215 replies to this topic

[SuicidalBaby]

Sylriel wrote...
Suicidal,
A question.
I notice that sometimes "Jump to Tactic" doesn't work for me. It is ignored. Did you any similar experience in your play through?

If you change the order on any tactic it will remove the jump or just fail to work. To fix this, re-apply all of your tactics after you are done setting the order. Especially for 'set current condition for next tactic,' as simply draging another tactic through the chain will break the link of the two seperate entries.

I can't bring myself to use tactics for Hawke though.  He's the one I'm playing!

My Blood Mage tactics work faster than I can so I just let it fire off automatic while I control the battle from Avaline.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 09 April 2011 - 01:26 AM.

[Nukenin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

[…]
what youre looking for would look like:

1. ally: hp <50%: Heal
2. self: hp <50%: deactivate: Elemental Weapons
3. ally: hp <50%: deactivate: Heroic Aura
4. ally: hp <50%: activate: Healing Aura
5. ally: hp <50%: Group Heal
6. self: any: deactivate: Healing Aura
7. enemy: target rank is elite or higher: Hex of Torment
8. enemy: STAGGERED: Chain Lightning
9. self: at least 5 enemies are alive: Haste
10. self: any: activate: Heroic Aura
11. self: any: activate: Elemental Weapons
12. self: any: activate: Summon Mabarii
13. self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
14. self: any: deactivate: Elemental Weapons

which causes a delay toward CCC Chain Lightning triggering, heh

You'll run into that whenever you have tactics switching into and out of Healing Aura.

With the above tactics if Heal and  Group Heal are on cooldown (or more than one party member is below 50% and Group Heal is still on cooldown) you will waste a 10s Healing Aura cooldown activating it prematurely.  It'd immediately deactivate, then Hex and Chain will go off if applicable, then buff sustains will fire if they can, then those buff sustains will be canceled, then the process will repeat until Group Heal is off cooldown.

Ah well, it keeps mage Hawke's fingers waggling.  

[Nukenin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

if you change the order on any tactic it will remove the jump or just fail to work. To fix this, re-apply all of your tactics after you are done setting the order. Especially for 'set current condition for next tactic,' as simply draging another tactic through the chain will break the link of the two seperate entries.

This seems to be the same situation that causes Use Item: to get borked.  The tactic "Use Item:" or "Jump to:" is moved along with the condition, but the parameter (the item to be used or the jump target tactic respectively) fails to move with the tactic.

It's definitely annoying with Jump to:.

[SuicidalBaby]

should make activations self: party health 3 or more hp > 50%
I was about to edit that, but typing with ps3 controler is s....l.o....w.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 09 April 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[Nukenin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

My Blood Mage tactics work faster than I can so I just let it fire off automatic while I control the battle from Avaline.

Blood Mage.  Figures.  You like controlling others, doncha?!?  

[Sylriel]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Sylriel wrote...
Suicidal,
A question.
I notice that sometimes "Jump to Tactic" doesn't work for me. It is ignored. Did you any similar experience in your play through?

If you change the order on any tactic it will remove the jump or just fail to work. To fix this, re-apply all of your tactics after you are done setting the order. Especially for 'set current condition for next tactic,' as simply draging another tactic through the chain will break the link of the two seperate entries.

I can't bring myself to use tactics for Hawke though.  He's the one I'm playing!

My Blood Mage tactics work faster than I can so I just let it fire off automatic while I control the battle from Avaline.

I have noticed that changing order does remove the action part.

What I meant though is, with the tactic set up correctly, it will fire as it should most times but will not on some occasions.  I couldn't figure out a fix and have largely decided to ignore it.  I was just curious if you encountered a something similar.

Thanks again.

[SuicidalBaby]

I need an example to understand what it is causing "occasional" failure.
The accuracy of your example will directly impact the quality of my response.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 09 April 2011 - 01:36 AM.

