer exists. When the condition controling 'skip tactics' is met, "at least one enemy is alive," it will immediately restart the rotation back at the very first tactic in the list. This grants us the ability to remotely turn off all tactics at the end of combat in order to free up mana for the start of a new encounter as well as work tactics to our favor during combat. In this case, conserving as much mana as possible while still being an offensive force, not just sitting idle as support bot.

For the uninitiated :
Tactics work by running down the list 1 item at a time checking for conditions set in those tactics. When it finds a tactic that has its conditions met, it will trigger that tactic then return to the begining of the list. Rechecking each condition untill it fires again, repeating the process. Which explains the occasional delay when firing off status oriented CCC abilities. Adding a second instance of the CCC ability in the later end of the tactics may solve existing delays in larger tactic builds.

Why don't you have a tactic for use item: Health Poultice? :

***as of patch 1.04 this bug has been fixed***

-The tactic, "use item: x," has a hidden issue where if you no longer have that item, it removes it from the tactic.
example: Assassins or Rage Demons steal all of your Health Poultices
-There is also an error that occurs if you change the order of the tactic, which will cause the tactic to lose the location of the item. Interpreting this as the item no longer exists in your inventory, it removes it from the tactic.
These issues cause a broken tactic, which forces your system to constantly search your inventory every time that broken tactic is checked causing an ever increasing delay between tactics as well as random tactics firing.

Notice :
Feel free to ask any question about tactics or post issues you are having with your tactics. Myself or anyone with knowledge willing to help will do what we can to help you. Please include an accurate copy of your entire tactics list so we can clearly see the entire situation. A brief explanation of what you are attempting to accomplish would be helpful. Issues concerning more than one character should post tactic lists from all characters involved.
Be aware that if I suggest another direction for your build or tactics, its not personal.

Money Guide - NM Blood Mage Compendium

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 16 June 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[AreleX]

Good post, very informative for those who don't have a good grasp on how the tactics work yet.

Edited by AreleX, 08 April 2011 - 05:44 AM.

[Waltzingbear]

Have you tested it or is this theoretical?

How long does it take him to deactivate three sustains?

From my experience trying to skip tactics using At least # enemies alive does not actually skip.


Anyway, with the way I set up Anders' tactics there's just no way to fit in those as well. Not that I need to however; Anders seem to be doing fine keeping his mana between 10%-30%.

Edited by Waltzingbear, 08 April 2011 - 06:23 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

I tested this on the Deep Roads Dragon forcing a situation where Heal was on cooldown and another character was below 50% health.  The delay was quite painful to wait through, but it did work.  I have also tested it on "everything" in act 2 prior to talking to the Arishok about the gas. The delay does increase with each level the jump is above the baseline and each tactic untill the Group Heal after the jump. But you can reduce the time by removing the lighter sustains' deactivation tactics. 
I will be testing it further with Merrill self-inflicting damage to 25% and see how I can improve delay times.

The skip works as I explained, it will not touch anything after it untill every enemy is dead or you jump past that paticular tactic. Remember that this is simply an example of the format.  I do use the same "skip tactics" element on all my characters for their paticular situation with sustains and everything works as I have explained.

I have since edited the OP and removed the Stone Armor deactivation and changed around the Heroic Aura deactivate to match the condition of the heal. This has streamlined the delay situation, so that if the ally heals before it triggers because of the delay, there is no unnecessary deactivation.

The delay is directly linked to the tactic, use item.

AreleX wrote...

Good post, very informative for those who don't have a good grasp on how the tactics work yet.

My tactics are scary now, I really feel like if I could set the character I'm controling to auto pilot I could just watch the game as a movie.  It's getting to the point where there are times the tactics out perform me.  Instances still arise where it would be impossible for it to clog a doorway or close a door so I will occasionally switch characters.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 08 April 2011 - 11:19 PM.

[Laroy Darksword]

Great information, thank you!

Can you post your companions tactics? or more examples about the "skip tactics" tactic...

Thank you again

[SuicidalBaby]

After continued testing, results have been veried from the second the ally drops below 50% to 10-12 seconds after that threshold. I can't pinpoint the issue just yet. If I move a tactic around I will reapply every tactic listed and hope everything works. At this point its more of a 5:1 everything goes off right, when it works its a beautiful thing. When it doesn't, I jump over and do it manually, then reapply all tactics and that seems to remedy it. I am leaning toward the poultice tactic causing the issue. It may just be that tactics will generally screw up and wont follow the path set, which this wouldn't be the first instance of.

