864 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackEssence]

Ok....after reading through these "argumentative points", I was going to share my thoughts, but I decided against it as I see that many people here just don't want to accept that others feel differently and will always feel differently because they actually have a RIGHT to. So, I think I need to be the quick voice of reason here and then be on my way as this is a very interesting conversation, but some people posting are resorting to name calling, intelligence belittling, and unnecessary sarcasm attempts :

ALL of you have brought up great point of views, perceptions if you will, about the indoctrinations of the Reapers and the role of the collectors, as well as the position that TIM stands being a crazy logical man or a crazy genocidal manic if it calls for it type of man. But, what I am seeing here that I find disturbing here is that everyone is trying to push their points across in the means of demeaning others who don't agree with them.

I'm seeing insults, calm insults, but insults none the less, of people trying to dominate over others arguments because they feel strongly about their arguments. It's ok to be passionate in what you feel in the opinions and perceptions that you have developed. But, keep in mind, this IS a video game in it's true form. We are people from all over the world sharing our thoughts. Let's try o do that in a adult manner. Just because you don't agree or understand someone's arguments doesn't give you the right to insult that person's intelligence.

In the end, we all are going to feel the way we do based on our gaming experience with this game. Just don't let it drive you to the point of having a good but FAIR debate turn into just internet hating towards each other. I mean, you all are bringing in some great point of views, but keep in mind that just because some of us kept the base and some of us destroyed it, it is due to our personal views. Respect that. Whether you agree or not or like or dislike it.

I thinks it terrible to tell someone that a personal decision they made was due to idiocy. To me, that makes the person who said less intelligent than the person they were speaking of. I also want to point out that if you engage in disagreement with someone, LEAVE IT ALONE! At a certain point, you both will end up spending time on the internet trying to make each other change your point of views to feel some sort of dominance or "win". We have difference of opinion for a reason. Respect it and leave it alone.


Now, back to the topic at hand.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arijharn wrote...
snip

I agree that I may be giving them too much credit. I am super paranoid. But it's my reasoning for why we don't know whether even STUDYING the base will be beneficial or not.

A lot of this can be summed up thusly: why aren't we spending more time studying Ilos? That holo seemed to think he could tell we weren't indoctrinated! That's the one time we know people developed tech the Reapers did not want them to have! Our resources should be focused there, rather than the CB, and on independent stuff they won't know to expect.

I'd say there's about a 40% chance I'm wrong, and studying the Collector base is as valid a use of resources as anything else. But that 60% confidence I have in my own thing is enough to make me annoyed when people claim I'm being fundamentally illogical for blowing the CB. I'm about 60% certain that it's logically better to do it, and I'm 80% certain that it's morally better to do it. Either way, I'm still leaning strong in that one direction.

[Soahfreako]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

And I will again laugh my ass off when it happens. Again! 

[Golden Owl]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I'm a Paragade/metagamersomehow, Sole Survivor. I kept the base in my "ultimate save" (yes, although telling TIM to shove it and seeing Miri's resignation is sooooo cool) trying to make it a good use against the reapers. Not to say that I wasn't expecting something bad to happen. Still, should be worth trying to make some good of all those innocent deaths trying to prevent another billion deaths in the hands of reapers raising our chances against them. If that means hand it to Cerberus, so be it.

But...So the Illusive Man is in my Shepard's way now?  Too bad for him he got me another excuse to break him and get Cerberus for Shep himself or the Alliance. Indocrinated or not he better be ready for what's coming to him.

Although I'm very intrigued WHY he wants to kill Shep, makes completely no sense for now.

Your saying TIM wants to kill Shep even if he does save the base?

[aimlessgun]

I'd rather have lasers than a flintlock. At least I'd be farther along to developing phasers.

Arijharn wrote...
I think that despite his/her skill, Shephard
has for the most part won his victories primarily on sheer dumb luck,
therefore the idea that somehow the Reapers have planned for this to be
incredibly... improbable? impossible?

Hah sort of like this idea. The cycle has a .0001% chance of failing every go around, and after enough cycles it is bound to happen. Our game takes place during the lucky cycle, and of course the storytellers would tell us the story of the one successful cycle instead of the countless failures.

BlackEssence wrote...
Now, back to the topic at hand.

I agree. In my defense, I only insulted Soahfreako because he refused to read the thread [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 09 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[88mphSlayer]

Stinkface27 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Bioware, plot-hammering people into being holier-than-thou paragons?

Man, I hope not. If that's the route they're taking, I'll be the first to never buy another BW game ever again.

yeah that would be dumb since i usually like being renegade/evil/whatever in bioware's games

How would we have known that? Certainly your avatar wouldn't have given it away.

nah bro, Mr. Psycopath likes frolicking in fields and picking daisies (but only after he roasts the nearby village to the ground  )

[Quole]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

cry more please?