[Nukenin]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

should make activations ally: hp > 50%
I was about to edit that, but typing with ps3 controler is s....l.o....w.

Heh, I have the little keypad that clips to the controller, but with my fat fingers, I wonder sometimes if I see much difference.

Ally: HP > 50% will of course fire if any party member is above 50% health, so it doesn't really help.  Yes, the tactics system could use a "NOT" operator as well.    (E.g. NOT (Ally: Health < 50%)).

I think with a no-pause playstyle these little issues aren't really in your face so much ("why isn't Hawke…?") as they are an afterthought ("why didn't Hawke…?").  In the end, if you're making it through fights, the tactics in play must be good enough.  

Edited by Nukenin, 09 April 2011 - 01:36 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Yeah, I mean that issue didnt come up till the 3rd round of healing. I would always fire off Shield Bash for CCC after Group Heal hit so everything would be on cooldown anyway. Most other fights end before a shot at 2 rounds of healing.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 09 April 2011 - 01:42 AM.

[Sylriel]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I need an example to understand what it is causing "occasional" failure.
The accuracy of your example will directly impact the quality of my response.

Hey, Suicidal.

Thank you for helping me look into this.  I apologize for the delay in responding to you, I was away for the weekend.

Below is my Tactics setup for my level 23 Pariah Blood Merrill along with her Spell listing.  It is a rushed setup and is not fully optimized and it is taken from my current mage Nightmare playthrough.  I am currently testing out a few things for my own amusements.  Also, pure vanilla - no respeccing done at all on myself or any companions.

Merrill - Dalish Pariah focus (40 Mag/50 Con)
1.  Self: Health >=50% - Activate: Blood of the First
2.  Self: Health <25% - Deactivate: Blood of the First
3.  Self: Health <25% - Use: Health Potion
4.  Self: Health >=25% - Jump to 7
5.  Self: Being attacked by melee attack - Mind Blast
6.  Hawke: Any - Stone's Throw
7.  Self: Any - Activate: Rock Armor
8.  self: Any - Activate: Wrath of the Elvhen
9.  Self: Any - Elemental Weapons
10.  Enemy: STAGGERED - Chain Lightning
11.  Self: surrounded by at least 3 enemies - Ensnare
12.  Enemy: Health <10% - Walking Bomb
13.  Enemy: Target Rank is Normal or lower - Jump to 17
14.  Enemy: STAGGERED - Crushing Prison
15.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Hex of Torment
16.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Petrify
17.  Enemy: Clustered with atleast 3 enemies - Tempest
18.  Enemy: Clustered with at least 3 enemies - Wounds of the Past
19.  Enemy: Attacking Aveline - Stonefist

Spell list - not taken in this order
1.  Hex of Torment -
2.  Stonefist -
3. Golem's Fist
4.  Rock Armor -
5.  Chain Lightning -
6.  Chain Reaction
7.  Tempest -
8.  Petrify -
9.  Dessicate
10.  Galvanism
11.  Mind Blast -
12.  Elemental Weapons -
13.  Crushing Prison -
14.  Paralyzing Prison
15.  Blood of the First -
16.  Wrath of the Elvhen -
17.  Ensnare -
18.  Arlathan's Grace
19.  Wounds of the Past -
20.  Stone's Throw -
21.  Deep Wounds
22.  Spirit Bolt -
23.  Walking Bomb

There are 2 "Jump to" commands, one at 4 and another at 13.  They
usually work.

6.  Hawke: Any - Stone's Throw

This is not supposed to fire off while her health is above 25%.  It has a few times even with health almost full.

15.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Hex of Torment
16.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Petrify

These should be skipped on enemies that are normal ranked or below.  Sometimes they are not.

Of course, this is all based on what I think I khow of the Tactics mechanics since Bioware chose not to give us a manual.

Also note that I chose not to use the "Use current condition for next tactic" command.  I've read on the board that it doesn't really work so I haven't been using for any of my setups.

Anyway, that's pretty much it.  Tell me what you think.

