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[Jedi Master of Orion]

This sounds like a question that may have been asked many times before but what was the idea behind what happened to Hawke's siblings?


*Spoilers*






Was anyone else wondering what the point of having them be 1 act characters?

The first time I played DA 2, I left Bethany home at the Deep Roads level and when I got back and she was taken away to the Circle I was annoyed. Since she was still in the character selection screen for the entire game after that i kept watiing for the chance to go see her in the Gallows but she effectively vanishes for virutally the whole rest of the story. It was nice to see her again at the end but since she was gone I figured the choice to leave her behind was the "bad" choice because I never got to see her anymore despite, constantly waiting for her to show up again.

So when I got to the expedition on my second character I jumped at the chance to have her come along figuring she'd be free of the templars and available to acompany me on the rest of my quests. Now I've since come to realize what a comically huge mistake idea that was, but I had also learned about the story of Carver or Bethany having the chance to join the Grey Wardens (I'd also mistakenly thought that always happened if you brought her along for the trip too). But in doing so they also leave for most of the game.

I found the idea of having siblings as party members to be a clever concept, and considering Bioware seemed to be playing up the idea of family being integral to the game, what was the point of haivng Hawke spend inscreasingly little time around them as the game's story moves on?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[Foolsfolly]

A half step?

Like they wanted to make a protagonist with strong family ties but were afraid it took too much role-playing away from the player. So they throw them to the wolves at the nearest wolf resting point?

I don't know. They should have both hung around since they're personal connections to both sides of the finale.

[Knightly_BW]

A voice in my head says it is just for giving player an excuse to choose one side at end game but that is kinda dismissed by the fact that you can make your sibling a warden.
I am more stuck at mage/warrior choice nowadays. I don't like to carry b*tching whining flower pot Bethany around, I wish there was a way to push her in front of ogre whenever you play a warrior/rogue.

[Icy Magebane]

They're only there to make you feel guilty about your decisions. Having a family member on the opposite side of the mage/templar issue just complicates things... I find it somewhat annoying TBH.

Also, having them in the party at any point just ends up robbing you of friendship/rivalry points that could be used on characters who actually stick with you the whole time. They should have been full party members, although I can understand why they are not from a story perspective. Even so, they could have given them some specs once they were a Grey Warden, Templar, or Circle Mage... kind of ridiculous that they never learn any special abilities... bah. Just a lot of missed potential IMO.

[Plaintiff]

Because the story is about Hawke's life, and seeing him experience grief and loss is realistic and humanizing.

[Foolsfolly]

Hey, the single best thing about Carver is when you reject his offer to work together and it looks like it's brother vs brother in the finale.

....you never fight though. I pushed hard for it, because the melodrama of killing your younger brother who's always resented you during a massive battle between selfish and stupid sounded really appealing to me.

But still, Carver gets the best dialogue he's given the whole game in that situation. It felt heavy, weighty, like even though Hawke's family has been ruined this was the actual closing of that family.

Best part of the finale.

Well, apart from the Chantry explosion. The game's cinematics are low-key that that felt HUGE like an atom bomb going off. The last time we saw anything visually interesting was Flemeth doing a dive bomb, standing on her hindlegs, and transforming all while holding onto a burning Darkspawn.

That was epic.

[Camilladilla]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hey, the single best thing about Carver is when you reject his offer to work together and it looks like it's brother vs brother in the finale.

....you never fight though. I pushed hard for it, because the melodrama of killing your younger brother who's always resented you during a massive battle between selfish and stupid sounded really appealing to me.

But still, Carver gets the best dialogue he's given the whole game in that situation. It felt heavy, weighty, like even though Hawke's family has been ruined this was the actual closing of that family.

Best part of the finale.

Well, apart from the Chantry explosion. The game's cinematics are low-key that that felt HUGE like an atom bomb going off. The last time we saw anything visually interesting was Flemeth doing a dive bomb, standing on her hindlegs, and transforming all while holding onto a burning Darkspawn.

That was epic.

Are you the real Foolsfolly? Praise for DA2? Now the world's coming to an end.

Just wanted to point out some unintended (or maybe not so) impact of LOSING YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY has on people who romanced Anders and that oh so critical decision at the end. I know I wasn't the only one who spared the crazy apostate mage out of pure selfishness, Hawke has lost everyone and by that time he/she's not about to lose Anders as well.

[Foolsfolly]

Are you the real Foolsfolly? Praise for DA2? Now the world's coming to an end.

I played the game 3 times. So the game does things right.

I've posted many of the things they've gotten right. Dialogue, characters, Act 2, gameplay, the mini-map, potions, skill trees, etc. etc.

But there are some big unavoidable flaws in this game. None bigger than the final act's lack of personal stake or how each side of the argument cannot be responsible for their actions. It's either blood magic or idols. Or the poor pacing of the storyline where we don't meet characters earlier enough or delve into their character or motivations. Or how Act 1 lacks motivation and you just wander around like you're in the noob zones of an MMORPG.

The rest of the problems are those you'd likely see in a rushed game, including boring level design, lifeless hubs, and the reusing of the same handful of maps.

