864 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Why is Reaper technology equivalent to self-propegating destruction as ebola? Reaper technology itself is still a tool, like any other technology. Whether it's used by a centralized AI or remote-control-drones or by organics, it only acts when it is, well, used.

It's hardly a self-spreading plague, nor is it beyond our ability to stop, study, or analyze (which germ-warfare circa 1500 certainly was for the most part).


Reaper technology may be hundreds of years beyond our (unassisted) ability to produce or invent, but it isn't beyond our ability to study: we've already done so more than once.

[Ieldra]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
So is Reaper/Collector tech evil? No. Might it contain some grey-goo style traps, things that are impossible to study safely without understanding the basic principles behind them first? Oh yes. Probably! Heck, they might have literal grey goo in there. I've seen 'em use what looked like that kind of nanotech to goo some people. So they might have tech that we do not understand how to safely study, yes. I think that's very likely, in fact.

That does not add weight to the equation in favor of destroying the base. For if that is the case, any attempt to destroy it may have exactly the repercussions you'd want to avoid. Here's an example I have actually used in an RPG:

A spaceship was infected by a very hard-to-fight nanovirus. One option to deal with it was to send the ship into the sun, only that the nanovirus was specifically heat-resistant and created to be spread through the solar wind. As it approached the sun, its next life cycle would have been activated and it would have spread over the whole star system.

So while your scenario is plausible, it does not make one where destruction should be favored over study. If we do not know enough to study something safely, it is very likely we do not know about it to destroy it safely as well.

This isn't what I was talking about. Ok, I'll give you a better example.

You have a flask of weaponized Ebola. You can give it to Girolamo Fracastoro, in the 1500s telling him "this is the eventual epitome of the theory you are trying to develop about germs causing illness. It is very advanced technology. It is also very dangerous. Do you want to study it or destroy it?

Studying it is a bad idea. Even though he is about to be one of the first to premise that "germs" cause disease, he doesn't know what safety precautions to take around an airborn supervirus. If you give him that vial and he opens it, likely most of the population of the earth will be destroyed.

My argument still stands:
He will also not know if throwing it into the fire will destroy it. Unless you tell him. But nobody is telling us anything about Reaper technology. We don't know what happens if we open the box, we don't know what happens if we attempt do destroy it. Only we are in a situation where we will probably all die anyway. And this might just be what we need to succeed, even it causes collateral damage of a million dead.

The safest thing in this case would be do leave the stuff alone. But we don't have that option, and humans aren't wired that way. Also, what Saphra Deden says.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

There's also the minor matter that Girolamo Fracastoro is going to be presented the opportunity simaltaneously with the knowledge that, in a hundred years, people who throw around ebola-shells like crazy are going to be coming.

Whether or not he studies ebola now, it will come later all the same. Destroying it now does nothing to prepare for Then, when there will also be an invading army to contend with.

[Xaijin]

Arijharn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Keeping the Base is a GOOD idea, always has been and always will.

Form the story angle at the moment of the decision it is the only sount decision to keep the Base.

Everything else is meta gaming.

Besides, Cerberus hunting you still doesn't mean they become the bad guys. Maybe you're the bad guy. Shepard is Saren v2.0, remember?

BioWare has rather handily proven the only metagamer here is you, as Cerberus is evil, and always has been, and the fact you're arguing with the provider of the plot on what said plot meansm as if it's somehow up to interpreation is pretty much the sole purview of a metagamer.

You realise that BioWare has came out and said that they intend the Illusive Man (and thus; Cerberus -- because they've functionally become the same entity really) to be morally ambiguous. That's hardly 'evil' to the degree you're espousing.

Whether BioWare has successfully portrayed that is the issue that is under contention. I don't know about you, but arbritrarilly saying that something is either 'good' or 'evil' is damn simplistic, and not something I'd expect to see outside a children's cartoon (or a Star Wars film...), let me work it out for myself damnit!

If you prefer to think that Cerberus is evil and will only ever be evil, then more power to you, but it's your opinion and is as 'flawed' as Zulu's when it comes down to it.

