493 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Ksandor wrote...
"Humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens" or "aliens to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of humans". No difference there. Your interpretation is just another way of saying the same thing. I don't think that 2 wrongs make a right. In the sense that even if aliens think us as dogs they would be wrong and they would be racists. We should not repeat the same error. If we want to counter this prejudice or don't like this attitude we should behave differently. If we act like aliens to justify our position we are no better than them. Where is the moral high ground then? If we act like them then we justify their position by your interpretation.

But isn't racism just treating people different based upon their race? good or bad? Ash transcends all racsim by treating aliens exactly as she treats humans.

Besides this isn't the federation. the term "Aliens" as used by Ash just means, non-alliance personnel, which is effectively aliens, for as far as I'm aware there are no non-human alliance. Effectively she's saying should we really be placing all our hopes on people that haven't sworn the same allegience to earth and all it's citizens like we have.

Ksandor wrote...
Actually my definition is not ridiculosly inclusive and won't make everybody a racist. Why should it? Honestly I don't see your point. For instance I am not racist. I would protect my country's interests first and foremost but without compromising the common good or my morals or my character.

 
Which is exactly what Ash is doing. First and Foremost she's Alliance. You and Ash are more similar than you realise, you're as much of a racist as she is. Would you feel comfortable to allow Foreign Nationals full access to all your government  and military installations? would you place all your hopes on Foreign Governments coming to your aid, even when they've got their own problems?

Ksandor wrote...

Even if an alien should be ready to discard the human race when push comes to shove I would still not discriminate the race the alien belongs. Discriminate the alien who thinks that way, yes. Prevent him to discard us, yes. Discriminating his race as a whole no. 

Ash is talking about Alien Governments, who have their own people and Interests to look after. Sure she didn't specify, nor did she say all aliens everywhere, everyone just assumes the worst with no evidence.

Ksandor wrote...
Do you think that Ashley understands this and would not be a racist? Or would she act just like aliens for she knows they would do the same to us? Ashley thinks that we should treat aliens the same way they treat us -- aka dog analogy. 

I think race isn't an issue to Ash, Allegience is

Ksandor wrote...

And I would not attack the bear to save my dog because I don't compare humans to dogs, nethier I compare aliens to dogs for that matter. Though I know you are kidding. 

Kinda but not really. 

Ksandor wrote...

As for the different types of racism. Again no matter, I am against all kinds of racism. 

One is necessary for survival. without which the human race wouldn't exist.
One is an exaggerated mutation of the other based upon fear.

Ksandor wrote...
I would like to clarify my point:

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first.

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first, regardless of his race.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

So what you're saying is you'd save the one you know over the one you don't.
Which is pretty much what Ash is saying. Keep in mind Ash hasn't had any experience with aliens, her statement comes from a cautious approach to the unkown, also known [by me] as evoltionary racsim.

If human kind was stupid enough to trust their life with every lifeform they meet, we would have been extinct long ago.

Modifié par wulf3n, 17 mai 2011 - 10:12 .

[TheRevanchist]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
"Humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens" or "aliens to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of humans". No difference there. Your interpretation is just another way of saying the same thing. I don't think that 2 wrongs make a right. In the sense that even if aliens think us as dogs they would be wrong and they would be racists. We should not repeat the same error. If we want to counter this prejudice or don't like this attitude we should behave differently. If we act like aliens to justify our position we are no better than them. Where is the moral high ground then? If we act like them then we justify their position by your interpretation.

But isn't racism just treating people different based upon their race? good or bad? Ash transcends all racsim by treating aliens exactly as she treats humans.

Besides this isn't the federation. the term "Aliens" as used by Ash just means, non-alliance personnel, which is effectively aliens, for as far as I'm aware there are no non-human alliance. Effectively she's saying should we really be placing all our hopes on people that haven't sworn the same allegience to earth and all it's citizens like we have.

Ksandor wrote...
Actually my definition is not ridiculosly inclusive and won't make everybody a racist. Why should it? Honestly I don't see your point. For instance I am not racist. I would protect my country's interests first and foremost but without compromising the common good or my morals or my character.

 
Which is exactly what Ash is doing. First and Foremost she's Alliance. You and Ash are more similar than you realise, you're as much of a racist as she is. Would you feel comfortable to allow Foreign Nationals full access to all your government  and military installations? would you place all your hopes on Foreign Governments coming to your aid, even when they've got their own problems?

Ksandor wrote...