Edited by Sylriel, 11 April 2011 - 09:09 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

For those reading this for the first time, be aware that the tactics involving "jump to tactic" jump to the # - 1.
This was also written prior to patch 1.02. Affecting the manner in which "enemy: rank" is understood.

One of the issues that I have come to notice involve the speed at which tactics with many health checks which include,
"use: item," tend to either be slow because they are forced to check & recheck constantly or cause breakdowns in the designed path, allowing any tactic to be simply ignored as if it was not there at all. This results in the occasional misfiring of certain commands which lack stringent conditions.

we will start with this:
4.  Self: Health >=25% - Jump to 7
5.  Self: Being attacked by melee attack - Mind Blast
6.  Hawke: Any - Stone's Throw
7.  Self: Any - Activate: Rock Armor

You only want Mind Blast if shes under attack and under 25%. This is counter intuitive as if she Mind Blasts prior to 25% she drops threat levels and knocks things back/down. This is better off dealing with the problem before it causes damage rather than after.

Stone's Throw needs to be controlled by 2 conditions directly because it has a targeting protocol and you want it to fire when a specific condition is met.
self: hp <25%: use as condition for next tactic - condition
Hawke: any: Stone's Throw - target

use as condition for next tactic is only troublesome when dealing with enemies for lack of specific sub conditions, where as Merrill's self is just Merrill and Hawke is Hawke.

The issue with the second jump stems from the same problem as set conditions does with enemy targets. To control this we use skip tactics in much the same way as the healing lesson. Ill go into that later at full extent.
For now:
13.  Enemy: Target Rank is Normal or lower - Jump to 17
14.  Enemy: STAGGERED - Crushing Prison
15.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Hex of Torment
16.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Petrify
17.  Enemy: Clustered with atleast 3 enemies - Tempest

Now what you need to understand is that the game looks at 13 and checks if there are any enemies of normal or lower, this becomes an exclusionary condition when used in this manner. If that condition is met, it jumps. If there are just elites or higher it will proceed down the list because you told it to. Because of jump being x-1, 16's condition fires regardless of rank because it does not have limitation besides Avaline's target, which could be Hawke if Avaline is confused, rank isn't checked because you didnt force it. It's an all or nothing situation.

try this:
1. self: hp <25%: deactivate: Blood of the First
2. self: hp <25%: use Elfroot Potion
3. self: being attacked by melee attack: Mind Blast
4. self: hp <25%: use as condition for next tactic
5. Hawke: any: Stone's Throw
6. self: hp >50%: activate: Blood of the First
7. enemy: STAGGERED: jump to tactic 20
8. enemy: attacking Hawke: Stonefist
9. enemy: hp <10%: Walking Bomb
10. enemy: rank is elite or higher: Hex of Torment
11. enemy: rank is elite or higher: Petrify
12. enemy: clustered w/ 3 enemies: Tempest
13. enemy: clustered w/ 3 enemies: Wounds of the Past
14. self: surrounded by at least 3 enemies: Ensnare
15. self: any: activate: Rock Armor
16. self: any: activate: Wrath of the Elvhen
17. self: any: activate: Elemental Weapons
18. self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
19. enemy: rank is elite or higher: Crushing Prison - *actual jump destination*
20. enemy: staggered: Chain Lightning

Granted you could use the same number of tactics with "use condition for next tactic" on CPrison. I just find this cleaner and more welcoming to a BM/Force Hawke, where you could drop in Makers Fist or Hemorrage if you had them. You could buy yourself 3 tactics by manually activating those sustains since you run with Blood Magic on the whole time. Stonfist is poor dps so utility to protect Hawke or your rogue is a better use of it.

2 schools of thought on STAGGER:
Control who you apply stagger to and reap the most efficiency out of the spell or
Hit everything, hope for a good clump of enemies to get staggered at the same time for CCC, if you only get 1, oh well.

