864 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm not sure why you're asking questions, my point is perfectly clear.  From the point of view of the poor sods who died, there was nothing successful about the mission - and it most certainly points at the ineptitude of TiM's project administration.
Indoctrination?  What's that? Herp ah Derp.

From the pov of almost anyone who gets the short end of the stick in any circumstance, it's unfair. That's not an argument by validity, but by opinion of those affected. Which really just goes on an assumption of how they feel than anything else.

Joe Schmuck walks up to the Cerberus recruiting booth:  "Hey!  Wow!  You're benefits are awesome!  Why is that?"
Cerberus recruiter: "They're awesome because you won't live long enough to collect them. Bwahahahahaha!"

Argument by fanfiction now?

Before you blather on about Cerberus completing the IFF yes I realize that yada yada yada.  By some miracle they came up with the IFF before they lost their minds to indoctrination.

What makes it qualify as a 'miracle'?

You're still here?  Move along, nothing to see here.  Again, this is obviously not an argument that the mission to produce an IFF was a failure.  If you don't like my fanfic - don't read it.  If you don't consider it a miracle, that's awesome.  It doesn't change my point that the guys who died in finding the IFF won't consider the mission a success.  Since we both agree on that point, move along.

P.S. we don't have to assume how they feel - watch the terminal videos during the mission.

[Dean_the_Young]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

This entire game is based on paying the price for messing around with technology/civilizations you don't fully understand.

The Protheans used the citadel without understanding it an ran into the reapers
The Citadel races messed around with mass relays and ran into the Rachni.
The Salarians gave the Krogan advanced tech and less hostile planets.
The Quarians made the Geth.

And yet, had no one done the research, it is in no way apparent that they would have been better off.

Had the Protheans not studied the Reaper's relays, they never would have developed the Conduit.
Had the Citadel races not messed around with the Mass Relays, the indoctrinated Rachni would have continued to build up until a point where they could not have been defeated.
Had the Salarians not uplifted the Krogan, they would have still faced the Rachni.


Why you bring up the Quarians and the Geth, which was their own development and not the replication of another civiliation's tech, is a bit puzzling to the metaphore.

Just IMAGINE the cleanup from Cerberus F'n around with reaper super-science.

Strategically minimal, both in prospect (likely situations) and actually (Retribution).

We'd have some Cerberus-created Rachni/Biotic/Geth/Reaper abomination on our hands.

And he got brought down with an old guy with a shotgun.

[aimlessgun]

GUYS.

We made another retarded 10 page thread on the base decision.

A thread where every single point of discussion is based on assumptions and interpretations, and nobody can be correct.

What is wrong with us?

[Dave of Canada]

Last post for a while, have to go.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cerberus is eons from coming up with something useful like that at the rate they're going at now.

EDI?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There are a few different possible scenarios:

1. It's a Reaper Device - can cause indoctrination. So far we've never had any team work on an in-tact reaper-related device without getting indoctrinated, and figuring out how to avoid that doesn't seem to be Cerberus's specialty.

2. It's not a Reaper Device - the collector tech is just based on a warped version of the Prothean tech. In this case, it might not be the most useful against the Reapers. They might have given the collectors relatively "weak ****." that is to say, stuff that, if it fell into the wrong hands, wouldn't be devastating to the Reapers. They gave the collectors guns for which I had a specific, easily implemented countermeasure, etc.. If I were the Reapers that's what I do, but then again, maybe I'm smarter than a galactic race of super-genius thinking machines. I can live with that.