Laroy Darksword wrote...
Can you post your companions tactics? or more examples about the "skip tactics" tactic...

Click the Blood Mage Compendium link in my signature and scroll down to the Companions section.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 08 April 2011 - 12:05 PM.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I noticed several times during my games that an item tactic will vanish from the list, but not completely. The item to use is blank, but it still says 'Use Item: '. Could that be throwing it?

[AreleX]

I've noticed that a lot of the time my poultice tactic disappears, it's right after I set the tactic (most often when I switch to a different character, and don't back out to the character screen, then select another, or when it asks me if I want to save the tactics). Sometimes, I'll double check, and it'll be fine, but then I'll notice tactics not going off when they're supposed to in combat. After the fight, I check, and either all my item tactics are blank, and everything is jumbled around, or it, for some reason, replaces the poultice tactic with a stamina draught, blanks the mana/stamina line, and all the tactics are jumbled.

I really wish this game would just work how it's supposed to.

[SirValeq]

I've experienced the blank item slot in the tactics many times as well (on PC).
I hope fixing the tactics is high on their priority list when it comes to patching the game...

Edited by iLikeBWgames, 08 April 2011 - 12:05 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

AreleX wrote...

I've noticed that a lot of the time my poultice tactic disappears, it's right after I set the tactic (most often when I switch to a different character, and don't back out to the character screen, then select another, or when it asks me if I want to save the tactics). Sometimes, I'll double check, and it'll be fine, but then I'll notice tactics not going off when they're supposed to in combat. After the fight, I check, and either all my item tactics are blank, and everything is jumbled around, or it, for some reason, replaces the poultice tactic with a stamina draught, blanks the mana/stamina line, and all the tactics are jumbled.

I really wish this game would just work how it's supposed to.

I think simply relying on heal and group heal as the SH will fix the situation.  I have been moving a few things around and have gotten a pretty stable set up.  Jump is now 2nd with Heal 1st.  Making sure jump is on the right tactic helps too. ;p  did that once heh.  Also made Jump go directly to Heroic Aura rather than elemental, and elemental will just activate when it should as tactics are set, after other spells so its not wasting the initial 10% and will turn off at the end as planned.

[SuicidalBaby]

I also need a verification on:

enemy: nearest visable class: rogue: Does this damn thing even work?

I could swear it has never fired the assigned ability.

[Nukenin]

In my experience moving a Use Item tactic up or down the list will result in the item either blanking out or being replaced with the item that previously occupied the new slot.

Assume your first three tactics are:

1. Self: Health < 25% -> Use: Health Potion
2. Self: Mana or Stamina < 10% -> Use: Stamina Draught
3. Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies -> Confusion

Now move #1 under #2 and exit (Back) out of the tactics editor.  Go back in.  You'll likely now see:

1. Self: Mana or Stamina < 10% -> Use: Health Potion
2. Self: Health < 25% -> Use: Stamina Draught
3. Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies -> Confusion

Now move the new #1 under #3 and exit (Back) out of the tactics editor.  Go back in.  You'll likely now see:

1. Self: Health < 25% -> Use: Health Potion
2. Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies -> Confusion
3. Self: Mana or Stamina < 10% -> Use: (empty)

This seems to be (for me) consistent and reproducible.  This may or may not explain most of the issues you are seeing.

Now my habit is to double-check tactics after any movement or introduction of a Use Item tactic.  Simply correcting the item in place (i.e. not moving the tactic around again) serves as an effective resolution for now.

EDIT: This forum software doesn't handle (ordered) lists properly, resulting in an ever increasing indent.  Replaced with good ol' manual numbering.  

Edited by Nukenin, 08 April 2011 - 12:48 PM.

[Nukenin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I also need a verification on:

enemy: nearest visable class: rogue: Does this damn thing even work?

I could swear it has never fired the assigned ability.

In a quick test with Varric in Woodrow's Warehouse, changing all his abilities to only activate on Enemy: Nearest visible rogue, he did nothing but the default attack, even with a Raider Assassin (who I presume is a rogue) right in front of him.

