864 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

A railgun that shoots asteroids is a mass accelerator canon. If you want a bigger mass accellerator canon, using asteroids as ammo would be about the worst ammo you could use. Besides which, making an effective MAC would be cheaper, easier, and more powerful with more advanced technology... such as is found in the Collector Base.

Studying the Citadel is a nice-sounding proposition, until one remembers that the Citadel and the Mass Relays were designed to be as hard to decipher as possible. The Collector Base was not: any gains you think duplicated in those Reaper relics come with a deliberately higher difficulty to analyze, while any threats you fear in the Collector Base (which was never meant to be found) are even more plausible and possible in the Citadel (which was meant to be found and directly affect the species). If you're worried that the inside of the Collector Base might indoctrinate you, you can and should be just as terrified that the inside of the Citadel is meant to turn anyone who manages to break in. The Citadel is the trojan horse of the Reapers, not the Collector Base.

Collector technology is the least 'corruptive' Reaper technology, not that there really is any, because it's deliberately gifted as a way to lead, but not direct, natural tech development. The galaxy doesn't develop the tech given because some pirates have it first... the pirates are given the tech because the galaxy is goingto develop it soon anyway. Collector tech (that would be sent to the galaxy) is the stuff that we would develop anyway in a decade or so.

The Collector and Reaper technology they don't have any intention of trading, like the Collectors themselves or the pure-Reaper tech in the base, were not things any species were supposed to grab.

[FlintlockJazz]

The Collectors give out technology as trade in order to assist organic development along certain lines. It would not surprise me if they often gifted technology just when an alternate technology was about to be developed in order to prevent it. As Legion states, taking one path blinds you to other possibilities...

[Dean_the_Young]

The Collectors give out technology in trade to the margins of society who don't direct societal development. They don't go up to, say, the Citadel Council and go 'we'll save you ten years of time of research and development by giving you this in exchange for this', they go to the meanest, nastiest, reclusive pirates or mad scientists ostracized by society and go 'we'll give you what's going to be common place in a decade, and is just slightly beyond cutting edge right now.'

The Collectors gambit is aimed at the evolution of the path we're already on, not pushing our society towards it. There is no single 'path' that the Reapers care about: we could be ourselves, we could do psychic-mind beacon technology, we could do genetic starships like the Leviathan of Dis, it wouldn't matter to them. There is no narrow path they care about or must keep us on: mass effect tech itself is the focus, not least because it's such a dominant technology that trying not to use it while others do would be a losing strategy.

The technology to make Grunt was a natural progression of the high-level genetics of the genophage project. The particle beam weaponry is a successor to the experimental direct-energy weapons we can see being developed in ME1's weapon mods. Better targetting programs for weapons already adopted, better mass effect cores for a civilization already devoted to mass effect drives...

Legion is hardly an authority figure on tech development, and more than a little hypocritical besides.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 avril 2011 - 01:03 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Of course the Collectors don't go straight up to the Citadel Council, it would draw too much attention and raise too many questions. They drop it off to a small group and let it get dispersed through the galaxy naturally. Sovereign stated that they direct organic civilisations down the path they want them to go, imposing order on the chaotic randomness of organic evolution. They steer organics to the destination they want, probably because they themselves are blind to alternate paths (theory time, the reapers may be at a technological dead end, all their path does is lead to your race becoming a reaper and then ends, and so they use the chaos of organic evolution to create slight variances in their path to result in new technology they themselves could not develop and then eat the organics before they can deviate further and become a threat to the reapers).

The reapers cannot guarantee that just leaving the relays and citadel will be enough to maintain organics on the 'right path', the whole point is that organic evolution is chaotic and unpredictable after all, and so having contingencies to ensure that the deviation is not too greats to become threatening and unusable is required, in the form of the collectors...

[Almostfaceman]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

 After reading a few excerpts from GI, I guess keeping the base is confirmed as the a idea (No love for the renegades). Not going to post why, but if you read it you'll understand. 