Nope. BioWare provides the plot, and the plot has been shown in other venues, as well as the main game. There's nothing grey or "ambiguous" (ha) about Cerberus methods, goals or personnel for the most part, and of those personnel displayed, those with positive personality traits have been shown unilaterally to be new hires, or distinctly uncomfortable with the organization they serve, or souls with a grudge against a previous race or enemy Cerberus has dealt with in the past. If you wish ignore what is obvious and blatantly  portrayed in rather straight storytelling style, that isn't really germane to the discussion. That Cerberus "serves" humanity is equally dubious, and the Shadow Broker and Overlord provides direct OBJECTIVE information to Shepard about that, thus eliminating any idiotic argument about metagaming, or even ambiguity for that matter save for the reaper threat magnitude.

Modifié par Xaijin, 12 avril 2011 - 10:51 .

[Arijharn]

Xaijin wrote...
Nope. BioWare provides the plot, and the plot has been shown in other venues, as well as the main game. There's nothing grey or "ambiguous" (ha) about Cerberus methods, goals or personnel for the most part, and of those personnel displayed, those with positive personality traits have been shown unilaterally to be new hires, or distinctly uncomfortable with the organization they serve, or souls with a grudge against a previous race or enemy Cerberus has dealt with in the past. If you wish ignore what is obvious and blatantly  portrayed in rather straight storytelling style, that isn't really germane to the discussion. That Cerberus "serves" humanity is equally dubious, and the Shadow Broker and Overlord provides direct OBJECTIVE information to Shepard about that, thus eliminating any idiotic argument about metagaming, or even ambiguity for that matter save for the reaper threat magnitude.

Miranda doesn't have an issue with Cerberus until straight at the end, which has probably more to do with the plot mechanics than anything else (and is somewhat strange considering the fact that Cerberus is the only thing protecting her sister). But hey, Shephard has his/her own Indoctrination field.

Gabby, Ken, Joker and presumably Dr. Chakwas are the only people we know for sure are 'new' hires , no one else that we know of are necessarily new (Mess Sergeant Gardner for example; Kelly for another).

How is Shadow Broker in any way 'objective'? Shadow Broker has been trying to break down Cerberus for quite a long period of time. Additionally, maybe that's just me, but a Black Ops organisation that assassinates people to me behaves rather what I'd expect to from a black ops organisation, so saying that they're bad for this is like saying you're bad for breathing. The only issue that I think could be considered bad was the Teltin facility, and that's because I don't see the point of studying on children when they could have done the same thing (as far as I can see) with actual alliance soldiers and by studying biotic responses from high stress situations (such as; live fire exercises).

[FlintlockJazz]

Arijharn wrote...

Gabby, Ken, Joker and presumably Dr. Chakwas are the only people we know for sure are 'new' hires , no one else that we know of are necessarily new (Mess Sergeant Gardner for example; Kelly for another).

Been saying this for a while now, but making it official:  I'm calling it that Mess Sergeant Gardner is gonna be revealed as some sort of badass sleeper agent planted by Cerberus to take out Shepard the moment he becomes a threat.  Like Steven Seagal playing the cook in Under Siege...

[atheelogos]

Akizora wrote...

It doesn't have to be, you could end up killing TIM and then owning the base yourself

Why would shep want the base himself? I think you mean killing TIM and handing the base over to the Alliance.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You have a flask of weaponized Ebola. You can give it to Girolamo Fracastoro, in the 1500s telling him "this is the eventual epitome of the theory you are trying to develop about germs causing illness. It is very advanced technology. It is also very dangerous. Do you want to study it or destroy it?

Studying it is a bad idea.

You do have a point here, but I question your conclusion.The intial costs of studying the disease may be high, but in the long run it could help him or his successors to develop an earlier understanding of viruses, advancing medicine faster than it would have been otherwise. A similar scenario would be turning over a modern nuclear reactor to a team of physcists and engineers circa 1900. They would poor or vague understanding of the danger and may expose themselves and others to harmful radiation. However in stumbling into these dangers they would learn about them and advance. We might have nuclear power decades earlier than was originally possible.

Studying advanced technology is dangerous, but the reward is great. The benefits as well work towards mitigating the dangers we face otherwise. This is especially true of the circumstances we find ourselves in concerning Mass Effect. We are up against an enemy who has technology far in advance of our own and they will be using it to try and kill us. Our best bet to survive the onslaught is to understand this technology. With understanding we can find ways to exploit it and use it to our advantage.