[Knightly_BW]

Camilladilla wrote...

Just wanted to point out some unintended (or maybe not so) impact of LOSING YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY has on people who romanced Anders and that oh so critical decision at the end. I know I wasn't the only one who spared the crazy apostate mage out of pure selfishness, Hawke has lost everyone and by that time he/she's not about to lose Anders as well.

Actually those losts provide a good turning points while shaping up your Hawke's life.

My happy-go-lucky (sarcastic Hawke) rogue got little bit serious after Leandra and decided to side with templars in the end.

My Carver like pro-templar Hawke got more annoyed with mages/magic in years (never used mages in party). To an extend in the end he even sacrificed Bethany to get rid of evil in his family. If he could marry Meredith they would make a good couple.

[Maria Caliban]

Foolsfolly wrote...

A half step?

I thought the beginning was good but then the family element just peters out and dies.

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

A half step?

Like they wanted to make a protagonist with strong family ties but were afraid it took too much role-playing away from the player. So they throw them to the wolves at the nearest wolf resting point?

I don't know. They should have both hung around since they're personal connections to both sides of the finale.

If they were worried about that, they should have just given us some times in Lothering post-Ostagar, pre-flight and then killed the whole lot of them off right there. Or just said "screw it" and made Hawke just a random member of a group of refugees, which would have the added benefit of allowing multiple races again and silencing the people who complained about that. 

This half-assed approach just winds up pissing people off, esepcially after the family connection was talked up during development. 

[TobiTobsen]

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the story is about Hawke's life, and seeing him experience grief and loss is realistic and humanizing.

Meh... Hawke is getting kicked in the balls all the time. That's not really realistic if you ask me. It's just as if Hawke has one giant "kick me" sign on the back and fate is happy to oblige.

Look you have two siblings! Whups, one is dead!
Look you still have one sibling! Whups, he/she is gone/dead!
Look you still have your mother! Whups, she is dead!
Look you still have your friends! Whups, the pirate betrayed you, the mage betrayed you and some others turn on you for your decision!

I mean my life is not all sunshine and rainbows but there are always good and bad things. Hawke has only bad.

[sten_super]

Similar to the OP, I spent the whole of my first playthrough waiting for Bethany to come back. Ultimately, her presence at the end game was what tipped my decision in favour of the mages, so I suppose she 'worked' for me.

Having said that, I do find the way they use them odd. I had her in my party for Act I, built up some kind of emotional bond with her, and then she disappears, to only reappear for brief (and somewhat bizarre) cameos at the end of the next two Acts. I think they'd carry more weight in my decision making if I knew them better, and knew their feelings. Okay I knew Bethany wanted to survive, but not really whether she liked the Circle of Magi, thought it was a good idea, hated it, etc. I think I would feel much less rail-roaded towards a decision (pro-mage if Bethany lives, pro-templar if Carver) if I knew these people's views and their experiences.

[brightblueink]

Camilladilla wrote...

Just wanted to point out some unintended (or maybe not so) impact of LOSING YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY has on people who romanced Anders and that oh so critical decision at the end. I know I wasn't the only one who spared the crazy apostate mage out of pure selfishness, Hawke has lost everyone and by that time he/she's not about to lose Anders as well.

Oh yeah, by the time Act III came around I knew that my Hawke would side with the Mages because of Bethany, and (having been spoiled on the BOOM) knew that she'd probably run off with Anders because in her mind, he mattered more to her than the Chantry.

Of course, I'd established her as selfish pretty early on anyway...but having her lose so much of her family helped.

[Crunchyinmilk]

The siblings do work towards investing Hawke personally in the mage vs templar debate. Your first dies to the darkspawn, which according to Chantry law are bred of magic fuelled hubris.

In the pursuit of money & influence as a shield against the templars, for your own or their protection, you go on a lucrative expedition that can result in their death, curse (warden) or imprisonment (Carver joining the cult is still imprisonment).

Then your mom is killed by a mage in a bit of a kicked the dog fashion.

When it comes to the crunch, if your sibling is still alive they make you justify your ultimate decision on a personal level, which is the lesser of two evils to support. To their face.

I didn't mind their absence from the party so much as their complete removal in act 2 and most of 3, no matter what you did. I would have liked to be able to talk to Bethany or Carver in the gallows a couple of times. See how they where handling the issue first hand, but instead they're just cut away, awkwardly.

[Blastaz]

Yeah I was very surprised when I finally went to visit the circle in Act 3 for Meredith's/Orsino's quests only to find that Bethany was nowhere to be seen.

It also sucked all the drama out of the showdown with Orsino, when you see Bethany standing side by side with him and then it's like oh look he really is a crazed blood mage lols I guess I'll help you Hawke.

[Huntress]

The idea was to please people who wanted to see the death of character they liked and loved, this people also wanted a betrayal from close members in their party.
I always said that will sucks, but, thats what we got. The game is not grey or dark is depressing.

[Plaintiff]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the story is about Hawke's life, and seeing him experience grief and loss is realistic and humanizing.

Meh... Hawke is getting kicked in the balls all the time. That's not really realistic if you ask me. It's just as if Hawke has one giant "kick me" sign on the back and fate is happy to oblige.