[Quole]

Why wouldnt renegades get shafted? All they do is kill people at random and make as many enemies as possible.Really. Im mostly renegade and really could care less.

Modifié par Quole, 09 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[Soahfreako]

Quole wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

cry more please?

I don't like your sig sir.

[Quole]

Soahfreako wrote...

Quole wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

cry more please?

I don't like your sig sir.

Hah. Dont be mad at me. Im just telling it like it is.

[Almostfaceman]

Golden Owl wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

I'm a Paragade/metagamersomehow, Sole Survivor. I kept the base in my "ultimate save" (yes, although telling TIM to shove it and seeing Miri's resignation is sooooo cool) trying to make it a good use against the reapers. Not to say that I wasn't expecting something bad to happen. Still, should be worth trying to make some good of all those innocent deaths trying to prevent another billion deaths in the hands of reapers raising our chances against them. If that means hand it to Cerberus, so be it.

But...So the Illusive Man is in my Shepard's way now?  Too bad for him he got me another excuse to break him and get Cerberus for Shep himself or the Alliance. Indocrinated or not he better be ready for what's coming to him.

Although I'm very intrigued WHY he wants to kill Shep, makes completely no sense for now.

Your saying TIM wants to kill Shep even if he does save the base?

This is a bit OT, but I'll post one of the Renegade end-game dialogue's as food for thought:

Tim: Shepard, it's a new day and we have you to thank for our deliverance.

Shepard: Don't try to flatter me - We did the right thing, you don't need to try and make me feel good about it.

Tim: Always willing to do whatever it takes, well, it's paid off.  Adapting the technology of the Collector base could be the biggest advancement for human kind since the discovery of the relays.  It will secure our dominance in the galaxy against the Reapers and beyond.

Shepard: Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?

Tim: They're one and the same my mission has always been to promote and secure humanity's continued strength.  Don't let idealism blind you.  Using the base to its fullest potential is the best way to fulfill ours.

Shepard: That base won't win the war - Just remember, the Reapers are still out there, Harbinger is coming and you can bet he won't be alone.  You get selfish you start dreaming about power and we'll all pay the price.

Tim: Don't presume to judge me or my methods.  Cerberus will be ready to face the Reapers.

Shepard: You better be - You brought me back to lead this war and that's what I'm going to do, if you can keep up, great.  If not, I'll stop the Reapers without you.

Now, even Renegade Shep tells TiM straight to his face that Shep is leading - not TiM.  I think this is not acceptable to TiM.  Thus, he'll want to remove Shepard.

[aimlessgun]

MisterJB wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...
Go ahead and say those who stood by are monsters too. Fine. But to say that their children are monsters and deserve to die, that every baby is a monster and deserves to die, that all the unborn babies are monsters and deserve to die...you don't see anything wrong with that?

Like Saphra said, judge individuals, not a species.

Can I then sacrifice all the adults to the blenders and save the children who are blamemess? No, I can not.
Can I destroy the generation that allowed that a monstrosity to ocurr and save the next one? No, I can not.

You can destroy half the generation that allowed a monstrosity to occur, and save the next one. This isn't good enough for you?

It's all about choices. In this situation, Humanity made the choice of becoming monsters: I can make the choice of helping them or not. I choose not to.
And that makes migth make me a monster myself, I do not deny it. However, I simply could not find it in me to help people who were willing to do such an horrible thing. I could not, I would rather live with my conscience until the Reapers came for me.

Humanity is not making the choice. An incredibly small subset of humanity (on the scale of all humans who have and will be alive) is making that choice, faced with extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

I will not punish the son for the sins of the father. I am deadly sincere about this, it's a big part of my personal morality.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 09 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[Soahfreako]

Quole wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

Quole wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

cry more please?

I don't like your sig sir.

Hah. Dont be mad at me. Im just telling it like it is.

Whatevs. Dat Zerg rush is the only real OP thing. ._.

[MisterJB]

Saphra Deden wrote...
YES!
It is absolutely a matter of numbers. I'd sacrifice a portion of humanity and save the rest of it than watch the entirety of it die. I'd rather "taint my own soul" than standby and watch all of our history and culture turn to dust.

So, when does it stop being acceptable? When we have already killed more humans than we will save?
And don't talk about future generations, if to stop the Reapers we have to kill the majority of the human population, you would still do it?
And it's not about tainting my soul, it's about tainting the soul of our species.

You are also willing to let the entire species die if it satisfies your ego and conscience to do so. That is monstrous. At the end of the day you are willing to kill a lot more people than I am.

That does depend on how many people we have to sacrifice.
If humanity does what you suggest, humanity deserves to die. And if I do not lift a finger to help my race while it burns around me, I deserve to die.
However, remember that Humanity started it.