Changing a tactic to Enemy: Nearest visible warrior did nothing, as Varric did nothing but the default attack even with a Raider Reaver (who I presume is a warrior) right in front of him.

Now I have to rummage through my saves for an obvious mage encounter.

EDIT: Okay, fighting a Coterie Alchemist in the Disused Passage under the docks, with all of Varrics abilities set to fire on Enemy: Nearest visible mage, Varric was indeed firing off his abilities (once I positioned him to ensure he could see the alchemist).  So this one works at least.

Edited by Nukenin, 08 April 2011 - 01:06 PM.

[brazen_nl]

Aren't you wasting a Heal when you could've used an Aid Allies immediately?

When there are two party members with hp<50%, rule 1 triggers. On the second run through, 1 can't trigger because it's on cooldown, so the JMP triggers and eventually it will get to Aid Allies to only heal the remaining one member, which makes the initial heal a waste.

So why not check for multiple party members first and process a single party member last?

Edited by brazen_nl, 08 April 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[Nukenin]

brazen_nl wrote...

Aren't you wasting a Heal when you could've used an Aid Allies immediately?

When there are two party members with hp<50%, rule 1 triggers. On the second run through, 1 can't trigger because it's on cooldown, so the JMP triggers and eventually it will get to Aid Allies to only heal the remaining one member, which makes the initial heal a waste.

So why not check for multiple party members first and process a single party member last?

Change #2 to Self: At least two party members below 50% health -> Jump to: 12 (or 11 or whichever is intended to be the first "make way for Healing Aura" tactic).

Then switch #1 and #2.

Then change all the conditionals for the build-up to Healing Aura (starting at tactic #12 or #11 or whichever) to Self: At least two party members below 50% health.

I'd insert a Self: Health < 25% -> Use: Health Potion as the first tactic so that the mage Hawke avoids prepping for Healing Aura if it's just him and a companion contributing to the party members below 50% health condition (unless health potions are on cooldown).

Edited by Nukenin, 08 April 2011 - 01:34 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

simply put,

because 1 ally could be the only 1 getting knocked below 50% after either heal is on cooldown. Making your point miss the point. The first heal was never wasted, its use is constant, making the more potent Group Heal/Aid Allies a back up where it is only triggered when absolutely necessary. Like when only one ally is taking all the damage.

edit: ty for confirming the nearest visable for us Nuke.

Considering the issue with "use item" I think relying on group assistance solves that issue before it arises.
also:
ally: hp <50%: Heal
triggers even if the caster is the only group member under 50% causing a self heal.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 08 April 2011 - 11:49 PM.

[JosieJ]

Hmm, I'm running a RogueHawk with Anders as the healer--I'm going to try this out right now! Thanks for the info!

[brazen_nl]

Oooh, that's a good point you make. Time to review my tactics!

[Sparks1013]

SuicidialBaby wrote...
Skip Tactics :
This little nugget of joy allows us to ignore any following tactics unless the condition set on skip tactics is met, forcing the list to start over.  This grants us the ability to remotely turn off all tactics at the end of combat in order to free up mana for the start of a new encounter as well as work tactics to our favor during combat.  In this case, conserving as much mana as possible while still being an offensive force, not just sitting idle as support bot.

I still don't understand the proper use of this mechanic. I also think you either worded your first sentence incorrectly, or this makes a fourth definition for skip tactics I've read people claiming to be true.

You're sentence says that any tactics listed under/after "skip tactics" will not work unless the skip tactics requirement is met. Which is actually counter-intuitive, making me think you worded it incorrectly. I have read..

-If the skip tactics condition is met then all tactics will cut off for the remainder of the current fight. (Seems a bit redonk but I suppose micromanagers will micromanage)

-If skip tactics then anything under/after that line will be ignored. (This is what I think you were trying to say)

-If skip tactics then only the next line after it will be ignored. (This seems the most logical to me, though I don't see why they wouldn't call it "skip next tactic" instead)

I also don't get your "free up mana for a new encounter" seeing as health/mana are instantly recovered after exiting combat.

Also there's this.. Copied directly from AreleX's DW Assassin guide..

