493 réponses à ce sujet

[1Minsc1]

kylecouch wrote...

alperez wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Exactly...the difference between Cerberus and Ashely is 1...Cerberus IS actually raceist...and 2...Ashely dont lie to herself about her viewpoint.
And yes...it shows how Gimli has changed as a character...because he thought Galadrial was the most beautiful creature he ever saw and swore he would take those 3 hairs she gave him and encase them in crystal once he returned to Erabor to immoralize that beauty. So I think it's safe to say he didn't hate elves anymore lol.

See thats the thing i don't get how people can demonise Ash as a racist based on a couple of things she says without fully playing out the arc where her view can be challenged and changed. She has a genuine distrust bordering on dislike of aliens that once you confront her about she can change and start to challenge how she has viewed aleins up until then.
Once you do this her character changes (evident in some scenes with Wrex, Garrus and esp, in the scene with Terra Firma) wheras at no point in me2 does Cerberus ever question their viewpoint. Sure they agree to appease Shepard and let Shepard do things his/her way but they never accept that the position they hold is wrong or even that it could be.
But the Ash haters still demonise her and accept that cerberus may have a proper viewpoint, i don't know if thats ironic or simply moronic.
As for the Gimli parallel, its there for all to see if you wish to look for it, but some people no matter what won't even bother to take the time to see it. i'm glad that at least there is someone who does.

It is indeed sad...considering Ashely distrusts aliens for a logical reason, that reason being they aren't human and will therefor always save their own race first if s*** hits the fan. Which honestly is how pretty much any person would behave...except Jake Sulley but thats beside the point. Her example with the bear and the dog is true...any human would do the same to save themselves...that does not make someone a racist they simplely consider themselves as a human more important than their dog as they would simply get another dog afterwards. Why? because dogs are not as important as a human life to many people.
Whereas Cerberus does everything in it's power to ensure they frame, screw over, and overall ****** off as many aliens as possible.

I'm 100% sure i read this in an interview with Chris E'toile, but i can't find the page. He also said that all other "beings" have the same attitude. It's not my opinion (Paragon, treat all equal...) but it is not racist.
Also, i wonder if BW had seen this "discussion" about "Ashs racism" coming or not. I think it's good that people are aware of racism and denie it, i'm sure i'm not the only one. So BW created a great character and was not able to do this in a non misunderstandable way (i.e. the dog/bear)? Do they want to find out how far they can go? Or do they just want to heat a discussion? On Cerberus it is quite the way round (right words?). Unethical goals (? i think so) and methods but a lot of players just think "the end justifies the means". So it was clear that some players be ******, when BW switched Cerberus from ME2 to ME3. Switching Cerberus could be just marketing, we all want to know why TIM is after Shep. 

Do you mean you would sacrifice another race to save the human?

And to Gimli and Legolas... Comparing the books to the films shows the problems of streamlining. I like the films, i really do. But the can't transport how deep Tolkiens thoughts were. So, in the movies, Gimli became nearly a clown and Legolas a SuperSpiderman. Remember that scene where Gimli tries to ride a horse or at helms deep, the ollifant etc. So why read the books, when i can comfortably watch the movies?
Perhaps there is a parallel to Ash, player are not willing to get her know so the turn to the typical "girls need a hero characters". And Miranda, she is also an interesting character i think, but why turn most of the player to her...

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 11 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[TheRevanchist]

1Minsc1 wrote...


I'm 100% sure i read this in an interview with Chris E'toile, but i can't find the page. He also said that all other "beings" have the same attitude. It's not my opinion (Paragon, treat all equal...) but it is not racist.
Also, i wonder if BW had seen this "discussion" about "Ashs racism" coming or not. I think it's good that people are aware of racism and denie it, i'm sure i'm not the only one. So BW created a great character and was not able to do this in a non misunderstandable way (i.e. the dog/bear)? Do they want to find out how far they can go? Or do they just want to heat a discussion? On Cerberus it is quite the way round (right words?). Unethical goals (? i think so) and methods but a lot of players just think "the end justifies the means". So it was clear that some players be ******, when BW switched Cerberus from ME2 to ME3. Switching Cerberus could be just marketing, we all want to know why TIM is after Shep. 

Do you mean you would sacrifice another race to save the human?