3. It's not a Reaper device, but it contains valuable weapons to be used against the Reapers. The drawback: all these weapons must be fueled by sentient goo.  Ok, if there's a slot on the Reaper ship, and you throw a Batarian in there, and out pops a machine gun... do you trust TIM not to just keep throwing Batarians in there until he has more guns than he can carry? Ok... now say that instead of Batarians, it requires humans. I still think he'd pitch some dudes in there. And if it comes out later that we've been pitching dudes into goo vats, our reputation as a race is shot forever. (also, a LOT of stuff kind of implies that this is the case... the collector assault rifle shoots TEETH, after all. /shudder)

4. It's not a Reaper Device, and it contains valuable tech, that can be produced without using sentient goo.

This is the hardest one, but I still don't want to do it. I think getting the valuable tech will take years, and a lot of our top scientists will be diverted to it for a long time. It weakens our focus on other things that may be more important: like studying Ilos, and trying to learn to build our own relays, which I consider to be the most important future project. I just... don't like putting as much of our brainpower to this one end as would be required to make the kind of huge strides we'd need for it to be useful against the Reapers.

So basically, in all scenarios other than #4, the Collector base hurts us more than it helps us. Now I"m not going to lay odds on which of those four scenarios is the case, but I can't imagine why you'd think scenario #4 is more likely than all the other ones combined.

It was building a Reaper, so I think by definition it is a Reaper device

Reaper device = indoctrination = assumption on your part.

And I think you're trying way too hard to justify your decision given option 4. You have to assume a lot of negatives to think that scientists will make more progress without advanced tech to study.

To clarify, when I said "Reaper Device" i meant a device created using the same technology as Sovereign, the Derelict Reaper, and Object Rho. Basically, scenario 1 is just "is it capable of indoctrination?" which is a quality I believe is shared by all true, in-tact Reaper Devices. Do we have an example of an in-tact "reaper device" that doesn't cause indoctrination? I haven't read the books.

I think that a collector device that is used to BUILD a Reaper may not contain the same technology that a full-grown Reaper has. Sort of like capture a factory that was once used to assemble the final pieces of bombs - it wouldn't be able to neccessarily produce the jets capable of dropping the bombs, or the targeting systems required to aim them correctly. So, unless the collector base is a "Reaper Device" similar to Object Rho, I don't see why it would have all the same components as a fully grown, fully armed Reaper would.

And I admit that my response to Scenario 4 is a purely ideological one - like the Geth's decision not to follow Sovereign. It actually might have helped them reach their end goal to do so, and it definitely would have made them stronger. Their decision not to follow the old machines was simply a moral one, which weakened them substantially, probably, and denied them access to a lot of technology they would have found to be valuable.  Similarly, I'd agree that, if scenario 4 is true, we'd likely benefit short term from collector tech.

If we had any reason to suspect that Scenario 4 was the most likely scenario, I'd be much much more likely to keep the base. As it is, we have absolutely no evidence in any of these directions, so I destroy it even on some of my Renegade playthroughs - it's the only Renegade decision that I think isn't in any way "rational." 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What makes you say that Cerberus doesn't know what it's doing? They made EDI after all and also recovered the IFF. They got through the Omega-4 relay, something no organization in the history of the galaxy has ever managed.

Their assets on the Collector base were untouched and will greatly help them recover their standing.

You mean the same IFF that contained a Reaper virus and put the Normandy in great danger while killing even more Cerberus servants? I loved that part.

Also, I don't think they can come up with something good from that base that'll help against the ancient machine race armada of dreadnoughts within months. And I really don't think the rest of the galaxy will care about what they have to offer either. Not while aforementioned dreadnoughts are landing in their backyards.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

mrsph wrote...

Same reason you weren't indoctrinated on the Reaper.

It takes time.

Indeed. All indications are that Indoctrination takes a few hours at the absolute minimum, a few days on average, and the time varies based on the person - there was one doctor who resisted it for a long time (possibly even months), 'til they (they being Cerberus) pumped him full of red sand, which apparently reduces your resistance. But individuals with long-term resistance are rare, it seems.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 avril 2011 - 10:43 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EDI?

Can she help against the two kilometer long dreadnoughts that have millions of years more experience than her? I didn't know that.

[Xewaka]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
EDI?

Can she help against the two kilometer long dreadnoughts that have millions of years more experience than her? I didn't know that.

Well, she hacked through the Collector Base security, and helped defeat the Collector ship, both of which are allegedly Reaper tech. That has to count for something.