Even if an alien should be ready to discard the human race when push comes to shove I would still not discriminate the race the alien belongs. Discriminate the alien who thinks that way, yes. Prevent him to discard us, yes. Discriminating his race as a whole no. 

Ash is talking about Alien Governments, who have their own people and Interests to look after. Sure she didn't specify, nor did she say all aliens everywhere, everyone just assumes the worst with no evidence.

Ksandor wrote...
Do you think that Ashley understands this and would not be a racist? Or would she act just like aliens for she knows they would do the same to us? Ashley thinks that we should treat aliens the same way they treat us -- aka dog analogy. 

I think race isn't an issue to Ash, Allegience is

Ksandor wrote...

And I would not attack the bear to save my dog because I don't compare humans to dogs, nethier I compare aliens to dogs for that matter. Though I know you are kidding. 

Kinda but not really. 

Ksandor wrote...

As for the different types of racism. Again no matter, I am against all kinds of racism. 

One is necessary for survival. without which the human race wouldn't exist.
One is an exaggerated mutation of the other based upon fear.

Ksandor wrote...
I would like to clarify my point:

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first.

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first, regardless of his race.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

So what you're saying is you'd save the one you know over the one you don't.
Which is pretty much what Ash is saying. Keep in mind Ash hasn't had any experience with aliens, her statement comes from a cautious approach to the unkown, also known [by me] as evoltionary racsim.

If human kind was stupid enough to trust their life with every lifeform they meet, we would have been extinct long ago.

lol...you like...nailed Ashleys defence with diamond encrusted platinum nails...well done sir.

[GRISHASAUR]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
"Humans to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of aliens" or "aliens to be equivalent to dogs in the eyes of humans". No difference there. Your interpretation is just another way of saying the same thing. I don't think that 2 wrongs make a right. In the sense that even if aliens think us as dogs they would be wrong and they would be racists. We should not repeat the same error. If we want to counter this prejudice or don't like this attitude we should behave differently. If we act like aliens to justify our position we are no better than them. Where is the moral high ground then? If we act like them then we justify their position by your interpretation.

But isn't racism just treating people different based upon their race? good or bad? Ash transcends all racsim by treating aliens exactly as she treats humans.

Besides this isn't the federation. the term "Aliens" as used by Ash just means, non-alliance personnel, which is effectively aliens, for as far as I'm aware there are no non-human alliance. Effectively she's saying should we really be placing all our hopes on people that haven't sworn the same allegience to earth and all it's citizens like we have.

Ksandor wrote...
Actually my definition is not ridiculosly inclusive and won't make everybody a racist. Why should it? Honestly I don't see your point. For instance I am not racist. I would protect my country's interests first and foremost but without compromising the common good or my morals or my character.

 
Which is exactly what Ash is doing. First and Foremost she's Alliance. You and Ash are more similar than you realise, you're as much of a racist as she is. Would you feel comfortable to allow Foreign Nationals full access to all your government  and military installations? would you place all your hopes on Foreign Governments coming to your aid, even when they've got their own problems?

Ksandor wrote...

Even if an alien should be ready to discard the human race when push comes to shove I would still not discriminate the race the alien belongs. Discriminate the alien who thinks that way, yes. Prevent him to discard us, yes. Discriminating his race as a whole no. 

Ash is talking about Alien Governments, who have their own people and Interests to look after. Sure she didn't specify, nor did she say all aliens everywhere, everyone just assumes the worst with no evidence.

Ksandor wrote...
Do you think that Ashley understands this and would not be a racist? Or would she act just like aliens for she knows they would do the same to us? Ashley thinks that we should treat aliens the same way they treat us -- aka dog analogy. 

I think race isn't an issue to Ash, Allegience is

Ksandor wrote...

And I would not attack the bear to save my dog because I don't compare humans to dogs, nethier I compare aliens to dogs for that matter. Though I know you are kidding. 

Kinda but not really. 

Ksandor wrote...

As for the different types of racism. Again no matter, I am against all kinds of racism. 

One is necessary for survival. without which the human race wouldn't exist.
One is an exaggerated mutation of the other based upon fear.

Ksandor wrote...
I would like to clarify my point:

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first.

If there were 2 human children to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, I would save the child I could reach first, regardless of his race.

If there were 1 human and 1 alien child to save and I could save only one, and if one of them was my son, I would save my son first.

So what you're saying is you'd save the one you know over the one you don't.
Which is pretty much what Ash is saying. Keep in mind Ash hasn't had any experience with aliens, her statement comes from a cautious approach to the unkown, also known [by me] as evoltionary racsim.