And to Gimli and Legolas... Comparing the books to the films shows the problems of streamlining. I like the films, i really do. But the can't transport how deep Tolkiens thoughts were. So, in the movies, Gimli became nearly a clown and Legolas a SuperSpiderman. Remember that scene where Gimli tries to ride a horse or at helms deep, the ollifant etc. So why read the books, when i can comfortably watch the movies?
Perhaps there is a parallel to Ash, player are not willing to get her know so the turn to the typical "girls need a hero characters". And Miranda, she is also an interesting character i think, but why turn most of the player to her...

I never once musunderstood Ashely as a raceist...my mind was perfectly capable of understanding what she said...and it's true really...when I said humans I was talking the the other races as well. Members of a certin specises will always think their own race more important when trouble comes...which is why Ashley distrusts them...because she knows they will not always be allies. And honestly despite my intense hatred of Bioware for the ****** poor quality of the scene does the Horizen scene not prove how she dissaproves of Cerberus and of racist viewpoints? Everyone wants to blame Ashely and call her a blinded moron and dump her on the spot for the Horizen scene...but I refuse to blame the character for the shoddy quality the writers provided.

[alperez]

The other problem with is not understanding that Ash's personal history also directly influences how she sees aliens in general. She blames them for what happened to her grandfather and if you or i were in the same position we probably would feel the same.

Bioware did go as far as to address this in how a paragon shepard interacts with Ash but the thing is that for some reason people just decided to not paragon the character, again its something i don't get because if you take Garrus and don't paragon his character he suddenly becomes very shallow and one dimensional.

One other thing is that the horizon encounter (badly written though it is) also proves the point that for a racist Ash really doesn't fit the part. A racist pro human aliens be damned character which is what some people claim Ash to be would really have had no problem working with cerberus and yet Ash refuses.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Yep Ash isn't a racist she has a life that supports why she feel that way. I know someone who is a close case with her however unlike her he spouts off about how much the race he hates is abunch of BSers and evil and how they're constantly screwing his race over yet....he keeps getting attracted to the race he supposedly hates he picks and chooses when and which component of the race he dislikes apparently. (shrugs) His childhood supports his views he was hurt, picked on, and so forth by this race setting up his negative views. It's understandable for him but unlike Ash no one will be able to make him see what he thinks is going on and what is now going on is not the same as when he was young. The world has changed and he has not. The difference between these two people is slight but Ash can be made to see there is a change in the world and the past she knew as a child has changed she can accept that work with the aliens and move on.

I bet if Ash had to she would lay her life down for an alien. I couldn't say the same about the man I described above. Hell at Virmire she stays with the salarians at the tower sure you could claim the game wrote it that way but I can't help but wonder if it was life if she truly didn't give a **** she'd run away and get to the ship but she doesn't.

Ash is a complicated character and her complication is good it adds to her character and while she's not my LI and I really don't think she's spector material I can relate to her. I can sympathise and understand her, her family has been hurt by the Turian/Human war and the hurt keeps coming it never has faded sense her grandfather she is reminded of the person's mistake every time she tries to get a higher rank, everytime she runs into anyone who holds prejudice of the other side, its an on going thing in her life and with para shep she starts to change her mind.

I like the fact that Humans and Turians still can't let go of the war I like the fact there are those hold outs who still see the world as it was then its not true in reality however they're too blind to see that but it makes it clear some wounds just never fully heal and others refuse to let their wounds heal. It makes them all realistic and for a game to have such internal turmoil is rare.

Shep gets alittle of the back lash if you killed the council. But really the only one in the whole game who hates you because it's you is that face of steel reporter. The only person I think could potentially be a racist to shep would be Garrus's dad he hates humans and he hates spector precisely because they exist if this would be the case I kind of hope BW doesn't hold back on this encounter let's the sparks fly between shep and him but we get to control what shep shouts back via the wheel until Garrus and his sister break it up. Does shep feel tolerate the abuse Garrus's dad shows to him or does he put his foot down and say, " You say that again and you'll be picking your teeth up on the floor?" basically what would shepard do if confronted with this situation?


