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[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

BTW, Omega was not made by the Reapers.

Retribution novel. Reaper-Grayson investigates Omega and is pleased with how the people are settling in.

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.

Omega was not made by the Reapers. The Omega 4 Realay, on the other hand...

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 avril 2011 - 12:12 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Omega was not made by the Reapers.

Another novel retcon, I guess? /shrug

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 avril 2011 - 12:12 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I'm talking about some Scientist other than Mordin coming up to you and saying

"So, we've developed a way to make a goo reaper. It'll probably be a pretty awesome weapon, and I don't know if we can beat the Reapers otherwise. Should we make it?"

In real life there's rarely a point where we know exactly "Ok, if we do X we will win." In this scenario, it's possible you might be able to win without the goo reaper, but murdering billions of people will probably increase your chances of winning by some unknown amount. Nobody can tell you how much that amount is... it's possible that you can win without it. It's possible it only increases your win percentage by 2%. It's possible that without it you will lose.

If people would go for that in a non 'roleplaying as psychopath Shepard' capacity, that is quite disturbing.

(though if +2% is the minimum increase in win %, and your previous win % was 0.5%, then you've just quintupled your chances!)

PS: Why the 'other than Mordin' caveat? Are you saying that if Mordin suggested it, you'd go along with it?

PPS: Best solution is to synthesize the organic goo material in factories/labs, which the collectors didn't do because I assume they wanted to go about it in the most evil way possible.

Here's the thing - I don't think it would be Shepard's choice to make. It'd probably be left up to someone much crazier and more ruthless, even if the base was in the possession of the alliance. But yeah, a surprising number of people are willing to do it.

I think the goo needs to be sentient at the time of goo-ifying. That's why they don't just use Collectors or clones. It's complicated, but it's the solution that makes the most sense. I think they are saving records of our thought processes and memories, but transforming those from actual sentience into an advanced, soulless form of processing. I also think they use our different structural data for possible future slave-race genemods - like they need data from left handed people and right handed people, sociopaths and introverts, old and young, etc. I don't think it's evil for the sake of evil, I think it's evil for the sake of efficiency, which is much more insidious.

And the Mordin thing was sort of a joke... I've said before that I pretty much implicitly trust Mordin on science, and if he came up to me and told me there was only one way to win, and it was AWFUL... I would believe him, and then have to consider whether to do the awful thing. If Mordin was willing to actually do something that awful, it would really make me take a step back: whoa, this is a person whose scientific ethics I deeply respect, and he says this is the only way to proceed? Daaaaaamn. That said, I don't think Mordin would support making a goo reaper under any circumstances... better Dead than Smeg, as they say.

Now if we did know exactly how it would affect our chances, and the chioce was to make goo reapers out of 50% of the galactic population so the other 50% could survive... Bioware won't do anything like that, but THAT would be a conundrum. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is implied by your stance on the Collector base. That you are inconsistent in your arguments.

Choose one.

Wow. Is there anything else about me you assume you know? No?

As I've said before but no-one around here seems to get because they're too busy looking for something insignifcant to **** about is that THE COLLECTOR BASE WAS LONG GONE WHEN I RAN INTO THE REAPER ARTIFACT!

Plus, it wasn't about to fall into the hands of some terrorist organization.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 avril 2011 - 12:12 .

[MisterJB]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And by mastering it, we're going past the path they wanted us to develop. Protheans mastered the relay technology and this led to Sovereign's downfall and the stop of the cycle.

A fair point but keep in mind that there's nothing dangerous with the Relays, no so with the Collector Base. And should we really go that far? I dread to think of a Galaxy where humans have made portable indoctrinating devices.

And people who are indocrinated eventually become worthless and drooling idiots who can't do anything by themselves, having a reaper factory with the indocrination technology up would be counterproductive as the workers would eventually become too incompetent.

Therefor, they created their own species to manage the Base by adapting the Protheans.

Sorry, I don't think I'm seeing your point. It appears you're agreeing with me.

Big risk you're placing that there would be anything worth investigating left, excluding the data.