If human kind was stupid enough to trust their life with every lifeform they meet, we would have been extinct long ago.

 well done indeed

[colossus50000]

 
I made a poll if you guys want to check it out asking what kind of race that hasnt been on your squad before that you would like to have in ME3. http://social.biowar...36/polls/20154/

[GreenDragon37]

Ash is no racist. A little xenophobic, maybe, but not racist. And considering her past, it's understandable why she would be. However, I think the Alliance really needs to be blamed for what happened to Ash's grandfather, not the Turians. However that's a discussion for another time.

The point is, Ash views aliens the same way she views Humans: saints and jerks.

[Ksandor]

wulf3n wrote...

But isn't racism just treating people different based upon their race? good or bad? Ash transcends all racsim by treating aliens exactly as she treats humans.

When Ash visits Citaled she says that she can't tell aliens from dogs. I don't think that she transcends racism. Some people on these forums believe that people who say Ash is racist take one of her comments out of context and accuse her falsely. But Ash's quote stated in Citadel is even more blatant then her subsequent dog analogy. That is a clear racist statement. It is not about allegiance. She says that she can't tell aliens from dogs (including all alien races).

Besides this isn't the federation. the term "Aliens" as used by Ash just means, non-alliance personnel, which is effectively aliens, for as far as I'm aware there are no non-human alliance. Effectively she's saying should we really be placing all our hopes on people that haven't sworn the same allegience to earth and all it's citizens like we have.

You are right. This is not the Federation. But you should also ask why. Because Federation is not racist. However Systems Alliance harbors many racist elements. If you think Ash's quote stated in Citadel and her dog analogy it is clear that this is racism with a not so elegant allegiance argument cover. 

Which is exactly what Ash is doing. First and Foremost she's Alliance. You and Ash are more similar than you realise, you're as much of a racist as she is. Would you feel comfortable to allow Foreign Nationals full access to all your government  and military installations? would you place all your hopes on Foreign Governments coming to your aid, even when they've got their own problems?

Shepard does not grant aliens full access to Systems Alliance command structure. Shepard cleary states that. "Some say asking for help from strangers is a form of weakness. This is just being stubborn and stupid. No matter how you are strong allies can make you stronger. This is a multilateral mission. Yo do not trust Alliance's allies?" Shepard believes that cooperation with alien races will mitigate the dog-analogy-like mistrust between us and aliens. He never betrays Alliance to aliens nor aliens ask him to do so. He certainly does not handle the command to aliens, he does not reveal state secrets to them. But he works with aliens with no problems. What is Ash's problem then? Clearly paragon Shepard does not feel the same with her.

I think race isn't an issue to Ash, Allegience is

Her own quotes says otherwise.

One is necessary for survival. without which the human race wouldn't exist.
One is an exaggerated mutation of the other based upon fear.

Both of them are racism. Neither of them are acceptable in this libertarian and democratic world. Or if we want to live in such a world. Justifying any form racism by using survival arguments is racism. We are moral beings. We have freedom of choice. We can sacrifice our lives to save other lives. I do not need to be racist to survive in this world

Also there is no human race. There is human species. As the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins states in his books Blind Watchmaker and Ancestor's Tale the concept of race is a not scientific or biological or an evolutionary concept. Genetically all people are related to each other via the genetic code inherited from father and mother and the mitochondrial DNA (the common ancestral mother). So for instance you may not like Kurds and you might be sure that there are no Kurdish relatives in your family but maybe 1/70 of your genetic code inherited centuries ago belongs to Kurdish population. So if you go for race concept... Tough luck.

So what you're saying is you'd save the one you know over the one you don't.
Which is pretty much what Ash is saying. Keep in mind Ash hasn't had any experience with aliens, her statement comes from a cautious approach to the unkown, also known [by me] as evoltionary racsim.

No, you are wrong. If there were 2 children to save, 1 American and 1 Turk (I am Turk) and if I could save only one I would save the first child I could, be it American or Turk. 

When I save my son first it is not because he is Turk. But because he is my son. This is different than racism.

But Ash would always try to save the American first and that is racism.

If human kind was stupid enough to trust their life with every lifeform they meet, we would have been extinct long ago.

This is a non issue. Shepard works with aliens but he does not trust his life to every lifeform he meets. He just cooperates with aliens without any prejudice. If he can do that Ash should have too.

Would Ash save the Rachni queen like Shepard did? I think she would not. 