I honestly don't see any reason to believe it's more like giving scientists in the 1900s a nuclear reactor than giving Girolamo Fracastoro weaponized Ebola. That would imply that we are less than 100 years away from achieving all the collector technology independently, and that is not a great gap at all. I'd say we're more likely to be 500 years to 1000 years out from it, if not more, so the gap is more likely to be similar to the one I'm describing. I understand you don't imagine that they'd have any tech we couldn't understand on at least some level, even if it kills some scientists. I disagree, that may be the fundamental, unchangeable difference in our assumptions.

Let me explain what I'm worried about one last time, just for fun. The grey goo scenario and the Girolamo Fracastoro example both have one thing in common: neither society has the technology available to gain any real useful knowledge from the thing before it harms them. I think this is likely true of some forms of Collector tech

The problem with coming up with a "better sounding" example is that, well, nearly everything that will sound plausible scientifically, rather than sounding like crazy mojo, is something we might be able to study. Viruses, grey goo, radiation, etc. The idea I'm trying to convey is that there may be some scientific principle at work that we are so far from understanding that we would not even think of looking for it, would not know where to look for it if we knew it was there.

Let me try to come up with an example. The Reapers say they are experts in purpose-building technology that will warp the future of a race. Say there's a thing we don't know about, let's call this thing a NIVI. It's sort of like a virus, sort of like a nanomachine, sort of like an indoctrination device. It is a natural waste product of certain types of collector tech - if we replicate them, our new versions will release NIVI too. This exhaust, undetectable to us, causes the race that encounters it to slowly become self-destructive, sort of like a mouse with Toxoplasma gondii, causing that race to undertake actions that harm its own interests. Perhaps it doesn't even do that much, perhaps it just makes people exposed to it stupider, and less productive, or more violent against other, non-reaper races, or more likely to make bad decisions.

I'm not saying this is exactly what the problem is, or how it works. I'm saying this is as close as I can get to hypothesizing what the problem will be, because it may be beyond my ken, fundamentally, or it would not be so much of a problem.

I want to make it clear that this isn't reasoning I'd apply to most advanced technology I discovered - only stuff created by beings who we know are skilled in the manipulation of younger races through technology, or those beings' twisted, hyper-indoctrinated slaves. Tech that isn't created by that particular brand of monsters is more likely to be safe, though we should always use some caution.

This isn't magic, anymore than Toxoplasma gondii is magic, though it might seem like magic to someone hundreds of years ago. It would simply be science beyond our current fathom - science that directly echos something we have already seen the Reapers are capable of, something they have bragged about to us, the ability to shape other races through technology, to cause a race to develop in the directions they desire.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 avril 2011 - 12:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CCG, the biggest difference is the difference in tech-curve difference. The farther up you are, the farther ahead you can reverse engineer: the knowledge base and technology to do so (to analyze composition, measure functionality, etc.) have grown exponentially, even faster than actual developments themselves. This is why the recipe for Greek Fire was nigh-uncrackable for hundreds of years, yet modern espionage can breakdown and analyze the re-engineer material unknown substances in a matter of months.

In the case of Reaper technology, we'ver already demonstrated we can study, understand, and re-use their technology... and, in the CDN, we're also fast-approaching the points of being able to analyze the very technology that was designed not to be possible to study. In ME2 alone, we're given four significant, war-shaping demonstrations of studying and ultimately benefiting from Reaper technology: EDI, the Thannix, the Reaper IFF,and even the Collector weaponry (that we can pick up or get via DLC).


Reaper technology, and Collector Technology, are already given metrics we can judge by. Collector technology has always been 'leading edge': ten years down the road we were developing anyways, so that the faction who receives the benefit gets a significant but temporary advantage. Decade-advanced technologies have been routinely studied and benefited from in our history for well over a century.

The Reaper tech analog to us is the Prothean discovery on Mars to pre-Mass Effect man. Which, as Anderson puts, was a two hundred year jump... which started paying significant tech gains in a matter of months (like how we got Thannix, EDI, and revese-engineered the IFF), and certainly wasn't beyond our ability to comprehend..

[AlexXIV]

MisterJB wrote...

Keeping the base was always a BAD idea, IMO.

This.