Still hella excited about ME 3. 

Shepard has never kept the base.  Shepard can choose to give the base to TiM or destroy it.

Me, I choose not to give the base to creepy unknowable guy who's answerable to no-one.

[aimlessgun]

To all the people paranoid about traps and manipulation, have you ever considered that sovereign's line about directing organics along certain paths was itself a manipulation, prompting you to be overcautious and reluctant to unlock Reaper secrets? That's the level of paranoia you're engaging in when assuming the Collector base is a preplanned delivery mechanism for Reaper traps.

FlintlockJazz wrote...
As Legion states, taking one path blinds you to other possibilities...

That's just some vague catchphrase that has no basis in fact. It's as much mumbo jumbo as "messing with forces we don't understand". Science isn't like some RPG talent tree where you only have so many points to put into various paths.

[Biotic_Warlock]

It's a shame keeping the base is so renegade... it would be nice to have an insect hive for a holiday home.

[Dean_the_Young]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Of course the Collectors don't go straight up to the Citadel Council, it would draw too much attention and raise too many questions. They drop it off to a small group and let it get dispersed through the galaxy naturally. Sovereign stated that they direct organic civilisations down the path they want them to go, imposing order on the chaotic randomness of organic evolution. They steer organics to the destination they want, probably because they themselves are blind to alternate paths (theory time, the reapers may be at a technological dead end, all their path does is lead to your race becoming a reaper and then ends, and so they use the chaos of organic evolution to create slight variances in their path to result in new technology they themselves could not develop and then eat the organics before they can deviate further and become a threat to the reapers).

The Collector technology doesn't dispers across the galaxy from the small group they give it to. The technology is that which is already about to be developed anyway: whether the pirates in question share the tech or not, it's soon to be developed regardless. The Collectors aren't a source of galactic tech-pathing, which is why they're able to stay off the grid. All Collector trades ever referenced have not been revolutionary deciders of tech-paths, but significant incrimental improvements.

The reapers cannot guarantee that just leaving the relays and citadel will be enough to maintain organics on the 'right path', the whole point is that organic evolution is chaotic and unpredictable after all, and so having contingencies to ensure that the deviation is not too greats to become threatening and unusable is required, in the form of the collectors...

Since the 'right path' is the Mass Relay network and citadel... yes. Once the aliens are on those literal paths, and the economies of scale and advantage ultimately insure that because if one faction doesn't another faction can, will, and will dominate, the Reapers already have it.

The galactic history of tech is already incredibly varied. There is no imagined rigid uniformity of technology across the cycles.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Paragon Shepards always blow up everything they can that's Reaper-based (never learning or trying to learn how to stop them) and is the only Shepard that doubts whether or not they can win.

Make of that what you will...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

If I had the option to not give it to terrorists, I'd consider it.

Alas, that isn't the case.

[Almostfaceman]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon Shepards always blow up everything they can that's Reaper-based (never learning or trying to learn how to stop them) and is the only Shepard that doubts whether or not they can win.

Make of that what you will...

*cough* Thanix cannon *cough* EDI *cough* study keepers *cough* study Protheans *cough* expects Council/Alliance to study remains of Sovereign *cough* 

Again, the choice at the collector base is NOT if Shep will study the technology - it is whether or not he'll hand it over to creepy, elusive, reclusive, dodgy, answerable-to-nobody Jack Harper.

*cough*

-damn need some Nyquil 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon Shepards always blow up everything they can that's Reaper-based (never learning or trying to learn how to stop them) and is the only Shepard that doubts whether or not they can win.

Make of that what you will...

*cough* Thanix cannon *cough* EDI *cough* study keepers *cough* study Protheans *cough* expects Council/Alliance to study remains of Sovereign *cough* 

Again, the choice at the collector base is NOT if Shep will study the technology - it is whether or not he'll hand it over to creepy, elusive, reclusive, dodgy, answerable-to-nobody Jack Harper.