But I agree that she becomes more tolerant to aliens after working with them which is exactly Shepard's point.

Modifié par Ksandor, 20 mai 2011 - 09:24 .

[Ksandor]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ash is no racist. A little xenophobic, maybe, but not racist. And considering her past, it's understandable why she would be. However, I think the Alliance really needs to be blamed for what happened to Ash's grandfather, not the Turians. However that's a discussion for another time.

The point is, Ash views aliens the same way she views Humans: saints and jerks.

Xenophobia and racism are the same thing. When your attitude toward aliens is racist you are xenophobic. HATRED and fear as Wikiepedia states:

Xenophobia is defined as the "hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture".[1] It comes from theGreek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner" and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear.

Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity.[3] Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unreal, stereotyped and exotic quality".[4]

Racism:

Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people's traits and capacities which are entirely due to their race, however defined, and which consequently justify those people being treated differently, both socially and legally. Alternatively, racism is the practice of certain group/s of people being treated differently, which is then justified by recourse to racial sterotyping or pseudo-science.


The alternative definition of racism is equal to xenophobia. Even if you do not equal racism to xenophobia you should see that these two notions are closely related in life.

Modifié par Ksandor, 20 mai 2011 - 08:57 .

[wulf3n]

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
When Ash visits Citaled she says that she can't tell aliens from dogs. I don't think that she transcends racism. 
[/quote]

I've never heard that line of dialog. Link it, or it doesn't count.

[quote]

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
You are right. This is not the Federation. But you should also ask why. Because Federation is not racist. However Systems Alliance harbors many racist elements.[/quote]

By your logic they are. When the Klingon Empire starts a war with them, they say they're at war with the klingons. But they obviously don't mean all klingons because worf is right there in front of them. But because they don't specify, your reasoning would have them prejudiced against klingons.


[quote]Ksandor wrote...
Shepard does not grant aliens full access to Systems Alliance command structure.[/quote]
Tali being allowed access to a state of the art top secret stealth engine, must have just been something i imagined then.[/quote]

[quote]Ksandor wrote...  

Shepard cleary states that. "Some say asking for help from strangers is a form of weakness. This is just being stubborn and stupid. No matter how you are strong allies can make you stronger. This is a multilateral mission. Yo do not trust Alliance's allies?" Shepard believes that cooperation with alien races will mitigate the dog-analogy-like mistrust between us and aliens. He never betrays Alliance to aliens nor aliens ask him to do so. He certainly does not handle the command to aliens, he does not reveal state secrets to them. But he works with aliens with no problems. What is Ash's problem then? Clearly paragon Shepard does not feel the same with her.[/quote]

Ash is saying you shouldn't trust people that haven't given you any reason to trust them, because everyone is ultimately looking out for themselves.



[quote]Ksandor wrote...
Her own quotes says otherwise.[/quote]

name one that actually happened.



[quote]Ksandor wrote...
Both of them are racism. Neither of them are acceptable in this libertarian and democratic world. Or if we want to live in such a world. Justifying any form racism by using survival arguments is racism. We are moral beings. We have freedom of choice. We can sacrifice our lives to save other lives. I do not need to be racist to survive in this world [/quote]

Which is all well and good when everyone feels the same. The problem is everyone doesn't. And taking the moral high ground will be of little cosequence when others will take complete advantage of your generosity. 


[quote]Ksandor wrote...

Also there is no human race. There is human species. As the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins states in his books Blind Watchmaker and Ancestor's Tale the concept of race is a not scientific or biological or an evolutionary concept. Genetically all people are related to each other via the genetic code inherited from father and mother and the mitochondrial DNA (the common ancestral mother). So for instance you may not like Kurds and you might be sure that there are no Kurdish relatives in your family but maybe 1/70 of your genetic code inherited centuries ago belongs to Kurdish population. So if you go for race concept... Tough luck.[/quote]

Now you're just arguing semantics. And if we explore this concept more, Ash couldn't possibly be racist, as Aliens aren't a different race, they're a different species.




[quote]Ksandor wrote...
No, you are wrong. If there were 2 children to save, 1 American and 1 Turk (I am Turk) and if I could save only one I would save the first child I could, be it American or Turk. 

When I save my son first it is not because he is Turk. But because he is my son. This is different than racism.[/quote]

You missed the point completely

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
But Ash would always try to save the American first and that is racism.[/quote]
[/quote]

Pure speculation, you have no Idea who Ash would save first.