Now since you employ Avaline this makes things easier with tactics like:
enemy: elite or higher: Shield Bash / Pommel Strike
self: surrounded by at least 3 enemies: use condition for next tactic
enemy: normal or higher: Shield Bash

Allowing for control over which rank gets the stagger first preventing the situation where a normal is staggered and Crushing Prison fires off on an elite who lacks stagger. If you're curious, this happens either way you set it up. Each condition is seperate to itself, even when linked, when it concerns enemies. You must assume every tactic has an "any" infront of it in addition to its condition.
enemy: (any) STAGGER: use condition for next tactic
enemy: (any) elite or higher: Crushing Prison

Any target can be staggered which allows the next tactic to search independent of the first condition. Meaning any elite or higher will have Crushing Prison cast on it regardless of it being staggered or not.

I hope this helps.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 16 May 2011 - 02:27 AM.

[Joy Divison]

^^^ That is an excellent post.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Has anyone else noticed tactics ignore modal requirements or restrictions? Anders will still cast offensive spells in Panacea via tactics, or Aid Allies while Panacea is disabled, and Merrill will cast Wounds of the Past while Blood of the first is not active. I can't confirm anything other than Anders and Merrill though.

[SuicidalBaby]

Yeah devs are aware of that.

[Sylriel]

Thank you for a great and informative reply, Suicidal!

SuicidialBaby wrote...

One of the issues that I have come to notice involve the speed at which tactics with many health checks which include use: item tend to either be slow because they are forced to  check & recheck constantly or cause breakdowns in the designed path, allowing any tactic to be simply ignored as if it was not there at all. This results in the occasional misfiring of certain commands which lack stringent conditions.

well start with this:
4.  Self: Health >=25% - Jump to 7
5.  Self: Being attacked by melee attack - Mind Blast
6.  Hawke: Any - Stone's Throw
7.  Self: Any - Activate: Rock Armor

You only want Mind Blast if shes under attack and under 25%. This is counter intuitive as if she Mind Blasts prior to 25% she drops threat levels and knocks things back/down. 
This is better off dealing with the problem before it causes damage rather than after.

The set up for Mind Blast was actually intentional.  I wanted her in the middle of battle to take advantage of Wrath of the Elvhen and Ensnare while her hp is above 25%.

I don't want her to lose her group of admirers unless her hp drops below 25%.  Her hp is 369.  It's higher than Aveline's 313.  She's more resilient than Aveline.

Stone Throw and Mind Blast are really just a last resort, panic kind of thing for her.  I just found it strange when she suddenly appears next to me once in a while even when her health is nearly full.

My Mind Blast setup  - bad idea?

Stone's Throw needs to be controlled by 2 conditions directly because it has a targeting protocol and you want it to fire when a specific condition is met.
self: hp <25%: use as condition for next tactic - condition
Hawke: any: Stone's Throw - target

use as condition for next tactic is only troublesome when dealing with enemies for lack of specific sub conditions, where as Merrill's self is just Merrill and Hawke is Hawke.

Thank you for the explanation on "Use as condition for next tactic".  It definitely clears things up a lot for me.  I have been staying away from it.  I will start using it on self and party members.

The issue with the second jump stems from the same problem as set conditions does with enemy targets. To control this we use skip tactics in much the same way as the healing lesson. Ill go into that later at full extent.
For now:
13.  Enemy: Target Rank is Normal or lower - Jump to 17
14.  Enemy: STAGGERED - Crushing Prison
15.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Hex of Torment
16.  Enemy: Target of Aveline - Petrify
17.  Enemy: Clustered with atleast 3 enemies - Tempest

Now what you need to understand is that the game looks at 13 and checks if there are only enemies of normal or lower. If that condition is met, no elites or higher visable, then it jumps. If there is 1 elite or higher it will proceed down the list because you told it to. After that, any condition fires regardless of rank because those conditions dont have limitations besides stagger and Avalines target, which could be Hawke if Avaline is confused, rank isn't checked because you didnt force it. It's an all or nothing situation.