EDIT: Everyone seems to gang up on Ash as a misperceived, borderline, or closet racist but doesn't anyone remember Presily thought the same? Nigel came on board and he said he didn't like him because he was a Turian and a Spector, he questions why the man should even be there, he also later gives more detail into why he thinks this way after most of the aliens join your crew. He didn't like them being on there, he didn't want them on the ship, but after a stern talking to says he'll work on it. Later at the crash site you find his journal and he states his initial issues with aliens and says now after all that has happened he'd gladly lay his life down for them. I think Ash is the same way a past that ties her to leery and at points distrusting but she would in the end give herself up to save an alien crewmen and if she makes that sacrifice in 3 you won't hear me complaining how it was a retcon or BW wanted to give her a new spin it fits with who she is in a larger view.

[noisecode]

I don't think ash is racist either. Mistrustful maybe, but not necessarily a bigot.

I'm not sure how to get the dialogue to get her to soften up either. It never showed up in any of my play throughs.

[Alamar2078]

I thought the Ash is a racists threads had died down again .. silly me they just moved here.

[wright1978]

Don't think the fact that Ash dislikes Cerberus in any way shows she isn't burdened with a degree of xenophobia. She hates Cerberus because Cerberus is the enemy of the Alliance and she is utterly devoted to the alliance out of some mad drive to prove all the people who have screwed with her career because of her grandfather wrong.

[1Minsc1]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I thought the Ash is a racists threads had died down again .. silly me they just moved here.

He had, or? This here was quite randomly and it was so calm here... Next time i send you a message.

[1Minsc1]

kylecouch wrote...
I never once musunderstood Ashely as a raceist...my mind was perfectly capable of understanding what she said...and it's true really...when I said humans I was talking the the other races as well. Members of a certin specises will always think their own race more important when trouble comes...which is why Ashley distrusts them...because she knows they will not always be allies. And honestly despite my intense hatred of Bioware for the ****** poor quality of the scene does the Horizen scene not prove how she dissaproves of Cerberus and of racist viewpoints? Everyone wants to blame Ashely and call her a blinded moron and dump her on the spot for the Horizen scene...but I refuse to blame the character for the shoddy quality the writers provided.

alperez wrote...
The other problem with is not understanding that Ash's personal history also directly influences how she sees aliens in general. She blames them for what happened to her grandfather and if you or i were in the same position we probably would feel the same.
Bioware did go as far as to address this in how a paragon shepard interacts with Ash but the thing is that for some reason people just decided to not paragon the character, again its something i don't get because if you take Garrus and don't paragon his character he suddenly becomes very shallow and one dimensional.
One other thing is that the horizon encounter (badly written though it is) also proves the point that for a racist Ash really doesn't fit the part. A racist pro human aliens be damned character which is what some people claim Ash to be would really have had no problem working with cerberus and yet Ash refuses.

Destroy Raiden wrote...
Ash is a complicated character and her complication is good it adds to her character and while she's not my LI and I really don't think she's spector material I can relate to her. I can sympathise and understand her, her family has been hurt by the Turian/Human war and the hurt keeps coming it never has faded sense her grandfather she is reminded of the person's mistake every time she tries to get a higher rank, everytime she runs into anyone who holds prejudice of the other side, its an on going thing in her life and with para shep she starts to change her mind.

I certainly agree to that. But there are a lot of players who don't understand her in the way we did. They turn Horizon against Ash, because, depending on dialog choice, she said "I'm no fan of aliens..." Are they just trolls or have fun to flame? Or are there different Ashleys, depending on the way the player played the game? To me it sounds a little arrogant to say "only we know her", but if this discussion was about a fictional character in a book i would surely say that and also "go, read again".

Perhaps you would like to give me a feedback to my "theory" [a little sarcasm]
1. In a RPG the player takes a role and here that means he is Shepard in certain way, or identify himself with Shepard more or less.
2. As this he/she identify with the perception of Shepard in game world, means: Shep (Me) is a big hero, making the way, the only way it works to save galaxy.
3. Most NPC act conforming this:
Tali:"O Shep, thank you for saving me, I am so glad to be here. Thank you, thank you." "Oh you got data from a Geth, this will help our war against them. Thank you, thank you...."
Liara: "O Shep, blessed by a prothean beacon, oh, oh." "Of course you can kill my mother, i´m begging you to do so, oh, oh..."
Both behave more than teenagers, not adult. Liara mentioned she is not adult by asari standard. Don´t get me wrong, i like them both, but this is a little silly, or?
4. Let´s take a look at Ash. "I´m not a princess, waiting for a knight in a shining armor" "Tali is a threat to security" "Liara is a bug-eyed Alien"
Conclusion: Ahs didn´t fit the scheme, more worse she dislikes the NPC that did. No suprise player who like Tali/Liara don´t like her. And, even more worse, she told a MShep "I don´t need a man (you) to be happy with my life" Again
this doesn´t fit the sheme "I´am the HERO! Nobody is happy without me!!!"
So maybe these are the real reasons why people don't like her???