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
This is a non issue. Shepard works with aliens but he does not trust his life to every lifeform he meets. He just cooperates with aliens without any prejudice. If he can do that Ash should have too.[/quote]

Why? what reason does Ash have to trust aliens? 

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
But I agree that she becomes more tolerant to aliens after working with them which is exactly Shepard's point.
[/quote]

As now she has a reason to trust aliens.

Again this is less about them being aliens, and more about a lack of knowledge and experience. Unless people have proven themselves to be trust worthy, only a fool would trust them.

[Ksandor]

wulf3n wrote...

[quote]I've never heard that line of dialog. Link it, or it doesn't count.[/quote]
Actually she says: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals." 

http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/53394664
http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/52796153

Some say she means Keepers. But unless you consider Keepers animals and non sentient this is racism. However that would be an artificial argument just to exonerate Ashley. I am not sure why you are sceptical. She is quite obvious and blunt actually.

[quote]By your logic they are. When the Klingon Empire starts a war with them, they say they're at war with the klingons. But they obviously don't mean all klingons because worf is right there in front of them. But because they don't specify, your reasoning would have them prejudiced against klingons.[/quote]
I do not see your point. Why they should be racist when they say they are at war with the Klingons? What Worf does among Federation ranks then? Please clarify. What this has to do with my logic?

[quote]Tali being allowed access to a state of the art top secret stealth engine, must have just been something i imagined then.[/quote]
This is not the same thing. Shepard did not grant Tali unlimited access to Systems Alliance Command as a whole. Shepard did not give Tali unlimited access to Alliance military and government. Tali did not become President of Systems Alliance and she does not have any legislative, jurisdiction or executive powers to rule the Alliance. The Quarian flotilla does not have access codes to enter Alliance space freely. Shepard only cooperates with alliens. He does not conspire with them. Ash should cooperate with them too. So the thing you said did not happen in the game. This is a non issue. Your point is irrelevant and implausible.

[quote]Ash is saying you shouldn't trust people that haven't given you any reason to trust them, because everyone is ultimately looking out for themselves... name one that actually happened.[/quote]
I think her quotes show more bigotry than what you say here. It is obvious we disagree on that. I do not need to provide more quotes. The ones I provided are enough. I interpret them differently than you. We should not continue to this discussion without offering a new argument. Otherwise we will enter a vicious cycle.[/quote]

[quote]Which is all well and good when everyone feels the same. The problem is everyone doesn't. And taking the moral high ground will be of little cosequence when others will take complete advantage of your generosity.[/quote]
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Beyond Good and Evil", Aphorism 146 (1886), Friedrich Nietzsche

"I won't let fear compromise who I am."
Commander Shepard, when refusing to preserve the Collector Base.

I can only speak for myself and the people I know but I can't become racist just because some people are. I trust myself and my integrity of character to live my life according to moral standards. Justifying racism is racism. And of course we should take the moral high ground. If not who will take it?

[quote]Now you're just arguing semantics. And if we explore this concept more, Ash couldn't possibly be racist, as Aliens aren't a different race, they're a different species.[/quote]
Not semantics but science. There is also concrete genetic proof. Really it is not about what you believe. It is what it is. Genetics render the concept of race moot. Ashley is racist because she does not see aliens as different species, she sees them as alien races to discriminate. She fears them, so does not trust them and naturally discriminates them. It is because of ignorance.

[quote]You missed the point completely[/quote]
Yes you missed the point.

[quote]Pure speculation, you have no Idea who Ash would save first.[/quote]
Her quotes make me think so.

[quote]Why? what reason does Ash have to trust aliens?[/quote]
So a man should not trust his office colleagues by default if they are foreign nationals? I cannot agree with this point of view. Paragon Shepard disagrees too and he gives some reasons to trust aliens which I have included in my previous post.

[quote]As now she has a reason to trust aliens. Again this is less about them being aliens, and more about a lack of knowledge and experience. Unless people have proven themselves to be trust worthy, only a fool would trust them.
[/quote]

For ashley this is about them being aliens. But I agree with the rest. She became more tolerant when working with them which is exactly Shepard's point.

Modifié par Ksandor, 20 mai 2011 - 01:59 .

[wulf3n]

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
Actually she says: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals." 

http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/53394664
http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/52796153

Some say she means Keepers. But unless you consider Keepers animals and non sentient this is racism. However that would be an artificial argument just to exonerate Ashley. I am not sure why you are sceptical. She is quite obvious and blunt actually.[/quote]

Ok, technically not proof...but whatever i'll run with it.