[MassEffect762]

More variables equals more money, you think EA has that kind of patience/commitment? lol.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 09 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

How? We've got to obligely work together with Cerberus and the best the Council has ever gave was "Ah yes, reapers"...but wait! They reinstated us as Spectres, which actually got us...nothing!

[Saaziel]

I'm of the opinion that dying with principles is better than living without them.

This doesn't resolved the Collector base dilemma; The decision to either destroy or keep the base could be a matter of principle. However we're all dying (Isn't that a song by Klute Btw ?), everything dies; There's no purpose in trying to avoid this (not trying to be all emo here). So might as well "live" for something ( Living & dying here ties in to a much broader Heraclitean world view.)

This is why i never liked the idea of connecting P/R to game altering decisions. Those decisions should still be made, its an interesting mechanic. However the entire point of an RPG , is working through internal conflicts the protagonist might have. Imposing a predetermined value to those decisions takes the fun out of RPG in my opinion.

Modifié par Saaziel, 09 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Indeed. I believe it is inherently better, but I know that I have no hard evidence, because none of us have any hard evidence. So I just put forth my reasoning, and say why I think it is better, without claiming that I have proof.

Wait, now you are changing your position? A minute ago you said it was merely equally valid. So is it equal or is it better?

If it is better, why?

You haven't presented any convincing arguments why. Instead your argument hinges on assumptions which are not backed up at all by the narrative.

Conversely, my argument is based on asking questions and trying to answer them. You already assume you know the answers, which is faulty.

I do not assume I know the answers. In fact, I've stated over and over that I do not, and all of this is based on educated guesses. Yet the instant I assert that, you say it renders my conclusion invalid.

I am saying that many important facts are missing. Without these facts there is absolutely no way for anyone to be certain which choice is better. Right now, there is no way for anyone to "prove" his choice is better, unless they have access to data that the rest of us do not have access to.

I have based my opinion on all the facts we have available, and made an educated guess. We have very little evidence, there are hundreds of possible scenarios: indoctrinator or no? Trap or no? Bad use of resources or no? We don't know the answer to a single one of these questions.

If someone came along and said "Bioware just published a book which reveals without a doubt: The Collector base does not cause indoctrination." then that would change how I weighed my opinions. Similarly, if someone came around and said "Bioware just published a book which reveals without a doubt: the items on the CB are inferior technology, which will not help us in the fight against the Reapers." Everyone would have to factor that into their theories. Neither of these things have happened, thus we cannot take any of these things for granted.

We don't have ANY of this information. So I have to ask myself these questions:

Does the Base Cause Indoctrination?
If yes, can we study indoctrination without the people studying indoctrination somehow making a mistake, and getting indoctrinated?
Did the Reapers likely leave useful tech around for us to use?
Do the Reapers have countermeasures for tech they now know we have access to?
Is there no better project we can devote our money and resources to?
Can we glean enough knowledge about it in the next few months for it to be useful?
How likely is it someone will misuse the tech?

Now, we don't have an answer to a single one of these questions. Neither of us do. I make my conclusions based on guesses as to the answer to these questions. So does everybody... the only wrinkle is that they might not have thought to consider a particular question. So I am trying to list all the possible questions I am keeping in mind when making my decision, so that someone who may not have thought of that particular question can add it to their own decision-making process.

Based on my own consideration of these questions, I have developed the opinion that there is a 60% chance that it is logically better to blow up the base than keep it. I think there is a 20% chance that keeping it will only help us, and not harm us in any way. I think there is a 20% chance that it will help us slightly, but damage our morality and reputation in the galaxy forever.

I believe this strongly, but I welcome its refutation by people who have considered all the questions I listed, and come up with reasons to guess differently than I do... as long as they acknowledge that their conclusions are also based on educated guesses, and that they have no proof either way, and no way of being certain that their chioce is superior.

I acknowledge all those things. I'm doing it again, right here, if you missed it.

[88mphSlayer]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

How? We've got to obligely work together with Cerberus and the best the Council has ever gave was "Ah yes, reapers"...but wait! They reinstated us as Spectres, which actually got us...nothing!

well to be fair if you killed the council you didn't even get to talk to anybody on the new council, you just talk to Anderson and Udina like you would anyways and that's it

but they did basically remove all consequences from that decision at the end of ME1, kill the council or save the council has less impact on ME2 than whether you finished talking to Conrad Verner

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 09 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[Quole]

Soahfreako wrote...

Quole wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

Quole wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Long story short, Bioware has always gimped Renegades and favored the Paragons. ME2 proved this and it will be shown again in ME3.

cry more please?

I don't like your sig sir.

Hah. Dont be mad at me. Im just telling it like it is.