Interesting.  And quite frankly, I should have known this.  I guess sometimes it takes having someone explain things to know what we already should.

Thank you.  Now it actually makes sense.  I’ve been stuck with trying to figure it out for so long, I somewhat gave up on it for a while.

I see you are absolutely right.

try this:
<snip> Merrill’s Tactics

Granted you could use the same number of tactics with "use condition for next tactic" on CPrison. I just find this cleaner and more welcoming to a BM/Force Hawke, where you could drop in Makers Fist or Hemorrage if you had them. You could buy yourself 3 tactics by manually activating those sustains since you run with Blood Magic on the whole time. Stonfist is poor dps so utility to protect Hawke or your rogue is a better use of it.

2 schools of thought on STAGGER:
Control who you apply stagger to and reap the most efficiency out of the spell or
Hit everything, hope for a good clump of enemies to get staggered at the same time for CCC, if you only get 1 oh well.

Now since you employ Avaline this makes things easier with tactics like:
enemy: elite or higher: Shield Bash / Pommel Strike
self: surrounded by at least 3 enemies: use condition for next tactic
enemy: normal or higher: Shield Bash

allowing for control over which rank gets the stagger first preventing the situation where a normal is staggered and crushing prison fires off on an elite who lacks stagger. If youre curious, this happens either way you set it up. Each condition is seperate to itself, even when linked, when it concerns enemies. You must assume every tactic has an "any" infront of it in addition to its condition.
enemy: (any) STAGGER: use condition for next tactic
enemy: (any) elite or higher: Crushing Prison

any target can be staggered which allows the next tactic to search independent of the first condition. Meaning any elite or higher will have Crushing Prison cast on it regardless of it being staggered or not.

I hope this helps.

It helps a great deal!  I like your Tactics setup suggestion.  I just finished playing through the last half of Act 3 on Nightmare with it.  I am currently playing with an Elemental/BM/Force Mage with Heal.

I did remove the sustain activations and did them manually.  They do not get turned off anyway.  I made similar changes to all my other companions.

And I did give Mind Blast the “self: hp <25%: use as condition for next tactic” as Stone’s Throw.  As I asked above… do you think it’s a bad idea?

Thank you very much for the great information.  I learned a lot from it.  And thank you for your help.  It is truly appreciated.

[SuicidalBaby]

Mind blast can be used at any time for your situation, try <50/75% hp with secondary conditon of being surrounded by X or more. You're still just looking to reduce damage for a moment and this still allows MB to be up later when you really need it to be triggered and will still work in the same manner.   She is still using Ensnare while surrounded by X enemies to get off burst dps in short range, this simply reduces overall incoming damage. 

You could also use Stone's Throw to move to Avaline and manually taunt or work with Battle Synergy to allow her to pick up threat and spreading out the tanking workload, this can include Bodyguard tactics where Merrill is at a certain health. Unless, of course, you are playing on nightmare and your Avaline has full tactics toward Assault/Scatter then ignore that suggestion.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 12 April 2011 - 07:53 PM.

[Sylriel]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Mind blast can be used at any time for your situation, try <50/75% hp with secondary conditon of being surrounded by X or more. You're still just looking to reduce damage for a moment and this still allows MB to be up later when you really need it to be triggered and will still work in the same manner.   She is still using Ensnare while surrounded by X enemies to get off burst dps in short range, this simply reduces overall incoming damage. 

You could also use Stone's Throw to move to Avaline and manually taunt or work with Battle Synergy to allow her to pick up threat and spreading out the tanking workload, this can include Bodyguard tactics where Merrill is at a certain health. Unless, of course, you are playing on nightmare and your Avaline has full tactics toward Assault/Scatter then ignore that suggestion.

Great suggestions.  Very good idea on the Mind Blast.  I will use that.  Thanks.