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 12 mai 2011 - 09:46 .

[TheRevanchist]

wright1978 wrote...

Don't think the fact that Ash dislikes Cerberus in any way shows she isn't burdened with a degree of xenophobia. She hates Cerberus because Cerberus is the enemy of the Alliance and she is utterly devoted to the alliance out of some mad drive to prove all the people who have screwed with her career because of her grandfather wrong.

"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus is known for being extreameist." 
"That's an honorable goal...too bad so many of your memebers are just raceists."  - to Charles Saracino of Terra Firma.

[alperez]

noisecode wrote...

I don't think ash is racist either. Mistrustful maybe, but not necessarily a bigot.

I'm not sure how to get the dialogue to get her to soften up either. It never showed up in any of my play throughs.

There's a guide on youtube and on the wiki which shows you how, basically its just a few responses shepard gives that does the trick.

[alperez]

kylecouch wrote...

[
"I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus is known for being extreameist." 
"That's an honorable goal...too bad so many of your memebers are just raceists."  - to Charles Saracino of Terra Firma.

Thats just two examples that prove the point i, yourself and others have tried to state here. It still won't change some peoples opinions though no matter what. Like i said my biggest problem with the whole Ash hate thing is not that people dislike the character, thats their perogative but that they use a flawed argument to state why they dislike the character.

Its like saying Jack is a psycho i hate her which on the surface seems a logical argument but again is flawed because the character is more than what's on the surface. Personally i think its partly some people not understanding the basis of character development in an RPG.

We're given one dimensional characters and through or choices or conversations those characters are fleshed out and become two or sometimes three dimensional, sometimes not in the way we expect.

Me2 does this well with characters like Jack and Miranda who depending on how you play them are completely different to how they first appear. They're more layered and complex than your inital psycho/ice queen first impressions of them. Most people understood this and played it through with these characters and saw the layers beneath the exterior wheras in Ash's case some didn't bother to even try.

Hopefully me3 will expand a bit more on this and the characters will be fully rounded out, imo then and only then can any real appreciation of characters be addressed.

Even more hopefully we'll get enough interaction with all of the characters that were in our squads in me1 and me2 to allow this to be the case. Which is why i think any reduction in character roles weakens not only me3 but the series on a whole.

[gunswordfist]

McBeath wrote...

I just loved how people said "there is no way ME squaddies can return cause they can die" and all the BS for the last year... and wow, look at Garrus!

Suck it Zulu.

Cheers. McBeath

You can say that again. His thread made me f****** sick.

Congrats Bioware, for not throwing away the 12 characters from ME2 that you worked so hard on.

[TheRevanchist]

I do not take credit for this picture...only it's usage in the conversation...

[Nathan Redgrave]

The irony of the massive grammar fail in that demotivational doth not escape me.

[Ksandor]

kylecouch wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...


I'm 100% sure i read this in an interview with Chris E'toile, but i can't find the page. He also said that all other "beings" have the same attitude. It's not my opinion (Paragon, treat all equal...) but it is not racist.
Also, i wonder if BW had seen this "discussion" about "Ashs racism" coming or not. I think it's good that people are aware of racism and denie it, i'm sure i'm not the only one. So BW created a great character and was not able to do this in a non misunderstandable way (i.e. the dog/bear)? Do they want to find out how far they can go? Or do they just want to heat a discussion? On Cerberus it is quite the way round (right words?). Unethical goals (? i think so) and methods but a lot of players just think "the end justifies the means". So it was clear that some players be ******, when BW switched Cerberus from ME2 to ME3. Switching Cerberus could be just marketing, we all want to know why TIM is after Shep. 