12 months ago=keeping base, bad idea
6 months ago=keeping base, bad idea
now=keeping base, bad idea.
in 6 months=keeping base, bad idea

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 avril 2011 - 01:08 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CCG, the biggest difference is the difference in tech-curve difference. The farther up you are, the farther ahead you can reverse engineer: the knowledge base and technology to do so (to analyze composition, measure functionality, etc.) have grown exponentially, even faster than actual developments themselves. This is why the recipe for Greek Fire was nigh-uncrackable for hundreds of years, yet modern espionage can breakdown and analyze the re-engineer material unknown substances in a matter of months.

In the case of Reaper technology, we'ver already demonstrated we can study, understand, and re-use their technology... and, in the CDN, we're also fast-approaching the points of being able to analyze the very technology that was designed not to be possible to study. In ME2 alone, we're given four significant, war-shaping demonstrations of studying and ultimately benefiting from Reaper technology: EDI, the Thannix, the Reaper IFF,and even the Collector weaponry (that we can pick up or get via DLC).


Reaper technology, and Collector Technology, are already given metrics we can judge by. Collector technology has always been 'leading edge': ten years down the road we were developing anyways, so that the faction who receives the benefit gets a significant but temporary advantage. Decade-advanced technologies have been routinely studied and benefited from in our history for well over a century.

The Reaper tech analog to us is the Prothean discovery on Mars to pre-Mass Effect man. Which, as Anderson puts, was a two hundred year jump... which started paying significant tech gains in a matter of months (like how we got Thannix, EDI, and revese-engineered the IFF), and certainly wasn't beyond our ability to comprehend..

You're pretty much ignoring the point she made earlier about the Reapers being able to "lead us on".

Look, we get it Dean that you are the pioneer scientist who will risk anything and laugh at danger.

The Reapers are banking on scientists like you.  They've been dealing with Deans for millions of years.

They WANT you to think you can handle studying their technology.  They give you bits and bites and make you feel safe - then BAM.  You're indoctrinated.

Or BAM, you're using the Thanix cannon and the Reapers have a counter-measure.

In reality, in comparison to the Reapers, you're an ignorant primitive.

What makes you even more dangerous is that you won't even consider the idea that you're an ignorant primitive.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 13 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[Seboist]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CCG, the biggest difference is the difference in tech-curve difference. The farther up you are, the farther ahead you can reverse engineer: the knowledge base and technology to do so (to analyze composition, measure functionality, etc.) have grown exponentially, even faster than actual developments themselves. This is why the recipe for Greek Fire was nigh-uncrackable for hundreds of years, yet modern espionage can breakdown and analyze the re-engineer material unknown substances in a matter of months.

In the case of Reaper technology, we'ver already demonstrated we can study, understand, and re-use their technology... and, in the CDN, we're also fast-approaching the points of being able to analyze the very technology that was designed not to be possible to study. In ME2 alone, we're given four significant, war-shaping demonstrations of studying and ultimately benefiting from Reaper technology: EDI, the Thannix, the Reaper IFF,and even the Collector weaponry (that we can pick up or get via DLC).


Reaper technology, and Collector Technology, are already given metrics we can judge by. Collector technology has always been 'leading edge': ten years down the road we were developing anyways, so that the faction who receives the benefit gets a significant but temporary advantage. Decade-advanced technologies have been routinely studied and benefited from in our history for well over a century.

The Reaper tech analog to us is the Prothean discovery on Mars to pre-Mass Effect man. Which, as Anderson puts, was a two hundred year jump... which started paying significant tech gains in a matter of months (like how we got Thannix, EDI, and revese-engineered the IFF), and certainly wasn't beyond our ability to comprehend..

You're pretty much ignoring the point she made earlier about the Reapers being able to "lead us on".

Look, we get it Dean that you are the pioneer scientist who will risk anything and laugh at danger.

The Reapers are banking on scientists like you.  They've been dealing with Deans for millions of years.

They WANT you to think you can handle studying their technology.  They give you bits and bites and make you feel safe - then BAM.  You're indoctrinated.

Or BAM, you're using the Thanix cannon and the Reapers have a counter-measure.

In reality, in comparison to the Reapers, you're an ignorant primitive.

What makes you even more dangerous is that you won't even consider the idea that you're an ignorant primitive.