I do send Merrill into the fray manually, and usually using Stone's Throw to Aveline.  Aveline is setup to use Battle Synergy upgraded to Fearless Synergy.

My group make up on my recent Nightmare runs has been Aveline and Merrill as the focal points with me and Varric at range.  Of course what usually happens when facing large mobs is one group surrounds the ladies while I control another with Gravitic Ring and dishing out elemental/blood damage.

Thanks again, Suicidal!  You've been a great help and I have enjoyed learning from you. 

[SuicidalBaby]

Anytime.

[rabbitchannel]

Wouldn't it be the same if I replaced 2 with 12-14?

[SuicidalBaby]

Im going to assume you are asking about the first lesson.

I set that path in order to give a specific example of the jump tactic. It has a side effect of reducing over all tactic delay by not forcing each tactic to check health levels more than twice each rundown if it is not absolutely necessary. The delay can be quite problematic on slower computers & consoles especially.

So, to answer your question, yes you can. But, it will cause higher delays when reading tactics. Resulting in slower activation of time sensitive conditions on certain abilities, like enemy: staggered: Chain Lightning. The stagger only lasts a short amount of time, giving your tactics a limited window in which to fire. Couple this with staff attack animation delay and what precious time you did have shrinks even further.

contextual note :
I have since edited the jump to include the deactivation of Elemental Weapons in order to conserve another 20% mana effectively. (application of 10% sustained ability + use of unwasted 10% mana)

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 13 April 2011 - 12:00 AM.

[rabbitchannel]

Hmm that makes sense. Btw, have you found a tactic for long duration poisons and potions? The problem with Enemy: Target Ranked: Boss or higher -> Use Item: Debilitating Poison, I assume, is that with a 30 minute duration and very low cool down, the user would be applying poisons even though the previous one was still in effect, right?

[SuicidalBaby]

correct, manual application of poisons is suggested.

[LazyBoy]

hi guys. great post.
btw. i write this bec found issue with HP pots after patch 1.02. Now my "pets" Aveline do not use HP pots in any situation. Game on PC.

I make som tests and and know when it happen, example:

A) Enemy: Nearest - Attack (or Target of Hawke - Attack)
Self < XX% - use HP pot

that tactics doesnt work - any form of attack in tactics block using HP pot.

Edited by LazyBoy, 14 April 2011 - 08:08 PM.

[Zachriel]

LazyBoy wrote...

hi guys. great post.
btw. i write this bec found issue with HP pots after patch 1.02. Now my "pets" do not use HP pots in any situation. Game on PC. Anyone have the same?

Nope.  My companions are still chugging their potions when they're supposed to. (I also play on PC)

[SuicidalBaby]

LazyBoy wrote...

hi guys. great post.
btw. i write this bec found issue with HP pots after patch 1.02. Now my "pets" Aveline do not use HP pots in any situation. Game on PC.

I make som tests and and know when it happen, example:

A ) Enemy: Nearest - Attack (or Target of Hawke - Attack)
B ) Self < XX% - use HP pot

that tactics doesnt work - any form of attack in tactics block using HP pot.

That tactic will never work because the enemy: tactic takes priority over the self: tactic.  In order for the B ) self: tactic to fire, the condition of tactic A must cease to exist or have its triggering effect be on cooldown. 

Since "Attack" is never on cooldown, you have created a permanent condition.

Using "enemy: nearest: attack" anywhere in your tactics is redundant when using Aggressive or Ranged behaviors as both of those will do so regardless.  If you are going to use an Attack effect, use it through conditions that would set a priority case attack structure:

enemy: attacking Hawke: attack --/--  enemy: target of Hawke: Attack
enemy: attacking Anders: attack
enemy: attacking Varric: attack

That way all attacks are against targets attacking other people or the singular target of the PC, leaving the person attacking free from attack untill it pulls threat, then they will switch targets.  You will want such structures at the end of your tactics so they will use any other tactic before ending in this controlled situation.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 16 June 2014 - 11:28 AM.