Do you mean you would sacrifice another race to save the human?

And to Gimli and Legolas... Comparing the books to the films shows the problems of streamlining. I like the films, i really do. But the can't transport how deep Tolkiens thoughts were. So, in the movies, Gimli became nearly a clown and Legolas a SuperSpiderman. Remember that scene where Gimli tries to ride a horse or at helms deep, the ollifant etc. So why read the books, when i can comfortably watch the movies?
Perhaps there is a parallel to Ash, player are not willing to get her know so the turn to the typical "girls need a hero characters". And Miranda, she is also an interesting character i think, but why turn most of the player to her...

I never once musunderstood Ashely as a raceist...my mind was perfectly capable of understanding what she said...and it's true really...when I said humans I was talking the the other races as well. Members of a certin specises will always think their own race more important when trouble comes...which is why Ashley distrusts them...because she knows they will not always be allies. And honestly despite my intense hatred of Bioware for the ****** poor quality of the scene does the Horizen scene not prove how she dissaproves of Cerberus and of racist viewpoints? Everyone wants to blame Ashely and call her a blinded moron and dump her on the spot for the Horizen scene...but I refuse to blame the character for the shoddy quality the writers provided.

Guys the dog you sick on bear is not sentient. Aliens are sentient however and to them WE are the aliens. Ash is still racist and unfortunately that view, Ash's view is largely shared by Western culture. Pretty up however you want but it is racism if not at Hitler level. You do not need to cause genocide to be a racist. Human superiority views and any kind of discrimination or alineation of other sentients is racism. We cannot reduce aliens to dogs. And if someone does it I feel sorry for him/her and would be very cautious around them.

Now I think about it... Calling aliens "alien" is racism too. Remember the famous space horror movie Alien? What was that creature? An evil monster. So when you call them aliens you belittle them... What General Chang said in Star Trek VI? Human rights? So the rights only belong to humans? For me Ash's racism is obvious and not that subtle as someone would claim.

Modifié par Ksandor, 14 mai 2011 - 01:38 .

[GRISHASAUR]

Ksandor wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...


I'm 100% sure i read this in an interview with Chris E'toile, but i can't find the page. He also said that all other "beings" have the same attitude. It's not my opinion (Paragon, treat all equal...) but it is not racist.
Also, i wonder if BW had seen this "discussion" about "Ashs racism" coming or not. I think it's good that people are aware of racism and denie it, i'm sure i'm not the only one. So BW created a great character and was not able to do this in a non misunderstandable way (i.e. the dog/bear)? Do they want to find out how far they can go? Or do they just want to heat a discussion? On Cerberus it is quite the way round (right words?). Unethical goals (? i think so) and methods but a lot of players just think "the end justifies the means". So it was clear that some players be ******, when BW switched Cerberus from ME2 to ME3. Switching Cerberus could be just marketing, we all want to know why TIM is after Shep. 

Do you mean you would sacrifice another race to save the human?

And to Gimli and Legolas... Comparing the books to the films shows the problems of streamlining. I like the films, i really do. But the can't transport how deep Tolkiens thoughts were. So, in the movies, Gimli became nearly a clown and Legolas a SuperSpiderman. Remember that scene where Gimli tries to ride a horse or at helms deep, the ollifant etc. So why read the books, when i can comfortably watch the movies?
Perhaps there is a parallel to Ash, player are not willing to get her know so the turn to the typical "girls need a hero characters". And Miranda, she is also an interesting character i think, but why turn most of the player to her...

I never once musunderstood Ashely as a raceist...my mind was perfectly capable of understanding what she said...and it's true really...when I said humans I was talking the the other races as well. Members of a certin specises will always think their own race more important when trouble comes...which is why Ashley distrusts them...because she knows they will not always be allies. And honestly despite my intense hatred of Bioware for the ****** poor quality of the scene does the Horizen scene not prove how she dissaproves of Cerberus and of racist viewpoints? Everyone wants to blame Ashely and call her a blinded moron and dump her on the spot for the Horizen scene...but I refuse to blame the character for the shoddy quality the writers provided.