Just as you are by messing with the Base and giving it to Cerberus.

[Arijharn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Basically, one of the other reasons I'm worried about the Collector base is that I now know, through these forums, that there are multiple people here who would feed billions of living humans into the goo vats if they "thought it would help." And If those peope exist in the ME universe, they're probably Cerberus higher-ups, or people who have a lot of pull in the Alliance military. Basically I want to keep the base out of the hands of monsters.

While I wouldn't go into 'billions' I indeed would 'sacrifice the few to save the many.' Not necessarily in all things, but when it comes to existential threats (aka; Reapers) I would. I even accept the fact that I may even join those 'few' but... I'm talking about galactic civilisation here. There's more people in that sum then just Cmdr. Shephard, Liara or anyone within that group that your char may love or even like.

But throwing something into the 'too hard' basket before you actively try and find it out is such an anathema to me personally I honestly can't respect that decision. 

Saving the base is the hedging-your-bets decision (and always will be) because on the slim chance that something exists on that base that proves essential to stopping the Reapers, you can't... because you destroyed it. So frankly, I find that more 'monstrous' in the sense of the events you have put into motion and just how badly it will effect everyone (ie., terminally) to be a greater threat than those 'morally bankrupt' people you apparently despise.

Additionally, if saving the base saves everyone but makes you feel morally unclean, then you could always seek absolution out later if you are religious, but if your (in)actions damn everyone then obviously you wouldn't be able too, and frankly I think people would be more repelled by themselves if they had the hindsight to see: "I was in the position to make a difference, but didn't" then anything else.

Sozzy about that rant, but you did push a button and I wanted to try and explain to you why I think it's your actions that is the 'more monstrous.'

[aimlessgun]

@Arhijarn, heads up: CGG believes that destroying the base is the more effective way to fight the reapers, so you'd have to have that argument first before getting to your points.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Here's the thing - I don't think it would be Shepard's choice to make. It'd probably be left up to someone much crazier and more ruthless, even if the base was in the possession of the alliance. But yeah, a surprising number of people are willing to do it.

I think the goo needs to be sentient at the time of goo-ifying. That's why they don't just use Collectors or clones. It's complicated, but it's the solution that makes the most sense. I think they are saving records of our thought processes and memories, but transforming those from actual sentience into an advanced, soulless form of processing. I also think they use our different structural data for possible future slave-race genemods - like they need data from left handed people and right handed people, sociopaths and introverts, old and young, etc. I don't think it's evil for the sake of evil, I think it's evil for the sake of efficiency, which is much more insidious.

Now if we did know exactly how it would affect our chances, and the chioce was to make goo reapers out of 50% of the galactic population so the other 50% could survive... Bioware won't do anything like that, but THAT would be a conundrum. 

I'd probably trust Mordin pretty far as well.

I didn't think about the "saving records of thoughts and memories" angle, which is interesting. (hrm...would it be unethical to liquify clones? Yes? Damn!)

I actually hope the problem of Cerberus or someone else trying to make a goo reaper shows up in ME3, since it would be pretty dramatic/shocking/soulsearchprovoking, but only if there is some corresponding benefit for the basekeepers.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 09 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'm not assuming anything. I cam looking at the arguments you are presenting, which are inconsisting, and making a judgment about them. Either you are for or against studying Reaper tech. If you are against it then Kenson never should have studied Object Rho. That means she never would have uncovered the coming invasion and the Reapers would be in the galaxy already.

Again. Object Rho wasn't about to fall into the hands of Cerberus, known terrorists by the way, that could've done far more damage with the Collector base than some Reaper artifact.

The only thing Kenson didn't have was time.

There's a big difference.

[MisterJB]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Here's the thing - I don't think it would be Shepard's choice to make. It'd probably be left up to someone much crazier and more ruthless, even if the base was in the possession of the alliance. But yeah, a surprising number of people are willing to do it.

Yeah, it is definitely not monstrous to condemn your species to death because fighting to stay alive might mean doing something icky.