See I actually have a theory to tell how racist a person is by how they react to innocent statements like this. The more a person get riled up, the more racist they are.

When I look at that quote i see Ash voicing her inexperience of the citadel, saying she can't tell the difference between the Citadel animal life and the SAPIENT Council races, on appearance alone.
See that's not racism. Ash isn't saying aliens are like animals, she's saying they're all so alien [ the council races and the council animals] that she can't tell them apart, and honeslty could you? If had nothing but appearance to go by?

The keyword in that quote is "the" if Ash had said "I cant tell the Aliens from animals" that would be racist as she would be referring to all animals, mainly the ones she knows, so it's a comparison. the "the" implies the animals here, of which she knows as much about as she does the aliens (with the possible exception of the Turians).

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
I do not see your point. Why they should be racist when they say they are at war with the Klingons? What Worf does among Federation ranks then? Please clarify. What this has to do with my logic?[/quote]

It was about generalization, saying klingons as meaning all klingons... but I may have misread/misunderstood one of your previous posts.


[quote]Ksandor wrote...

This is not the same thing. Shepard did not grant Tali unlimited access to Systems Alliance Command as a whole. Shepard did not give Tali unlimited access to Alliance military and government. Tali did not become President of Systems Alliance and she does not have any legislative, jurisdiction or executive powers to rule the Alliance. The Quarian flotilla does not have access codes to enter Alliance space freely. Shepard only cooperates with alliens. He does not conspire with them. Ash should cooperate with them too. So the thing you said did not happen in the game. This is a non issue. Your point is irrelevant and implausible.[/quote]

She just has access to the most state of the art piece of stealth technology that exists in the current universe, that was supposed to be top secret. That's bad enough.


[quote]Ksandor wrote...
I think her quotes show more bigotry than what you say here. It is obvious we disagree on that. I do not need to provide more quotes. The ones I provided are enough. I interpret them differently than you.[/quote]

Which is more an indication of your level of racism than it is Ash's



[quote]Ksandor wrote...
I can only speak for myself and the people I know but I can't become racist just because some people are. I trust myself and my integrity of character to live my life according to moral standards. Justifying racism is racism. And of course we should take the moral high ground. If not who will take it?
[/quote]

It's not racism to cautious of people you don't know. You only think it's racism because it's someone of a different race.

[quote]Ksandor wrote...

Not semantics but science. There is also concrete genetic proof. Really it is not about what you believe. It is what it is.[/quote]

Racism is about discrimination of RACE not species. The reason I said you were arguing semantics is because it was pretty obvious what we all meant when we use the term racism, but for no apparent reason you bring up the argument.




[quote]You missed the point completely[/quote][quote]Ksandor wrote...
Yes you missed the point.[/quote]

What are we, 10?

[quote]Pure speculation, you have no Idea who Ash would save first.[/quote][quote]Ksandor wrote...
Her quotes make me think so.[/quote]

Here you are giving everyone thats not human the benefit of the doubt, but when it comes to a human beings...

[quote]Why? what reason does Ash have to trust aliens?[/quote][quote]Ksandor wrote...
So a man should not trust his office colleagues by default if they are foreign nationals? I cannot agree with this point of view. Paragon Shepard disagrees too and he gives some reasons to trust aliens which I have included in my previous post.[/quote]

No a person shouldn't trust their colleagues because they don't know them. Nationality, Race it's unimportant. But if the person so happens to be of a different race, everyone seems to cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.
 

[Nightdragon8]

when did this topic turn into a is ash racist or not topic???

IMO xenophobic and racism are not the same. its a matter of degrees but the real issue is we are all racist in some way or fashion it just matters how much of a racist you are...

and if anything xenophovic = fear of aliens no where is it "hate" of. Ash is honestly more weary as in not sure what they are up to as stated before she isn't a racist. Its not so much that she hates them just doesn't trust them.

In all honesty I don't see the mistrust more than anything that just mistrust, I mean they where on the most advanced warship the alliance has and yet Sheperd was letting on a bunch of people no one really knew about. I mean Wrex, Garius (granted that was more of the rebounds of the first contact wars, where she is mis placing her anger on the turians than more on the military where the blame should have been put), Tali (tho it seemed she didn't really mind her that much), Ash also warmed up to Liara later on. So really after she "fought along side them" she started trusting them more and was more comfortable with them. I mean she didn't have that big of a problem with fighting with the salarians, all she said was "it was weird" which to be honst it is strange when you are under someone else command.