Guys the dog you sick on bear is not sentient. Aliens are sentient however and to them WE are the aliens. Ash is still racist and unfortunately that view, Ash's view is largely shared by Western culture. Pretty up however you want but it is racism if not at Hitler level. You do not need to cause genocide to be a racist. Human superiority views and any kind of discrimination or alineation of other sentients is racism. We cannot reduce aliens to dogs. And if someone does it I feel sorry for him/her and would be very cautious around them.

Now I think about it... Calling aliens "alien" is racism too. Remember the famous space horror movie Alien? What was that creature? An evil monster. So when you call them aliens you belittle them... What General Chang said in Star Trek VI? Human rights? So the rights only belong to humans? For me Ash's racism is obvious and not that subtle as someone would claim.

but in that qoute we're the dogs the cancile are the human and sarin is the bear

[wulf3n]

Ksandor wrote...
Guys the dog you sick on bear is not sentient.

Since when are dogs not sentient?

[Ksandor]

Grishasaur, I think the dog in the quote represents aliens. In the sense that humans should look out for themselves first and should not hesitate to sacrifice aliens if need be. Anyway that would not make a difference. All sentients should be equal. Thinking humans first is discrimination. Would Ash prefer to save the human child if there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and if she could save only one? I think she would try to save the human child first just because that child is human. And that is racism.

Wulf3n I see your point but aside from scientific and philosophical concerns do you really want to compare a human being to a dog?

[wulf3n]

Ksandor wrote...
Wulf3n I see your point but aside from scientific and philosophical concerns do you really want to compare a human being to a dog?

You're right...dogs are so much better I should probably sick myself on the bear, so the dog can get away.

Serious time:  I think you take the concept of racism too far. While technically not incorrect, it's ridiculously inclusive, and by your logic everyone is racist.

I think you're missing the difference between Malicious racism, and Evolutionary racism. 

Ksandor wrote...
Grishasaur, I think the dog in the quote represents aliens. In the sense that humans should look out for themselves first and should not hesitate to sacrifice aliens if need be. 

I interpreted the dog quote differently. She wasn't saying aliens are equivalent to dogs, she was saying she believes humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens, And that we may be all buddy buddy with them now, but when push comes to shove they'll leave us out to dry in order to save themselves, by pointing out, "hey, you'd do that as well. So why wouldn't they" in fact that kinda makes Ashley the least racist person in the ME universe because she believes aliens to be exactly like humans in every way, good and bad

[GRISHASAUR]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
Wulf3n I see your point but aside from scientific and philosophical concerns do you really want to compare a human being to a dog?

You're right...dogs are so much better I should probably sick myself on the bear, so the dog can get away.

Serious time:  I think you take the concept of racism too far. While technically not incorrect, it's ridiculously inclusive, and by your logic everyone is racist.

I think you're missing the difference between Malicious racism, and Evolutionary racism. 

Ksandor wrote...
Grishasaur, I think the dog in the quote represents aliens. In the sense that humans should look out for themselves first and should not hesitate to sacrifice aliens if need be. 

I interpreted the dog quote differently. She wasn't saying aliens are equivalent to dogs, she was saying she believes humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens, And that we may be all buddy buddy with them now, but when push comes to shove they'll leave us out to dry in order to save themselves, by pointing out, "hey, you'd do that as well. So why wouldn't they" in fact that kinda makes Ashley the least racist person in the ME universe because she believes aliens to be exactly like humans in every way, good and bad

THANK YOU THATS WHAT I MENT TO SAY

[TheRevanchist]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
Wulf3n I see your point but aside from scientific and philosophical concerns do you really want to compare a human being to a dog?

You're right...dogs are so much better I should probably sick myself on the bear, so the dog can get away.

Serious time:  I think you take the concept of racism too far. While technically not incorrect, it's ridiculously inclusive, and by your logic everyone is racist.

I think you're missing the difference between Malicious racism, and Evolutionary racism. 

Ksandor wrote...
Grishasaur, I think the dog in the quote represents aliens. In the sense that humans should look out for themselves first and should not hesitate to sacrifice aliens if need be. 

I interpreted the dog quote differently. She wasn't saying aliens are equivalent to dogs, she was saying she believes humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens, And that we may be all buddy buddy with them now, but when push comes to shove they'll leave us out to dry in order to save themselves, by pointing out, "hey, you'd do that as well. So why wouldn't they" in fact that kinda makes Ashley the least racist person in the ME universe because she believes aliens to be exactly like humans in every way, good and bad

Thank god...someone found the words that escaped me...