You have extremely warped priorities if you'd rather fight clean than fight victoriously.

I'm sure the rest of humanity will appreciate having been sacrificed on your alter of self-righteousness.

If a man is willing to sacrifice his brother to survive, then he deserves to die.
If Humanity is willing to liquify millions of our brothers and sisters to survive, then Humanity deserves to be extinct. Call me a monster if you will but I'll say I'm the last decent man on a race of monsters.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arijharn wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Basically, one of the other reasons I'm worried about the Collector base is that I now know, through these forums, that there are multiple people here who would feed billions of living humans into the goo vats if they "thought it would help." And If those peope exist in the ME universe, they're probably Cerberus higher-ups, or people who have a lot of pull in the Alliance military. Basically I want to keep the base out of the hands of monsters.

While I wouldn't go into 'billions' I indeed would 'sacrifice the few to save the many.' Not necessarily in all things, but when it comes to existential threats (aka; Reapers) I would. I even accept the fact that I may even join those 'few' but... I'm talking about galactic civilisation here. There's more people in that sum then just Cmdr. Shephard, Liara or anyone within that group that your char may love or even like.

But throwing something into the 'too hard' basket before you actively try and find it out is such an anathema to me personally I honestly can't respect that decision. 

Saving the base is the hedging-your-bets decision (and always will be) because on the slim chance that something exists on that base that proves essential to stopping the Reapers, you can't... because you destroyed it. So frankly, I find that more 'monstrous' in the sense of the events you have put into motion and just how badly it will effect everyone (ie., terminally) to be a greater threat than those 'morally bankrupt' people you apparently despise.

Additionally, if saving the base saves everyone but makes you feel morally unclean, then you could always seek absolution out later if you are religious, but if your (in)actions damn everyone then obviously you wouldn't be able too, and frankly I think people would be more repelled by themselves if they had the hindsight to see: "I was in the position to make a difference, but didn't" then anything else.

Sozzy about that rant, but you did push a button and I wanted to try and explain to you why I think it's your actions that is the 'more monstrous.'

I've explained before (and earlier in this thread) the OTHER reasons why I don't think keeping the base is smart.

Chief among them is this: if I were the Reapers, an eternal race of super-intelligent monsters, I would make damn sure that any technology that is ANYWHERE where people can get it is heavily trapped, and vastly inferior to what i have in my own system. I think the reason we benefitted so much from Sovereign tech was that that dude was a full-on grown-up Reaper who did not expect to die.

If I'm giving my moronic slave race some tech to use, I'm going to make damn sure it is tech I have a countermeasure for. Whatever that crazy beam is? I have a shield that makes that beam bounce off like butter. I'm sending these ships out all the time, and they could get taken out pretty easily. This base? It's in the Galaxy, through a Mass Relay. It's not inconceivable that sentients could stumble upon it.

So I'll just equip my slaves with weaker tech, all of which I have countermeasures for. It will be strong enough to use against the incredibly primitive races who I face, but too weak to harm me if it falls. Plus, I'll constantly monitor whether or not they capture the base, so I can know what they have access to.  The primitive organics might get lucky against the slaves at some point, I mean we've lost at least one actual Reaper in the past.

So yes, while it's possible that destroying it loses us a valuable resource, it's equally possible that preserving it makes us play directly into their hands. Renegades always act as if "better to have it" is the default assumption, that if we destroy it, it's more likely that we're destroying a benefit than defusing a trap. I see no evidence of that.

Now, it's possible that the Reapers didn't think of this. If you are suggesting that I am much smarter and better at planning than an immoral race of genius super machines, then I accept your compliment.

[MisterJB]

Saphra Deden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Call me a monster if you will but I'll say I'm the last decent man on a race of monsters.

You are the monster among decent men, lording yourself above others and passing judgement on their lives. You are the worst kind of tyrant.

