215 réponses à ce sujet

[herwin1]

I've been working through your comments and have a few responses.

I understand why Hawke needs rebuilding from a play perspective, especially as the Archer tree appears to be nerfed. From a role-playing perspective, he's supposed to be a leader and a spook--hence Shadow. He's not a killer, hence not an Assassin. The game doesn't allow him to use some of the skills I would otherwise develop in say, Skyrim. The bow skills are used to allow him to intervene elsewhere on the battlefield, but he's mostly a DW rogue. I'm dropping Disorienting Shot as I understand it is broken. I'm keeping the bow skills that exploit BRITTLE as Merrill can generate it. I'm trained in the Japanese dai-to, and I think some of that flavour lives in the Duelist tree, so I'm developing that.

The Aveline changes are minimal. Doesn't require respecing the character.

The Anders changes convert him into secondarily crowd-control/supporter. That's good.

The Merrill changes focus her better. I'll follow up.

I'll post the revised characters later for the curious.

[tristax78]

With the latest patch (today for us Xbox users) does the Jump to Tactic option now work properly or is it still minus 1? The only change I saw in the patch notes was that items no longer disappear from their respective tactic.

[Moenrg]

I haven't found many setups for Isabela (excluding yours). While I know she's not nearly as good as Varric, I find her quotes just too good to pass up. The build where she attempts to control aggro like Varric is good, but I prefer a more sneaky build for her. She seems to last longer when she looks out for herself (how appropriate). Perhaps you could look at this build:

Tactics:
Self Health <25% - Use Health/Elfroot potion
Self Stamina <10% - use stamina Potion
Self any - Precision or speed
Health <50% - Savvy
Self Surrounded by 4 enemies - Evade
Self being Attacked by Melee or Ranged - Stealth
Enemy Clustered with 4 - All Hands
Aveline Clustered with 3 enemies - Chameleon's breath
Enemy attack Isabela - use next tactic
Aveline Any - Back to Back
Enemy Staggered - Use next tactic
Enemy rank Elite or higher - Explosive Strike
Enemy rank Elite or higher - Twin Fangs
Enemy attacking Aveline - Backstab
Enemy attacking Aveline - attack
Health => 90% - deactivate Savvy
Self 1 enemy alive - Skip Tactics
Self Any - Deactivate Savvy
Self Any - Deactivate Precision

If I lack slots I just don't bother with turning off Savvy and Precision/Speed (or just leave Precision/Speed on)

Talents:
1. Evade
2. Backstab
3. Unforgiving Chain
4. Explosive Strike
5. Stealth
6. Subtlety
7. Ambush
8. Lingering Shroud
9. Chameleon's Breath
10. Precision (speed also works here)
Tome - Merciless Strike
11. Twin Fangs
12. Murder
13. Reverse Grip
14. Savvy
15. Across the Bow
16. Experienced Hand
17. Sea Legs
18. All Hands on Deck
19. Blindside
20. Back to Back
21. Follow Through
22. Twist the knife
23+ upgrade Savvy, All Hands, Chameleon's Breath

Stats:
Obviously get Dex and Cunning to 40, I prefer to get Constitution and wisdom up to 15 by the end of act 1, 18 to 20 for act 2 and 22 to 25 for act 3 (before the rune of valence).

Items:
Most anything to 1) Boost her stats, 2) Speed up her attacks, 3) Add Health and 4) Add Stamina

This build runs with Aveline (obviously) and a Healer mage (Hawke or Anders) and works well with Varric. Watching her backstab a entire group that has just been pulled together with 'pull of the abyss' or paralized is rather funny.

[SuicidalBaby]

Thanks for posting.

I have a few ideas for the build:
I wouldnt take Follow Through or Twist the knife.
Follow Through is being made redundant with the improvement to rogue stam regen in this patch.
Twist the knife isnt adding anything to this build.
I would find greater value with Invisible Friend and Brand since its receiving a huge upgrade to 25%.

Lacerate is now extremely mandatory in all DW rogue builds. 100% chance on staggered targets for an additional 100% of damage delt over the next 5 seconds through 2 ticks.

I never used savvy as it cut her damage, which is basically her job.

The patch may bring about stealth tree builds for her, I have yet to test it.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 juin 2011 - 08:44 .

[Moenrg]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. You're right about Follow Through and I'll remove it when the patch comes out. I haven't tried Lacerate very much, removing Twist the Knife frees up some room and Aveline staggers a lot of enemies. I'll add it in.

Savvy works as a last ditch effort when evade/stealth is on cooldown. She only seems to use it on the hardest fights and turns if off once the tide has turned. I will look at reducing it to health <25% and see if she still stays alive. Good points.

Modifié par Moenrg, 01 juin 2011 - 09:46 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Lacerate has been crap, its only good after patch.
IMO, Invisible friend trumps evade, mobility and stealth packed in 1 ability.

Are you using Battle Synergy with Aveline to increase damage resistances and threat?

[Moenrg]

Yes, Isabela works best with Aveline heavily invested in the Battlemaster tree. Aveline is the queen of sustains and the heart of any mage setup. I use your setup suggestions in the blood mage compendium with some minor changes. I run hawke as either a spirit healer/force mage, with heavy investment in the primal and creation tree (stand around and watch my companions kill everything) or a Primal/Entropy/force killing machine (that needs anders to provide the heavy healing).

Sadly as a rogue or warrior Isabela is not useful, she can only provide dps no real spike damage. Hawke is light years better than her.