Aveline (set to Aggressive)
Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use Stamina Draught
Self: Any - Activate: Might
Self: Any - Activate: Battle Synergy
Hawke: Any - Activate - Bodyguard
Ally: Health <75% - Taunt
Enemy: BRITTLE - Skip tactics[/u]
Enemy: Target of Aveline - Cleave
Self: Surrounded by at least three enemies - Activate: Shield Defense
Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Shield Defense
Enemy: BRITTLE - Rally
Enemy: BRITTLE - Skip tactics[/u]
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash

Unless there is some error here on his part, then he seems to be going by the "it skips the next tactic." Which is confusing since, as the first poster, he did nothing but grats you.

Not trying to flame or anything, I'd just really like someone to explain this and have some evidence on their side; or a developer jump in to explain things instead of just leaving this to be an enigma.

[SuicidalBaby]

-If skip tactics then anything under/after that line will be ignored. (This is what I think you were trying to say)

Is what I was attempting to convey. Youre right that I need to reword it.

I see what hes attempting to accomplish there, his second skip is just not functional. Placing BRITTLE: Rally before the first skip and removing the second skip tactics would fix that set-up.

As such:
Self: Health <25% - Use Potion
Self: Mana or stamina <10% - Use Stamina Draught
Self: Any - Activate: Might
Self: Any - Activate: Battle Synergy
Hawke: Any - Activate - Bodyguard
Ally: Health <75% - Taunt
Enemy: BRITTLE - Rally
Enemy: BRITTLE - Skip tactics
Enemy: Target of Aveline - Cleave
Self: Surrounded by at least three enemies - Activate: Shield Defense
Self: Surrounded by no enemies - Deactivate: Shield Defense
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Shield Bash

Freeing up mana for the next encounter means that any ability set to trigger prior to the activation of sustains will be used before the mana is simply lost via activation, increasing the effectiveness of your entire mana/stamina pool. So essentially gaining a free cast of Hex of Torment, Chain Lightning if STAGGER was applied fast enough, and Haste. All cast before your sustaind abilities consume the mana.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 08 April 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

After having run 3 full Nexus runs with the only reload coming when I had a "use item" tactic, I can say that this is the sole reason for the delay in the original set. The delay difference was as obvious as a newly soiled diaper hitting fresh air.

I controled Avaline or Isabela the entire fight with no pauses. The tactics used match the OP exactly.
It made Nexus a cake walk. Bellow Avaline didnt hurt the situation.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 08 April 2011 - 11:40 PM.

[Nukenin]

One problem here is that if your party is taking constant abuse, you'll be spending most of your time in Healing Aura waiting for Group Heal to come off cool down (even if it's just one person below 50%).

It'd be nice if there were some conditional to test an ability for cooldown (even if that ability was modal and you currently weren't in the prerequisite mode, a la Group Heal when Healing Aura is off).

[SuicidalBaby]

I did notice that on occasion, but it that can be remedied by micro during those very brief seconds. It doesnt really happen unless everything really goes wrong. But I can see your point. I want jump to go anywhere on the list not just up. Having a 'ability on cooldown' condition would be awesome. But Im really just trying to show how the mechanics work.

Im trying to think of a work around for that instance, besides making Anders mirror the build except with lower health % conditions.

what youre looking for would look like:

1. ally: hp <50%: Heal
2. self: hp <50%: deactivate: Elemental Weapons
3. ally: hp <50%: deactivate: Heroic Aura
4. ally: hp <50%: activate: Healing Aura
5. ally: hp <50%: Group Heal
6. self: any: deactivate: Healing Aura
7. enemy: target rank is elite or higher: Hex of Torment
8. enemy: STAGGERED: Chain Lightning
9. self: at least 5 enemies are alive: Haste
10. self: any: activate: Heroic Aura
11. self: any: activate: Elemental Weapons
12. self: any: activate: Summon Mabarii
13. self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
14. self: any: deactivate: Elemental Weapons

which causes a delay toward CCC Chain Lightning triggering, heh

note to reader: this is flawed theorycraft, do not use these tactics.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 09 April 2011 - 01:47 AM.

[Sylriel]

Suicidal, thanks for another great and informative thread.

A question. I notice that sometimes "Jump to Tactic" doesn't work for me. It is ignored. Did you any similar experience in your play through?

[Nukenin]

The tactics system can be pretty flexible, but yeah, they didn't think of everything.  (And it's annoying when we discover that some things like nearest rogue and nearest warrior don't seem to be working.)

I can't bring myself to use tactics for Hawke though.  He's the one I'm playing!