864 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

There are a few different possible scenarios:

1. It's a Reaper Device - can cause indoctrination. So far we've never had any team work on an in-tact reaper-related device without getting indoctrinated, and figuring out how to avoid that doesn't seem to be Cerberus's specialty.

2. It's not a Reaper Device - the collector tech is just based on a warped version of the Prothean tech. In this case, it might not be the most useful against the Reapers. They might have given the collectors relatively "weak ****." that is to say, stuff that, if it fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't be devastating to the Reapers. They gave the collectors guns for which I had a specific, easily implemented countermeasure, etc.. If I were the Reapers that's what I do, but then again, maybe I'm smarter than a galactic race of super-genius thinking machines. I can live with that.

3. It's not a Reaper device, but it contains valuable weapons to be used against the Reapers. The drawback: all these weapons must be fueled by sentient goo.  Ok, if there's a slot on the Reaper ship, and you throw a Batarian in there, and out pops a machine gun... do you trust TIM not to just keep throwing Batarians in there until he has more guns than he can carry? Ok... now say that instead of Batarians, it requires humans. I still think he'd pitch some dudes in there. And if it comes out later that we've been pitching dudes into goo vats, our reputation as a race is shot forever. (also, a LOT of stuff kind of implies that this is the case... the collector assault rifle shoots TEETH, after all. /shudder)

4. It's not a Reaper Device, and it contains valuable tech, that can be produced without using sentient goo.

This is the hardest one, but I still don't want to do it. I think getting the valuable tech will take years, and a lot of our top scientists will be diverted to it for a long time. It weakens our focus on other things that may be more important: like studying Ilos, and trying to learn to build our own relays, which I consider to be the most important future project. I just... don't like putting as much of our brainpower to this one end as would be required to make the kind of huge strides we'd need for it to be useful against the Reapers.

So basically, in all scenarios other than #4, the Collector base hurts us more than it helps us. Now I"m not going to lay odds on which of those four scenarios is the case, but I can't imagine why you'd think scenario #4 is more likely than all the other ones combined.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Seboist wrote...


The mission in the derelict Reaper got the IFF in the hands of Shep, so that was a SUCCESS too.

Tell that to the poor schmucks sitting on pikes - I'm sure they were wondering as their brains were scrambled why the hell TiM didn't set up a program that could prevent such a thing from happening.

Is your argument going to be that, if there are deaths in the precess, a project is an ultimate failure regardless?

We can provide a multitude of reasons why TIM did not, could not, or would not. None of them change whether the goals were met, only the costs with which they were achieved.

I'm not sure why you're asking questions, my point is perfectly clear.  From the point of view of the poor sods who died, there was nothing successful about the mission - and it most certainly points at the ineptitude of TiM's project administration.
Indoctrination?  What's that? Herp ah Derp.

Joe Schmuck walks up to the Cerberus recruiting booth:  "Hey!  Wow!  You're benefits are awesome!  Why is that?"
Cerberus recruiter: "They're awesome because you won't live long enough to collect them. Bwahahahahaha!"

Before you blather on about Cerberus completing the IFF yes I realize that yada yada yada.  By some miracle they came up with the IFF before they lost their minds to indoctrination.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...
They moved to the Geth and successfully controlled them.

I wouldn't call that event "successful" at all. Why? Well, good luck recreating it.

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Before you blather on about Cerberus completing the IFF yes I realize that yada yada yada.  By some miracle they came up with the IFF before they lost their minds to indoctrination.

Therefor, they completed their task and the men who were sent there died heroes because they assisted in the destruction of the Collectors.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yeah, it's a success. Until the geth adapts and creates countermeasures for it. Which they most likely will, because it's what they do. Then it's pointless.

They weren't in a rush to do that in Overlord, it seems. Considering Geth are supposed to be able to create countermeasures in seconds, though they were firmly under David's control for the entire events of Overlord (and even a bit before then).

Almostfaceman wrote...

Um, no, Overlord was not a success.  The goal was to control/communicate with the Geth - that didn't happen. 

So what was David doing with the green-eyed Geth? Paying them to shoot Shepard?

Phaedon wrote...

So, you are basically saying that they tried to use the Heretics as weapons?

They've been working on building supersoldiers to save human lives since ME1. That was their purpose in experimenting with Toombs and the Thresher Maws and with the Rachni, though both were abandoned when they realized it wouldn't work.