Whatevs. Dat Zerg rush is the only real OP thing. ._.

Is my new sig bettter?

[Arijharn]

Soahfreako wrote...

Honestly, I cannot believe this is being debated. If Bioware has a DLC that SPECIFICALLY has a person who tries to study a piece of Reaper tech saying "Lets stop them gaiz! :D" only to have them go "Derp, all hail the Reapers." a few weeks later, you'd think that'd be a big enough clue. Apparently not.

So... you'll just accept Indoctrination then? Don't seek to somehow thwart it because it's too complicated?

This means you'll never be able to accept refugee's fleeing from other systems you know. You'll just have to summarily execute them because they could be indoctrinated (and how would you find out otherwise? You didn't study it!), you couldn't risk them tagging along with your fleet because they could alert the Reapers to your presence (what if you had to momentarily dissipate heat and electrical charge buildup by going through a gas giant, or land on a moon to earth? Remember, at that time you are effectively blind and mute because sensors and communications array's have to be withdrawn so they wont get shorted). You couldn't leave them on other inhabitated planets though either because of similar problems, "Dear Reapers, here on Alcherra is an 'all-you-can-eat-buffet'!" and if you think it's possible to defend every planet then well... you're sadly deluded.

The point being is that if you study Indoctrination this doesn't have to be the case.
"Whoa I'm sorry Mrs. Snelby, our scanners indicate you're Indoctrinated!"
"-wha? I nev-"
"it's okay Mrs, We've planned for this eventuality and we have created some counter-measures. They may be a little scary to begin with, but the process is rather short."
"No, I refuse! YOu have no proof"
"Look Mrs. Snelby, I am sorry about this, but this is required. People far smarter than I have worked out how to undo the process. The sad alternative is that we live you alone and unarmed on an uninhabitated planet, with perhaps a few days of food (and that honestly depends on our stocks).
"If you accept though you can stay on board, depending on needs you may be drafted into service, but chances are more likely that we'll send you to refugee camps set up in convenient locations."
"Where are those?!"
"I'm sorry Mrs, but until we have successfully removed Indoctrination from you, I can not tell you."
"I -- okay."

Compare this to your scenario:
"Whoa I'm sorry Mrs. Snelby, our scanners indicate you're Indoctrinated!"
"-wha? I nev-"
"it's okay Mrs, We've planned for this eventuality and we have created some counter-measures. They may be a little scary to begin with, but the process is rather short.
"Please follow me to the Medlabs."
"I -- no, you can't do this, you have no proof!"
"I'm sorry Mrs. Snelby, but I can. We are under martial law due to the current state of emergency, which means civil liberties are currently suspended."
"I... very well."
++ CAUSE OF DEATH, LETHAL INJECTION: POTASSIUM CHLORIDE; SODIUM THIOPENTAL MUSCLE RELAXANT ++

And you know what, that wouldn't even be accurate, because you couldn't 'detect' that they were indoctrinated as I said earlier, you'd have to tell white lies to justify the fact that you don't want to compromise your military actions (because keeping them on board would just be stupid) you'd just have to assume everything.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Man, if only we had a green lady who had survied indoctrination to study... oops, the Renegades killed her. Crap. (Yes I know not all renegades kil her. This is a joke).

If only we focused our resources on Ilos, to figure out how that holo knew that we weren't indoctrinated... but nope, those are better spent on the Collector base!

Honeslty, if there were an option to keep the base, but refrain from studying it until either Shiala or Ilos gave us a guaranteed cure for indoctrination, I'd totally take that option. But there isn't one.

[MisterJB]

aimlessgun wrote...
Humanity is not making the choice. An incredibly small subset of humanity (on the scale of all humans who have and will be alive) is making that choice, faced with extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

I will not punish the son for the sins of the father. I am deadly sincere about this, it's a big part of my personal morality.

Humanity is composed by the humans who are alive rigth now, we can't say that Humanity does not deserve to be punished just because in some generations, a new Mozart migth come along.
And is this really the legacy you would want to leave for future generations? If need be, kill your neighbour to save yourself.

The proper way would be to save the child and punish the father. However, Shepard can not bring Humanity into Martial court, can he?

[Arijharn]

Saaziel wrote...

I'm of the opinion that dying with principles is better than living without them.

That would be noble if it was just you who was going to bite the bullet. If you choose to murder them all by your inaction because you don't want to get your 'hands dirty' wouldn't that make you an accessory or accomplice? Wouldn't you be murdering them 'by proxy'?

And what about all those people and species that don't share your morals? I get that you for example, don't accept my decisions, but at least you'll live free from my choice to do what it is you want (even yes, arresting me at a later date). You damn everyone by yours to death (or worse).

And then people like you (not necessarily you of course) have the notion of calling 'us' the morally bankrupt? Such irony!