Look you have two siblings! Whups, one is dead!
Look you still have one sibling! Whups, he/she is gone/dead!
Look you still have your mother! Whups, she is dead!
Look you still have your friends! Whups, the pirate betrayed you, the mage betrayed you and some others turn on you for your decision!

I mean my life is not all sunshine and rainbows but there are always good and bad things. Hawke has only bad.

Considering the sort of life Hawke leads, I'm surprised he doesn't lose loved ones more often. As for party member betrayal, well, your mileage may vary.

[Cutlass Jack]

Well on my playthrough I got to see Bethany quite a bit after act 1. (Warden Route) Not to full party status of course. But she was there at the end of act II, and with Nathaniel in the deep roads.

And after giving Anders the Murder knife, I barely walk around the corner and there she was exactly when I needed her most. I felt the whole thing played out rather satisfying to me.

Of course I would have loved having her around all game too. But if she were there, I would never have made much use of Anders. Which was important to the overall tale.

[ReallyRue]

I thought it was supposed to be so that Hawke had a link to mage/Templar issues. Either through the apostate sister or by being a mage. But, that doesn't fit so well.

On my second playthrough, Bethany died in the Deep Roads, meaning neither siblings nor mages had much of an impact on my Hawke, despite her having to sort out that mess for several years. I always hoped they would have a bigger role in Act 2 or 3.

[Beerfish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

A half step?

I thought the beginning was good but then the family element just peters out and dies.

That last word in the literal sense for my last character.

[Annarl]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because the story is about Hawke's life, and seeing him experience grief and loss is realistic and humanizing.

Meh... Hawke is getting kicked in the balls all the time. That's not really realistic if you ask me. It's just as if Hawke has one giant "kick me" sign on the back and fate is happy to oblige.

Look you have two siblings! Whups, one is dead!
Look you still have one sibling! Whups, he/she is gone/dead!
Look you still have your mother! Whups, she is dead!
Look you still have your friends! Whups, the pirate betrayed you, the mage betrayed you and some others turn on you for your decision!

I mean my life is not all sunshine and rainbows but there are always good and bad things. Hawke has only bad.

I agree.  I feel the family (and the companion) angst  was overdone.  It felt like a really bad B movie, a really bad one, after a while.  

[Shadowrun1177]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

The siblings do work towards investing Hawke personally in the mage vs templar debate. Your first dies to the darkspawn, which according to Chantry law are bred of magic fuelled hubris.

In the pursuit of money & influence as a shield against the templars, for your own or their protection, you go on a lucrative expedition that can result in their death, curse (warden) or imprisonment (Carver joining the cult is still imprisonment).

Then your mom is killed by a mage in a bit of a kicked the dog fashion.

When it comes to the crunch, if your sibling is still alive they make you justify your ultimate decision on a personal level, which is the lesser of two evils to support. To their face.

I didn't mind their absence from the party so much as their complete removal in act 2 and most of 3, no matter what you did. I would have liked to be able to talk to Bethany or Carver in the gallows a couple of times. See how they where handling the issue first hand, but instead they're just cut away, awkwardly.

I don't agree with you about the siblings or mother invest Hawke in the mage vs templar debate. I've beaten the game a few times in different classes, and honestly by Act 3 I could care less about the whole mage vs templar thing. On my mage with Carver as a templar I thought who cares let them kill all the mages why should I get involved if they come after me next then I'll worry about it. On my warrior with Bethany in the Circle I only got involved to protect Bethany but didn't feel any real investment in it. On my rogue with Bethany as a Warden I thought why get involved heck why is Hawke even still in Kirkwall I would left after all the things that happen. If either surviving sibling had died in the deep roads I would of felt the same, why is Hawke still in Kirkwall after all the BS.

[Kimberly Shaw]

The family thing was handled horribly. There was no reason you should let Bethany be taken from your character in the first place (unless she wants to go, which I think she did in my play through), nor any reason to not keep her when you rescue her in Act 3 from the Templar/Mage group unless she wants to go back to it. I think she wanted to turn herself in because she was tired of hiding and bringing danger. And once she's there it's not SO bad, but why should she want to stay if I can get her out without fear of retribution? Makes no sense. When mother dies, I can't even GO TALK TO HER despite that my mother could while alive and even my low life Uncle with no connection to anything or anyone can go talk to her in the Gallows. So stupid.

My mother and I never bonded in the game, i wasn't moved by the mother death plot line, it just felt forced that I couldn't save her or do anything about it but I didn't care either way. The game didn't make me connect to her at all.

Carver was just a douche, and yes, he was done the best of all the characters because I think my relationship with him was realistic. He was annoyed at being in my shadow, and hated when I left him behind from the Deeproads, and because I was a mage he went to go be a Templar (anti-mage) and didn't want to do anything with me. The only thing that was suckage was when my mother died I couldn't go talk to him about it. But almost understandable. And in the end he came around to my side. I think the Carver sibling story was the best of the 3 by far.

[shumworld]

I was hopping for a Carver vs Robert Hawke at the end of the game. It would of been epic.