[aimlessgun]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

To clarify, when I said "Reaper Device" i meant a device created using the same technology as Sovereign, the Derelict Reaper, and Object Rho. Basically, scenario 1 is just "is it capable of indoctrination?" which is a quality I believe is shared by all true, in-tact Reaper Devices. Do we have an example of an in-tact "reaper device" that doesn't cause indoctrination? I haven't read the books.

I think that a collector device that is used to BUILD a Reaper may not contain the same technology that a full-grown Reaper has. Sort of like capture a factory that was once used to assemble the final pieces of bombs - it wouldn't be able to neccessarily produce the jets capable of dropping the bombs, or the targeting systems required to aim them correctly. So, unless the collector base is a "Reaper Device" similar to Object Rho, I don't see why it would have all the same components as a fully grown, fully armed Reaper would.

And I admit that my response to Scenario 4 is a purely ideological one - like the Geth's decision not to follow Sovereign. It actually might have helped them reach their end goal to do so, and it definitely would have made them stronger. Their decision not to follow the old machines was simply a moral one, which weakened them substantially, probably, and denied them access to a lot of technology they would have found to be valuable.  Similarly, I'd agree that, if scenario 4 is true, we'd likely benefit short term from collector tech.

If we had any reason to suspect that Scenario 4 was the most likely scenario, I'd be much much more likely to keep the base. As it is, we have absolutely no evidence in any of these directions, so I destroy it even on some of my Renegade playthroughs - it's the only Renegade decision that I think isn't in any way "rational." 

Well, if it can theoretically produce a Reaper, which counts as a fully functioning Reaper device, it should be able to lead us to 'Reaper Devices', though if that requires producing a Reaper then you may be dealing with goo, though theres a high chance of using computer modeling to get there as well. Your analogy sounds like it should be, we captured a jet fighter factory.

Well I was about to continue with a long response, but at this point I think the sanest conclusion is: "we cannot know, and we cannot even know which decision is the most reasonable because each of us has completely different assumptions about how the ME universe operates". And thus we must wait for ME3.

I mean, even ensconced in the base decision as a whole is another huge debate over whether TIM must get a monopoly on the base, a debate once again based on a huge variety of assumptions about the ME universe. It's such a mind-boggling pile of fanfiction we are using to argue with each other.

So I guess it's lucky that this is a single player game where we will eventually win, so everyone gets to be right! (even though we'll never admit it to the opposite side on the forums)

Modifié par aimlessgun, 08 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No evidence is ever given, ever, at any point, that the Collector base indoctrinates people. When are you people going to stop writing fan-fiction to justify your decisions?

Nothing says that it doesn't, either. Stop writing fanfiction for your own benefits yourself.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No evidence is ever given, ever, at any point, that the Collector base indoctrinates people. When are you people going to stop writing fan-fiction to justify your decisions?

Get off your high horse and quit tryin' to order people around.  Don't like it?  Move along.

[Almostfaceman]

mrsph wrote...

Reapers love setting up booby traps.

Yes, they are cheeky devils.

[Sith_exar_kun]

MisterJB wrote...

Keeping the base was always a BAD idea, IMO.

this.

[Someone With Mass]

And even if Cerberus manages to find something of good use against the Reapers, do you really think they're going to give up that power after the Reapers are dealt with?

I think they'll become a problem if that happens.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 08 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[aimlessgun]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And even if Cerberus manages to find something of good use against the Reapers, do you really think they're going to give up that power after the Reapers are dealt with?

I think they'd become a problem.

You do not have to assume that Cerberus will have a monopoly on the base when you are in-character making this decision at the time. You are railroaded into it by the game, so it is only contigent from a metagaming standpoint.

[Dave of Canada]

yay wifi for now while waiting in line sorry for any typing errors

Someone With Mass wrote...

And even if Cerberus manages to find something of good use against the Reapers, do you really think they're going to give up that power after the Reapers are dealt with?

so you rather risk the galaxy being destroyed because you dont trust cerberus after the reapers are done and dealt with