*cough*

-damn need some Nyquil 

Here try this "they couldn't blow those up (or blow them up more)" flavor of Nyquil

He also found out through Anderson that the Council/Alliance didn't have much to study from the remains of Sovereign.  The Turians got the good stuff (that's where the Thanix came from).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 avril 2011 - 05:35 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For the record, the "Paragon" Shepard being the only one doubting they can win against the Reapers is a fact (not my opinion), lol

[Someone With Mass]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

He also found out through Anderson that the Council/Alliance didn't have much to study from the remains of Sovereign.  The Turians got the good stuff (that's where the Thanix came from).

That's the official story. Those sneaky bastards are cooking something up.

[Almostfaceman]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon Shepards always blow up everything they can that's Reaper-based (never learning or trying to learn how to stop them) and is the only Shepard that doubts whether or not they can win.

Make of that what you will...

*cough* Thanix cannon *cough* EDI *cough* study keepers *cough* study Protheans *cough* expects Council/Alliance to study remains of Sovereign *cough* 

Again, the choice at the collector base is NOT if Shep will study the technology - it is whether or not he'll hand it over to creepy, elusive, reclusive, dodgy, answerable-to-nobody Jack Harper.

*cough*

-damn need some Nyquil 

Here try this "they couldn't blow those up (or blow them up more)" flavor of Nyquil

He also found out through Anderson that the Council/Alliance didn't have much to study from the remains of Sovereign.  The Turians got the good stuff (that's where the Thanix came from).

Yes, I know that's what Anderson says - my point was that Paragon's don't try to blow up or not study Reaper tech - my Paragon actually expected the Council to study Sovereign - which indicates he's not against studying Reaper tech.  My Paragon Shep didn't blow up his Thanix cannon or blow up EDI, even when he found out they were part Reaper tech.

My Paragon Shep would have been just fine handing over the Collector base to the Council, the Alliance, and Cerberus all at the same time - he just didn't have that choice.

Honestly, I think the Collector Base decision is more a choice about how much you trust TiM and TiM only - because he plainly doesn't share his Reaper discoveries with the rest of the galaxy.  If he's figured out how to use Reaper Tech to make an A.I. - if he were truly interested in fighting the Reapers he could demonstrate the science to the Alliance and the Council to convince them the Reapers are real and super-advanced.  Even if they end up not believing him he can at least say he tried - because aren't the stakes galactic extinction?  I mean really, is this the time to get in a pissing match about who knows what about the Reapers?  TiM's priorities seem - odd and selfish to say the least.

[Almostfaceman]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

For the record, the "Paragon" Shepard being the only one doubting they can win against the Reapers is a fact (not my opinion), lol

Oh, you're talking about the "tell me what you really think" dialogue between Shep and Liara when she visits aboard the Normandy?

Meh, I've had full Renegade bars and answered that various ways.  Same with Paragon.  So that proves I can be a full Renegade and still doubt I'll win.  One choice does not a Paragon or Renegade make - you should know - it's a pattern of choices.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

If I had the option to not give it to terrorists, I'd consider it.

Alas, that isn't the case.

But you can give it to Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But you can give it to Cerberus.

Ha-ha...

[Dean_the_Young]

Hey, until Mass Effect gives support for calling them terrorists, as opposed to a smear...

By all our current knowledge, Cerberus doesn't qualify as a terrorist group. It's too not-public, and doesn't aim for or work through fear. It's really more of a cabal.

[Last Vizard]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragon Shepards always blow up everything they can that's Reaper-based (never learning or trying to learn how to stop them) and is the only Shepard that doubts whether or not they can win.

Make of that what you will...

*cough* Thanix cannon *cough* EDI *cough* study keepers *cough* study Protheans *cough* expects Council/Alliance to study remains of Sovereign *cough* 

Again, the choice at the collector base is NOT if Shep will study the technology - it is whether or not he'll hand it over to creepy, elusive, reclusive, dodgy, answerable-to-nobody Jack Harper.