[Ksandor]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
Wulf3n I see your point but aside from scientific and philosophical concerns do you really want to compare a human being to a dog?

You're right...dogs are so much better I should probably sick myself on the bear, so the dog can get away.

Serious time:  I think you take the concept of racism too far. While technically not incorrect, it's ridiculously inclusive, and by your logic everyone is racist.

I think you're missing the difference between Malicious racism, and Evolutionary racism. 

Ksandor wrote...
Grishasaur, I think the dog in the quote represents aliens. In the sense that humans should look out for themselves first and should not hesitate to sacrifice aliens if need be. 

I interpreted the dog quote differently. She wasn't saying aliens are equivalent to dogs, she was saying she believes humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens, And that we may be all buddy buddy with them now, but when push comes to shove they'll leave us out to dry in order to save themselves, by pointing out, "hey, you'd do that as well. So why wouldn't they" in fact that kinda makes Ashley the least racist person in the ME universe because she believes aliens to be exactly like humans in every way, good and bad

"Humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens" or "aliens to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of humans". No difference there. Your interpretation is just another way of saying the same thing. I don't think that 2 wrongs make a right. In the sense that even if aliens think us as dogs they would be wrong and they would be racists. We should not repeat the same error. If we want to counter this prejudice or don't like this attitude we should behave differently. If we act like aliens to justify our position we are no better than them. Where is the moral high ground then? If we act like them then we justify their position by your interpretation.  

Actually my definition is not ridiculosly inclusive and won't make everybody a racist. Why should it? Honestly I don't see your point. For instance I am not racist. I would protect my country's interests first and foremost but without compromising the common good or my morals or my character. Even if an alien should be ready to discard the human race when push comes to shove I would still not discriminate the race the alien belongs. Discriminate the alien who thinks that way, yes. Prevent him to discard us, yes. Discriminating his race as a whole no.

Do you think that Ashley understands this and would not be a racist? Or would she act just like aliens for she knows they would do the same to us? Ashley thinks that we should treat aliens the same way they treat us -- aka dog analogy.

And I would not attack the bear to save my dog because I don't compare humans to dogs, nethier I compare aliens to dogs for that matter. Though I know you are kidding. 

As for the different types of racism. Again no matter, I am against all kinds of racism. 

I would like to clarify my point:

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first.

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first, regardless of his race.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

Modifié par Ksandor, 16 mai 2011 - 12:11 .

[alperez]

Once again i think people are missing the point of the character and getting caught up in semantics, one quote from Ash is being used to completely define whether or not she is a racist which transforms this into a completely different debate.

Ash at the beginning of the game is mistrustful of aliens for a genunine reason by the end of the game if you play a certain way she changes. What she says when she feels how she originally feels has to be weighed up with what she say's when she changes.

Early on she is mistrustful to the point that she believes aliens are the reason why her grandfather and the williams name is held in such low regard. Her interaction with aliens is limited at best and non existent at worst, so her viewpoint has never been challenged and her knowledge of aliens is limited by this viewpoint.

When shepard comes along she must interact with aliens (possibly for the first time) and then her view on them is automatically challenged, shepard can then help her change her views even further by conversation and by the end like i've said before her character has grown considerably.

The quote about dogs is a bad attempt at humour but is based on her original viewpoint and is therefore to be taken as such. She also makes what could be considered a racist comment about Liara which is nothing of the sort but if you look at it one way it could be construed as such.

With the dog quote they attempted to show Ash's original viewpoint and for it to come across as a was she being serious or not type of thing. WIth the liara quote they were trying to show jealousy but keeping it in the subtle context of someone who distrusts aliens.

Both situations could on the face of it be considered racist and are by some but to me their missing the point, they are there to show a viewpoint of a character at the beginning of the character arc and are supposed to be weighed up with the characters overall arc.

Basically its like saying that Garrus is only a vengeance based character because both times you've met him he's being trying to take revenge on people. This in no way sums Garrus up but if you apply the logic people apply to Ash its the conclussion you would reach.

[gunswordfist]

kylecouch wrote...



I do not take credit for this picture...only it's usage in the conversation...