[Ksandor]

wulf3n wrote... 

Hımm... You are entitled to your opinion about Ashley and me . This topic is degrading fast because now you are making it personal. Apparently seeing racism behind this so called "cautious approach" shows my level of racism instead. I did not criticize your morals or personality but you presume to judge me. It is probably because I continued to post here and made some references.

Oh well this is internet. People usually react negatively when they can't persuade another. Your insinuations don't offend me because I don't care your opinion regarding me. We are talking Ashley here, not me and I don't have to prove myself to anybody.

I will continue to think that prettying up racism with this so called "cautious approach" concept just encourages people to be more racist by supposedly easing their conscience. Shepard gave aliens access to Normandy. And in turn they saved the galaxy, including humanity along with Shepard. So they did not take advantage of Shepard's foolish (!) trust for aliens and they did not destroy the Alliance from within (despite Tali having access to Normandy).

In fact Alliance became stronger in galactic politics in the end and in one scenario Shepard even takes Ashley's proverbial "cautious approach", lets council die and Alliance becomes the "master" (insert the new Pax Americana or the ragged breath of Darth Vader here). So who was right at the end? Shepard or Ashley? There is a writing on the wall here but...

Nightdragon whatever your opinion about Ashley is xenophobia does lead to racism. Xenophobia is risky. In a free world there should be no room for xenophobia. As for hate... This is speculation but Turians disgraced Ashley's grandfather by defeating him at Shanxi, effectively ruining her and her father's military career. I think she has very personal reasons to dislike aliens.


Anyway I will not reply to this topic anymore. I don't have time for bickering. I said my piece and people are free to think on it.

Modifié par Ksandor, 21 mai 2011 - 04:23 .

[wulf3n]

[quote]Ksandor wrote...
I did not criticize your morals or personality but you presume to judge me. It is probably because I continued to post here and made some references.

Oh well this is internet. People usually react negatively when they can't persuade another. Your insinuations don't offend me because I don't care your opinion regarding me. We are talking Ashley here, not me and I don't have to prove myself to anybody.[/quote]
[/quote]

When did i ciriticize your morals or personality?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Is Ash a racist?.... a little bit.

Is everyone a racist? To some extent if you take the definition literally.

"Because we don't know you or your race, we will take precaution" is a form of racism.
"Because we don't know you but know negative things about your race, we will take precaution" is also a form of racism.

[Heimdall]

Ash is just a little Xenophobic, that's all. She distrusts aliens a bit, but she doesn't think they're evil. Understandable, as she has less common ground with aliens than other humans, they are the greater unknown. There is an evolutionarily ingrained caution of the unknown...

[Massadonious1]

So, no one cares to discuss ME3 anymore? Awesome, I'll go crawl back in my hole for another 8 months.

[Comaatil]

Miranda may not come back new season of Chuck

[MACharlie1]

Commander tabris wrote...

Miranda may not come back new season of Chuck

Yvonne managed to do VO AND Chuck for during ME2's production. As did Adam Baldwin. in addition to little interviews and conventions. 

[Heimdall]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Commander tabris wrote...

Miranda may not come back new season of Chuck

Yvonne managed to do VO AND Chuck for during ME2's production. As did Adam Baldwin. in addition to little interviews and conventions. 

  I imagine voice acting is far less time consuming than filming a show.  It shouldn't be a problem.

[Yeti13]

actually voice acting is a long and arduous process, depending on the studio and amount of lines being recorded. Remember that most lines don't make it into the final product. And since it's voice only, the delivery is based on diction and emotion so you really have to emphasize what your saying. Sometimes they have to re-record the same sentence dozens of times until it's perfect

[Merf4]

YAYAYAYAYAY LIARA!!!

She's my merill, and my merill is my Liara!!!!

Thank you bioware for not selling us gay gamers out!!

[Destroy Raiden_]

wulf3n wrote...

Ksandor wrote...
Actually she says: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals." 

http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/53394664
http://www.gamefaqs....fect-2/52796153

Some say she means Keepers. But unless you consider Keepers animals and non sentient this is racism. However that would be an artificial argument just to exonerate Ashley. I am not sure why you are sceptical. She is quite obvious and blunt actually.

Ok, technically not proof...but whatever i'll run with it.

See I actually have a theory to tell how racist a person is by how they react to innocent statements like this. The more a person get riled up, the more racist they are.