Somehow I don't think the Reapers were planning on Sovereign dying and "giving" the Thanix Canon or the Collector Base to the "primitives".

[Dean_the_Young]

Yawn.

An argument based around 'whatever you do, that's just what they wanted you to do' is a self-fulfilling prophesy that can be repeated as often as one wants. If we study their highest-level technology at their whim, which to date has never really occured (we were only intended to study and understand the ruins of the previous galactic civilization, after all, while the Mass Relays and Citadel were designed to be indecipherable but usable), well that's what they wanted us to do. And if we don't study their technology, just like we weren't meant to study the relays or Citadel, well, they well tricked us again!

It's a no-win argument no matter how you answer it so long as you let them define the terms for you. We were not 'lead on' to the Collector Base, nor were we 'lead on' to the Derilect Reaper, nor were we 'lead on' to defeat Sovereign at the Citadel, nor was the galaxy 'led on' to beat the Reaper-controlled Rachni, nor were the Protheans 'led on' to make the Conduit. The Reapers are not infallible or all-knowing, and arguments that they are continue to rest on themselves as opposed to provided indications. At this rate, the Reapers will be three steps ahead of our every move until we beat them, and even then that was Just What They Wanted.

There's no denial that we are ignorant primitives. Only an argument that we should stop being ignorant, which is done by adding knowledge, and primitive, which is based around adhering to fearful superstitions and romanticisms, and that abandoning either is better than adhering to both.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 avril 2011 - 03:32 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yawn.

An argument based around 'whatever you do, that's just what they wanted you to do' is a self-fulfilling prophesy that can be repeated as often as one wants. If we study their highest-level technology at their whim, which to date has never really occured (we were only intended to study and understand the ruins of the previous galactic civilization, after all, while the Mass Relays and Citadel were designed to be indecipherable but usable), well that's what they wanted us to do. And if we don't study their technology, just like we weren't meant to study the relays or Citadel, well, they well tricked us again!

It's a no-win argument no matter how you answer it so long as you let them define the terms for you. We were not 'lead on' to the Collector Base, nor were we 'lead on' to the Derilect Reaper, nor were we 'lead on' to defeat Sovereign at the Citadel, nor was the galaxy 'led on' to beat the Reaper-controlled Rachni, nor were the Protheans 'led on' to make the Conduit. The Reapers are not infallible or all-knowing, and arguments that they are continue to rest on themselves as opposed to provided indications. At this rate, the Reapers will be three steps ahead of our every move until we beat them, and even then that was Just What They Wanted.

There's no denial that we are ignorant primitives. Only an argument that we should stop being ignorant, which is done by adding knowledge, and primitive, which is based around adhering to fearful superstitions and romanticisms, and that abandoning either is better than adhering to both.

Yawn - Dean not agreeing with a counter-argument 100% predictable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Predicable has never meant 'wrong.' If a counterargument is filled with illogical assumptions, fallacies, or poor facts, disagreement is proper.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Predicable has never meant 'wrong.'

You yawned at my argument - so I yawned at your 100% predictability in disagreeing with whomever doesn't agree with you. No more or less than that.  You should have been able to figure that out, Dean.

[Almostfaceman]

Seboist wrote...


Somehow I don't think the Reapers were planning on Sovereign dying and "giving" the Thanix Canon or the Collector Base to the "primitives".

*cue eerie music* yes, believe that if you wish - that's exactly what THEY want you to think...

[aimlessgun]

Insane paranoia over some spreading danger in the CB is absurd to me, because it makes no sense for the CB to be used as a delivery system. If the Reapers wanted to introduce such a thing, it would be TRIVIAL to introduce it via the relays or the Citadel.

Leading us on via a base that it took a giant stroke of luck to even reach (a stroke of luck that the Reapers could not have predicted)...you're basically saying the Reapers are omniscient Gods. In which case why are you even bothering to fight them.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I honestly don't see any reason to believe it's more like giving scientists in the 1900s a nuclear reactor than giving Girolamo Fracastoro weaponized Ebola. That would imply that we are less than 100 years away from achieving all the collector technology independently, and that is not a great gap at all. I'd say we're more likely to be 500 years to 1000 years out from it, if not more, so the gap is more likely to be similar to the one I'm describing. I understand you don't imagine that they'd have any tech we couldn't understand on at least some level, even if it kills some scientists. I disagree, that may be the fundamental, unchangeable difference in our assumptions.