They moved to the Geth and successfully controlled them.

What part of uncontrollable human/VI hybrid do you not understand?

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I wouldn't call that event "successful" at all. Why? Well, good luck recreating it.

No need to recreate it, I left David in the chair.

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

What part of uncontrollable human/VI hybrid do you not understand?

The part where I got an email from Dr.Archer immediately after Overlord.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Before you blather on about Cerberus completing the IFF yes I realize that yada yada yada.  By some miracle they came up with the IFF before they lost their minds to indoctrination.

Therefor, they completed their task and the men who were sent there died heroes because they assisted in the destruction of the Collectors.

That pretty much goes without saying Captain Obvious. 

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The part where I got an email from Dr.Archer immediately after Overlord.

The same doctor that thought that hooking up his brother to the machine would go well.

[aimlessgun]

RiouHotaru wrote...

But most of them don't notice the subtle changes in their own personality.  Kenson started questioning the project after exposure to the artifact, and has changed her mind about the Project completely by the time you get to her.  She didn't even notice the change herself, and by the time she might have it was already far too late.

Also, simply because the narrative didn't explicitly state safeguards doesn't mean none existed.  It's simply the case that the safeguards do NOT work.

Apologies, I edited stuff in while you were typing this response and then had to go to class. What I added was a suggestion for a 'project control' that stayed far away from whatever artifact and monitored the psychological health of the research team.

No, the narrative did not explicity state what safegaurds they took. But it does clearly show that they didn't take the most obvious safegaurds, IE team rotation or telepresence. And visually they represented the artifact without any safegaurds at all (probably laziness, a problem with Arrival. I'm sure with more time they could have modeled some token containment stuff, that looks like they tried but not like something that would have worked).

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

That pretty much goes without saying Captain Obvious. 

You're dismissing stuff to support anti-Cerberus.
It's not that simple, so don't bother calling me "Captain Obvious".

Someone With Mass wrote...

The same doctor that thought that hooking up his brother to the machine would go well.

He's unethical, yes. Though we're not arguing how ethical the experiment was.

[EHondaMashButton]

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

The Protheans used the citadel without understanding it an ran into the reapers
The Citadel races messed around with mass relays and ran into the Rachni.
The Salarians gave the Krogan advanced tech and less hostile planets.
The Quarians made the Geth.

Just IMAGINE the cleanup from Cerberus F'n around with reaper super-science.

We'd have some Cerberus-created Rachni/Biotic/Geth/Reaper abomination on our hands.

[Giggles_Manically]

Hark the butt-hurt Cerberus fan boys screamed:
Ruined be the brand new game!

[Someone With Mass]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

The Protheans used the citadel without understanding it an ran into the reapers
The Citadel races messed around with mass relays and ran into the Rachni.
The Salarians gave the Krogan advanced tech and less hostile planets.
The Quarians made the Geth.

Just IMAGINE the cleanup from Cerberus F'n around with reaper super-science.

We'd have some Cerberus-created Rachni/Biotic/Geth/Reaper abomination on our hands.

Not if Shepard wipes them out first. 

[Dave of Canada]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

And when they finally understand it, they help us greatly against the Reapers.

Thannix Cannon.
EDI.
The Conduit.
ect

The Reapers would've won if the Protheans didn't investigate the Relays and find out how they worked to recreate it.

[aimlessgun]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There are a few different possible scenarios:

1. It's a Reaper Device - can cause indoctrination. So far we've never had any team work on an in-tact reaper-related device without getting indoctrinated, and figuring out how to avoid that doesn't seem to be Cerberus's specialty.

2. It's not a Reaper Device - the collector tech is just based on a warped version of the Prothean tech. In this case, it might not be the most useful against the Reapers. They might have given the collectors relatively "weak ****." that is to say, stuff that, if it fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't be devastating to the Reapers. They gave the collectors guns for which I had a specific, easily implemented countermeasure, etc.. If I were the Reapers that's what I do, but then again, maybe I'm smarter than a galactic race of super-genius thinking machines. I can live with that.