Passing judgement? Me? I am but stating my opinion, it is my firm belief that if humanity does what you suggest, then we deserve to be taken by the Reapers for we have become worse than them.
I am not the one sacrificing my own kin. How would you decide who gets liquified and who doesn't, eh?
Besides, I am but a man. I doubt very much that my help would decisive in the War with the Reapers.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

I'm a Paragade/metagamersomehow, Sole Survivor. I kept the base in my "ultimate save" (yes, although telling TIM to shove it and seeing Miri's resignation is sooooo cool) trying to make it a good use against the reapers. Not to say that I wasn't expecting something bad to happen. Still, should be worth trying to make some good of all those innocent deaths trying to prevent another billion deaths in the hands of reapers raising our chances against them. If that means hand it to Cerberus, so be it.

But...So the Illusive Man is in my Shepard's way now?  Too bad for him he got me another excuse to break him and get Cerberus for Shep himself or the Alliance. Indocrinated or not he better be ready for what's coming to him.

Although I'm very intrigued WHY he wants to kill Shep, makes completely no sense for now.

[MisterJB]

Saphra Deden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I am not the one sacrificing my own kin.

You are doing exactly that and you are doing it with a sense of smug self-righteousness.

My inactivity would still be a lot less criminal than liquifying millions of humans. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Chief among them is this: if I were the Reapers, an eternal race of super-intelligent monsters, I would make damn sure that any technology that is ANYWHERE where people can get it is heavily trapped, and vastly inferior to what i have in my own system. I think the reason we benefitted so much from Sovereign tech was that that dude was a full-on grown-up Reaper who did not expect to die.

So they expected the Collector base to be captured then? That's why it had a relay in the way that nobody could get through for the last 500 years.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Renegades always act as if "better to have it" is the default assumption, that if we destroy it, it's more likely that we're destroying a benefit than defusing a trap. I see no evidence of that.

No, our stance is that you don't know unless you study the ****ing thing to find out.

So you're going to study it without "having" it? How does that work?

[Notho]

Saphra Deden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I am not the one sacrificing my own kin.

You are doing exactly that and you are doing it with a sense of smug self-righteousness.

You're doing the same thing by sending them into the reaper-maker, so unless you're willing to volunteer to be first in line, I think you're being a bit hypocritical.

[aimlessgun]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Now if we did know exactly how it
would affect our chances, and the chioce was to make goo reapers out of
50% of the galactic population so the other 50% could survive... Bioware
won't do anything like that, but THAT would be a conundrum. 

MisterJB wrote...
If a man is willing to sacrifice his brother to survive, then he deserves to die.
If Humanity is willing to liquify millions of our brothers and sisters to survive, then Humanity deserves to be extinct. Call me a monster if you will but I'll say I'm the last decent man on a race of monsters.

I actually want to come back to this point. Is it really a conumdrum? It's horrible, but if there was no other way what argument is there other than the one MisterJB uses?

And I actually reject JB's argument, because if Shepard is making the decision, I don't think Humanity is tainted. I think Shepard is tainted, and she alone is responsible, and can carry the sin alone. Future generations might go on into a morally brigher future and call her a monster, and they'll be alive to do so because of her.

[Arijharn]

aimlessgun wrote...
@Arhijarn, heads up: CGG believes that destroying the base is the more effective way to fight the reapers, so you'd have to have that argument first before getting to your points.

Thats... interesting. I'd like to read about their rationale as to why.

My rationale is predicated on the following:
1) Our species' biggest guns are those co-axially aligned within Dreadnoughts
2) Dreadnought firepower is currently insufficient as to breech Reaper shield technology (src: EDI if you take the 'Renegade' conversation option when the derelict Reaper isolates your group from that of the Normandy vessel)
3) This is backed up by the fleet operations against Sovereign during the climax of ME1, and was subsequently confirmed by Hackett (at least, in my playthrough) during Arrival's post mission debrief when he mentions that it took the '[entire?] fifth fleet -- and the Destiny Ascension -- to bring it down' although that in itself is debatable because we know that Sovereign was only destroyed after zombie-saren was exterminated. Was that the actions because of the 5th Fleet? Shephard? or was it a combination thereof?