Some guy from the 1500's is fundamentally different from the modern scientist. The development of the scientific method is a BIG DEAL. Combined with the networking of information on a galactic scale, it completely changes the game. It isn't just about tech levels, it's about a whole new way of dealing with technology and science that simply did not exist in 1500.

This is not easy to explain, and you and many others will probably dismiss it as hubris or arrogance and think it's not that big of a deal. But it really, really is. The scientific method completely invalidates any comparison of advanced technology being given to someone in pre-modern Earth. Apples and oranges.

People seem to have this overly dramatic view of what scientists would do with this technology, mad scientist style dabbling out of some bad movie. And unfortunately, this is what ME has presented us with so far. So I guess if you were using the logic of the ME universe, there might be something there. Unfortunately I'm looking at it from a realistic perspective, which given the writing direction of ME2, probably means I am completely wrong.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 13 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[Last Vizard]

ErebUs890 wrote...

IMO, keeping the bas was always a bad idea. I think TIM had his own plans with it anyways.

of course he bloody does, noone does anything for free.... what matters is destroying the Reapers, if thane has to assasinate one more guy after that then thats ok too.

[Arijharn]

So, how is it possible to defeat the Reapers if you don't try to understand their technology? Their shields are beyond us, Indoctrination is beyond us. I mean, sure the Thanix is potentially helpful (but newsflash; that's Reaper technology! Isn't it a little hypocritical to say: 'all Reaper tech is bad and is somehow an inherent trap!' and then use Thanix weapons with impunity?) considering we don't even know if the Thanix would be powerful enough in the first place.

I'm not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that the Reapers 'planned for it all' when the only precedent set prior to this is the Mass Relay network, but the Mass Relay's (and the Citadel) are essentially giant black-boxes anyway.

also, as aimlessgun wrote:

...you're basically saying the Reapers are omniscient Gods. In which case why are you even bothering to fight them.

Which I think is a short hop, skip and jump too:

Isn't submission preferable to extinction?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

We already know two ways to beat the reapers, or at least slow them down.

Thing one: the relays are the one thing that we aren't meant to understand. Understanding them was how the Protheans made the first step toward rebellion. So do that.

Thing two: Railgun. That. Fires. Asteroids.

Seriously! That cannot be that hard to make! And we've seen it work! Several times! Sir Isaac Newton is the Deadliest Son of a **** in Space! 

I've provided extensive lists of projects I think are better uses for our funding than the CB, things I think will produce equally effective results. Ilos being one of them. The planetary system around the Derelict Reaper site being another... there is the fallout from their railgun that shoots asteroids there... we just have to figure out what the mass was, and what the speed was, and we'll know what's enough mass and speed to put a nice hole in a Reaper. It's basic physics. The Hanar homeworld might have some more secrets. The Citadel probably has some stuff buried in it.

I'm not saying don't study anything. I'm saying that if there is any tech that probably is designed to warp the society that uses it... it's collector tech.

And I'm saying this: the Reapers are not Gods. They are machines with one simple plan - use technology in order to predict the actions and developments of new sentient species. Outside of that particular plan, they seem to scramble lost in the dark. So our tactics should be to do anything BUT play into that particular plan. Draw on our own history for tactics, and the history of the Protheans - a race that wasn't trying to destroy us. Rely on our own science, and the science independently developed by historical organics. Do not do the expected thing.

Don't put words in my mouth about submission. This entire time I've said "Better dead than Smeg," and I believe it.  I just think that submission takes many forms, and all of them should be avoided.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 avril 2011 - 11:37 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

We already know two ways to beat the reapers, or at least slow them down.

Thing one: the relays are the one thing that we aren't meant to understand. Understanding them was how the Protheans made the first step toward rebellion. So do that.

Thing two: Railgun. That. Fires. Asteroids.

Seriously! That cannot be that hard to make!

Time consuming, expensive, and too complex to produce in large enough quantities to matter.

Remember, the civilization that built the weapon that scarred Klendagon was still wiped out.

Sure. Every civilization has been wiped out. The Protheans used the conduit and they were wiped out! We shouldn't have used the conduit! 