[Sabotin]

Anyone else having problems with debuffing targeted elites after the patch?

Target of Hawke -> Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy rank elite or higher -> Use ability x

Like this the companions are ignoring the target part and just debuff random elites. Inverted they debuff my target when any elites are arround.

[frustratemyself]

@ Sabotin I've had the problem today when trying to get Varric to use Brand with those conditions. Tried it with target of Hawke as the first condition, then again as the second condition.
As far as I could tell he seemed to be ignoring the first condition and just using the ability based on the second condition. Not sure what's going on there.

[AreleX]

Varric's been able to throw out Brand just fine (I used it on the ARW) so far. I was using:

Enemy: Health <75% - Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Brand

Haven't tried it under any other conditions, though. He, however, flat-out REFUSED to use Pinning Shot on the ARW, no matter HOW I set his tactics up, so I'm wondering if that's somehow bugged now, or something.

[SuicidalBaby]

unfortunately I still dont have access to the patch, so if anyone else can confirm this breakdown across multiple abilities it would be appreciated

[Ernie4711]

I was using

Target of Controlled Party Member -> Use current condition for next tactic
Enemy rank elite or higher -> Brand

and - like Sabotin experienced - Brand would be casted on a random elite when available.

They should really change the behaviour of "Use current condition for next tactic" to an "AND" condition and that not only limited to the "rank" condition. That would change alot to the better!

Another issue of the current tactic system is that the jump condition would not save the target.
I'd really like something like this to work for a tank build (not working in V1.03).

1 : Enemy: Attacking Merril : Jump to x
2 : Enemy: Attacking Anders : Jump to x
3 : Enemy: Attacking ... : Jump to x
...
x : Target Any : Shield bash <- these lines would attack the target which cause the jump
x+1 : Target Any : Attack

I know you intend the thread to explain the current tactic system as it is but I hope a little rant is allowed here

This thread is the best source to the tactic system I found so far. Kudo's for it!

[siubosn]

Is it possible for Suicidal or Arelex to write a tactic guide for me to use with the 2hander Vanguard/Berserker style? I've read tactics for everyone else but I don't see Hawke, or I just been missing it. I'm re-specking so I could really use some guidance here please.) So far I've been playing by the seat of my pants and an almost done w/ act 2 and having played all the DA games I just don't have a clue about tactics!!
TY in advance for the help!!

[Sabotin]

Well tactics are there for companions, so you can control exclusively Hawke, so noone writes a guide for his tactics.

[SuicidalBaby]

I could if given a base model. I dont play 2h or warrior for that matter.

I would suggest you use some of the fenris setups as a reference for certain abilities, not a direct copy.

The problem lies with the fact that 2h pc abilities just dont work well from tactics, unlike the speed at which a pc mage will. It really is best to control that character type directly..

[siubosn]

kk makes sense but shouldn't there be something to fall back on-IE when switching to control another toon momentarily otherwise Hawke just stands there if she has nothing to guide her by, right? I think am i on the right track with that thought?

[AreleX]

You shouldn't need anything more than controlling Hawke if your tactics are good enough.

As Suicidal said, it's much easier to leave a Mage to tactics than it is a Warrior, due to the way you have to play both classes. Setting Mage Hawke to tactics would actually be FASTER than controlling it on your own, most likely, but there are too many things to Warrior that can make it quickly go errant in the hands of the computer.

[SuicidalBaby]

siubosn wrote...

kk makes sense but shouldn't there be something to fall back on-IE when switching to control another toon momentarily otherwise Hawke just stands there if she has nothing to guide her by, right? I think am i on the right track with that thought?

run the necessities

self: hp <10% : use Health Poultice
enemy: status: BRITTLE: Mighty Blow
ally: mana/stamina <25%: Rally
enemy: target at short range: Cleave
self: surrounded by 3 enemies: Taunt
self: stamina <25%: Bolster
enemy: attacking Anders: Attack
enemy: attacking Hawke: Attack

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 05 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[siubosn]

thanks guys n gals that helps me understand better. ill set up Anders, Varrick and Merril according to your guides and just through in some basics for warrior Hawke. just for when i need to take over one of my other toons for a min. or 2. Also I didn't know that the toon you are controlling the tactics are essentially off while playing that toon.
Again TY for your Time and effort. On another note Arelex can't wait for you to have the time for the new builds for the rest of the party YEA!!

[tonnactus]

Is the problem with heal and the dog fixed now?

[SuicidalBaby]

It has been a pleasure to assist this community. Goodbye

[Relix28]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

It has been a pleasure to assist this community. Goodbye

Don't go man. 
Without your indepth knowledge and this excellent thread of yours, a lot of us would prolly still be using the crappy default set of tactics and using that as refernce for future builds, wich would definitelly result in a lesser experience(s).
Well, if you are going for good, I just wanted to say thank you for all your efforts and time spent here on the forums trying to explain the tactics mechanics to all of us interested in something more than just the basic stuff the game has to offer. I know that you certainly helped me understand it better, so once again, thank you.

[Ernie4711]

This is sad news. Be safe man!

[SuicidalBaby]

Open for business. If you need help, just ask.

[TheBigMatt90]

Cannot find the tactic Self: Aveline being attacked:

Can anyone point me to where it is, I play on pc.

Also, thanks very much for the effort you have put into this guide, you smartypants you. It really is excellent, the tactics seem slightly different to DA:O so it is a fantastic place to get a good understanding of them.

Modifié par TheBigMatt90, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:30 .