3. It's not a Reaper device, but it contains valuable weapons to be used against the Reapers. The drawback: all these weapons must be fueled by sentient goo.  Ok, if there's a slot on the Reaper ship, and you throw a Batarian in there, and out pops a machine gun... do you trust TIM not to just keep throwing Batarians in there until he has more guns than he can carry? Ok... now say that instead of Batarians, it requires humans. I still think he'd pitch some dudes in there. And if it comes out later that we've been pitching dudes into goo vats, our reputation as a race is shot forever. (also, a LOT of stuff kind of implies that this is the case... the collector assault rifle shoots TEETH, after all. /shudder)

4. It's not a Reaper Device, and it contains valuable tech, that can be produced without using sentient goo.

This is the hardest one, but I still don't want to do it. I think getting the valuable tech will take years, and a lot of our top scientists will be diverted to it for a long time. It weakens our focus on other things that may be more important: like studying Ilos, and trying to learn to build our own relays, which I consider to be the most important future project. I just... don't like putting as much of our brainpower to this one end as would be required to make the kind of huge strides we'd need for it to be useful against the Reapers.

So basically, in all scenarios other than #4, the Collector base hurts us more than it helps us. Now I"m not going to lay odds on which of those four scenarios is the case, but I can't imagine why you'd think scenario #4 is more likely than all the other ones combined.

It was building a Reaper, so I think by definition it is a Reaper device

Reaper device = indoctrination = assumption on your part.

And I think you're trying way too hard to justify your decision given option 4. You have to assume a lot of negatives to think that scientists will make more progress without advanced tech to study.

EDIT: Oh my god I just woke up and realized we made another 10 page thread about the base decision, and I suspect that I have had this exact same discussion with you before. Groundhog day aaagghhhh

Modifié par aimlessgun, 08 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Hark the butt-hurt Cerberus fan boys screamed:
Ruined be the brand new game!

Excuse me for liking a faction in a game and supporting them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm not sure why you're asking questions, my point is perfectly clear.  From the point of view of the poor sods who died, there was nothing successful about the mission - and it most certainly points at the ineptitude of TiM's project administration.
Indoctrination?  What's that? Herp ah Derp.

From the pov of almost anyone who gets the short end of the stick in any circumstance, it's unfair. That's not an argument by validity, but by opinion of those affected. Which really just goes on an assumption of how they feel than anything else.

Joe Schmuck walks up to the Cerberus recruiting booth:  "Hey!  Wow!  You're benefits are awesome!  Why is that?"
Cerberus recruiter: "They're awesome because you won't live long enough to collect them. Bwahahahahaha!"

Argument by fanfiction now?

Before you blather on about Cerberus completing the IFF yes I realize that yada yada yada.  By some miracle they came up with the IFF before they lost their minds to indoctrination.

What makes it qualify as a 'miracle'?

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

That pretty much goes without saying Captain Obvious. 

You're dismissing stuff to support anti-Cerberus.
It's not that simple, so don't bother calling me "Captain Obvious".

Someone With Mass wrote...

The same doctor that thought that hooking up his brother to the machine would go well.

He's unethical, yes. Though we're not arguing how ethical the experiment was.

Pointing out you pointed out the obvious is not dismissing anything - and NO David may be under Archer's care (if that's chosen) but that does not mean they've figured out how to have David control the Geth or talk to them - without David going mad.  Nothing in the Illusive man's email indicates they've surmounted this hurdle.  If anything, it proves the project is ongoing - not a success.

I've just been made aware of the transgressions that occurred during Project Overlord. Dr. Archer went too far in his experiments. That said, I admire your resolve in handling the situation. David will get the best medical care Cerberus can provide, and his talents will also remain vital to our understanding of the geth. I appreciate you keeping our overall goals in mind, even under difficult moral circumstances. That's why I brought you on board.

[aimlessgun]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

And when they finally understand it, they help us greatly against the Reapers.

Thannix Cannon.
EDI.
The Conduit.
ect

The Reapers would've won if the Protheans didn't investigate the Relays and find out how they worked to recreate it.

Exactly. And don't just discount all the tech that is helpful for people just because it isn't front and center of a game focused on other things.

And how are you supposed to understand something without studying it? There's a very superstitious, middle ages mentality about "not messing with stuff you don't understand", which reminds me uncomfortably of the ignorant view of science most people in the United States hold.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

And when they finally understand it, they help us greatly against the Reapers.

Thannix Cannon.
EDI.
The Conduit.
ect

The Reapers would've won if the Protheans didn't investigate the Relays and find out how they worked to recreate it.

Cerberus is eons from coming up with something useful like that at the rate they're going at now. Not to mention that they're pretty much out of money and resources at the end of Retribution. Let those who actually know what they're doing do the science.