When I look at that quote i see Ash voicing her inexperience of the citadel, saying she can't tell the difference between the Citadel animal life and the SAPIENT Council races, on appearance alone.
See that's not racism. Ash isn't saying aliens are like animals, she's saying they're all so alien [ the council races and the council animals] that she can't tell them apart, and honeslty could you? If had nothing but appearance to go by?

Actually I agree with Ash at that point where she says she can't figure out which is which because I couldn't either! I never played a scifi game like this when I first saw an Elcor I freaked out, ran away, came back and refused to walk into a small computer room thinking if I got too close to it it would eat me or chase me out! Then I was running around and heard one talk and was like wait that's not some monster that's a person! Then I went back to that room found the elcor and tried to talk to him and was relived when he greeted me.

She was making an observation I think most of her comments are made in that light she's only lived on a human colony and never left Eden Prime she was most likely educated on the alien races in school but she probably also most likely slept through or daydreamed during said class if one was taught at all. Sense Eden was not an alien hub and most likely saw very few alien visitors so her remarks on some level show just how out of the loop she is in certain matters. I bet when we meet her again in ME3 she's seen alot and her dialogue will reflect this she will probably harbor less grudges against turians sense she's meet more who may be decent and she will probably not go about being confused at seeing different type of non bipedal races sense she will know what is a person and what isn't.

People keep harping on how they think Ash is racist but forget racism is all thorughout ME Some Turians we meet are racist against humans, alot of species are racist against the Quarians even going so far as to say if you ware a suit don't apply, Volus are racist against humans, some humans are racist against Asari, and on and on it's a universal fact in game that no one gets along 100% of the time. The various races all have misconceptions about the others Liara states this in ME that people take issue with her species and their melding and keep circulating false info on it, Samara claims such things too, so the world isn't perfect and why should it be if I wanted a harmony game I'd play some E rated game but I don't the complexity of the world and the different views shown in the world liven it up and make it a place to delve into you aren't just saving the good when you save the galaxy but you're also saving the evil people to continue to do their deeds. You don't get to pick which half you save.

[Joshua N7]

Harbinger read that Garrus was coming back and he was like "*sigh* why do we even try".

[KironDrayga]

I know BioWare's mentioned that there will be less permanent squadmates in ME2 than in ME3, but so far the composition of the ME3 squad has me a little concerned. So many returning faces from ME1, and so few that were exclusive to ME2. I'm worried that the nature of ME2's suicide mision will effectively relegate most the ME2 characters to the sidelines, and as a PS3 owner with no access to ME1, it's just unfortunate that the last game is setting up to basically be a big happy ME1 reunion, with ME2's decisions carrying relatively little weight.

[alperez]

KironDrayga wrote...


I know BioWare's mentioned that there will be less permanent squadmates in ME2 than in ME3, but so far the composition of the ME3 squad has me a little concerned. So many returning faces from ME1, and so few that were exclusive to ME2. I'm worried that the nature of ME2's suicide mision will effectively relegate most the ME2 characters to the sidelines, and as a PS3 owner with no access to ME1, it's just unfortunate that the last game is setting up to basically be a big happy ME1 reunion, with ME2's decisions carrying relatively little weight.

What about Tali and Garrus, yeah ok they were in me1 also but they could have died in the suicide mission along with others from me2 and apparently they are being brought back as full squadmates.

I understand and share a concern about who may or may not be full squadmates in me3 but the thing is if they are going to the trouble of bringing back Tali and Garrus despite what could have happened them on the suicide mission, then it stands to reason that we could see a lot more than we expect.

We've received so a few confirmations so far about who is a full squaddie and we shall be getting told some more about squaddies at E3 but just because there hasn't been a me2 specific squadmate confirmed people are up in arms over what is a possibility.

Knowing that potentially dead squadmates (like tali and garrus) are returning should have put this issue to rest but of course it didn't because (insert character name here) wasn't mentioned it means we worry about our own particular favs. Mark my words even if at e3 Miranda or Jack or whoever is confirmed sometime later on these forums someone will post the same as you have. I'm worried about the squad in me3 because character A or character B hasn't been confirmed to be in my squad.

I think its best to adopt a wait and see approach, we'll be getting more info soon and then no doubt more info and potential reveals over the coming months, so we wait and see and if a squadmate from me2 isnt a permanent one and if thats a gamebreaker for you or i then we have our answer.

Personally i'm just happy they confirmed that 2 potential sucide mission corpses will be returning at least that way i can hope for more.