Maybe that was their last planet. Maybe that was their only planet. Maybe that was their Ilos. We don't have any way of knowing.

We also don't know what the budget for that Railgun thing is... or did you not read the part of Galactic history where the Krogans bombarded Turian Colony worlds with asteroids in order to make them uninhabitable? Murder lizards had some version of this tech! Murder lizards who never independently developed spaceflight! Maybe that version of it isn't good enough to kill Reapers, it probably isn't, but combine that with our Railgun tech and the Salarians salarianism, and now you're cooking with flaming hunks of rock.

But hey, again maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the technology given by a species that brainwashes with its tech to a species that was brainwashed with tech doesn't brainwash with tech. I'm just saying that if it turns out that some people get brainwashed by that tech, don't say they didn't warn you.

[Arijharn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

We already know two ways to beat the reapers, or at least slow them down.

Thing one: the relays are the one thing that we aren't meant to understand. Understanding them was how the Protheans made the first step toward rebellion. So do that.

It's a bit rich for you to say this really when we've been saying this in principle the entire time, but i'll just say let this simmer for a bit.

CGG wrote...
Thing two: Railgun. That. Fires. Asteroids.

Seriously! That cannot be that hard to make! And we've seen it work! Several times! Sir Isaac Newton is the Deadliest Son of a **** in Space! 

I don't know about you, but I would think that Scorched Earth responses should be the last resort when planning your military strategy, not the first.

In other words, I don't think Pyhrric victories is something that you should strive for especially since we have alternatives.

CGG wrote...
I've provided extensive lists of projects I think are better uses for our funding than the CB, things I think will produce equally effective results. Ilos being one of them. The planetary system around the Derelict Reaper site being another... there is the fallout from their railgun that shoots asteroids there... we just have to figure out what the mass was, and what the speed was, and we'll know what's enough mass and speed to put a nice hole in a Reaper. It's basic physics. The Hanar homeworld might have some more secrets. The Citadel probably has some stuff buried in it.

There's far too many probables in this to be accepted as anything more than wild flights of fancy imo (as in; it's even less 'founded' than anything us 'Pro-base' people have put up, which you accept as meritous anyway). Prothean technology is practically our technology, the only thing super impressive as things go about the Protheans is them actually reverse-engineering and developing their own Mass Relay. Additionally, apparently we have the scientific know-how, just the political (and fiscal?) disinclination to do so if Liara's Dear Dad was right.

CGG wrote...
I'm not saying don't study anything. I'm saying that if there is any tech that probably is designed to warp the society that uses it... it's collector tech.

Yet, there's no other way to find out about Indoctrination, and Collector tech is the best hope we have since it's above galactic standard. We're between a rock and a hard place, and giving that we're standing over the precipice of the Abyss, it seems pretty foolish not to pick up that spear.

CGG wrote...
And I'm saying this: the Reapers are not Gods. They are machines with one simple plan - use technology in order to predict the actions and developments of new sentient species. Outside of that particular plan, they seem to scramble lost in the dark. So our tactics should be to do anything BUT play into that particular plan. Draw on our own history for tactics, and the history of the Protheans - a race that wasn't trying to destroy us. Rely on our own science, and the science independently developed by historical organics. Do not do the expected thing.

The mass relay is the one technology that the Reapers have put in our way to force our technology to 'evolve on paths that they desire.' We had to fight tooth and nail for everything else, ergo it is illogical to assume that somehow the Reapers accounted for it ahead of schedule.
We had to fight and kill Sovereign to get EDI and the Thanix
We had to board an already destroyed Reaper to get access to a Reaper IFF to even access the O4 gate. What, you think the Reapers are just going to snigger to themselves and say "Haha, 37 million years from now a species is going to find my corpse (*cryface*) to get it." I mean honestly, doesn't that sort of stretch your sense of disbelief just a little bit?

While I think there may be some merit to your idea of making giant mass accelerator weapons, it seems a bit impractical as well. One, they're obviously going to only hold certain key locations, but holding key locations isn't going to be enough to win the war in and of itself and two; it's prohibitively expensive to build (which is why they haven't been built already!). That's assuming of course that there's even enough time to build them when the Reapers show up.

Modifié par Arijharn, 14 avril 2011 - 12:30 .