*cough*

-damn need some Nyquil 

Here try this "they couldn't blow those up (or blow them up more)" flavor of Nyquil

He also found out through Anderson that the Council/Alliance didn't have much to study from the remains of Sovereign.  The Turians got the good stuff (that's where the Thanix came from).

Yes, I know that's what Anderson says - my point was that Paragon's don't try to blow up or not study Reaper tech - my Paragon actually expected the Council to study Sovereign - which indicates he's not against studying Reaper tech.  My Paragon Shep didn't blow up his Thanix cannon or blow up EDI, even when he found out they were part Reaper tech.

My Paragon Shep would have been just fine handing over the Collector base to the Council, the Alliance, and Cerberus all at the same time - he just didn't have that choice.

Honestly, I think the Collector Base decision is more a choice about how much you trust TiM and TiM only - because he plainly doesn't share his Reaper discoveries with the rest of the galaxy.  If he's figured out how to use Reaper Tech to make an A.I. - if he were truly interested in fighting the Reapers he could demonstrate the science to the Alliance and the Council to convince them the Reapers are real and super-advanced.  Even if they end up not believing him he can at least say he tried - because aren't the stakes galactic extinction?  I mean really, is this the time to get in a pissing match about who knows what about the Reapers?  TiM's priorities seem - odd and selfish to say the least.

I think TIM would be mad if he didn't use this to his advantage and use the coming war with the Reapers to his advantage as well, i'm obviously pro-human but i don't hate aliens, i love the Krogans, feel for the Quarians and respect the Turians but that doesn't mean that i don't want Humanity to be a force to be reckoned with and if that means some tactical maneuvers then so be it.

TIM deserves to rule after bringing Shep back to save the galaxy... no TIM, no Shep in ME 2 and ME 3 = Reapers win.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

For the record, the "Paragon" Shepard being the only one doubting they can win against the Reapers is a fact (not my opinion), lol

Oh, you're talking about the "tell me what you really think" dialogue between Shep and Liara when she visits aboard the Normandy?

Meh, I've had full Renegade bars and answered that various ways.  Same with Paragon.  So that proves I can be a full Renegade and still doubt I'll win.  One choice does not a Paragon or Renegade make - you should know - it's a pattern of choices.

I was actually referring to the Arrival DLC when Shepard talks to Harbinger.  Paragon Shepard essentially tells Harbinger he has doubts about if they can win.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, until Mass Effect gives support for calling them terrorists, as opposed to a smear...

By all our current knowledge, Cerberus doesn't qualify as a terrorist group. It's too not-public, and doesn't aim for or work through fear. It's really more of a cabal.

That still doesn't justify even half the stuff they're doing for that incredibly lame "cause" of theirs. They're delusional clowns with too much money and manpower they got from the Alliance rejection list at best.

And if people on Omega knows about Cerberus, I'd say it's pretty common knowledge that they're a bunch of idiotic terrorists.

The Migrant Fleet knows about Cerberus too. And don't tell me 17 million quarians doesn't count as some form of public. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It still seems like a little bit of a stretch to me but I understand those who blow up the base.

To me though, it's a little inconsistent. Shepard's more than willing to work with Cerberus... (with all of their hate tags) to save Humanity from the Collectors. But now all of the sudden, the moral high ground must be taken when the entire galaxy's at stake?

Just seems inconsistent to me.

[Almostfaceman]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It still seems like a little bit of a stretch to me but I understand those who blow up the base.

To me though, it's a little inconsistent. Shepard's more than willing to work with Cerberus... (with all of their hate tags) to save Humanity from the Collectors. But now all of the sudden, the moral high ground must be taken when the entire galaxy's at stake?

Just seems inconsistent to me.

Well for sure the game isn't perfect - I mean - if I really had my choice I wouldn't be working solely with TiM, I'd mainly work with Anderson and use Cerberus intel if handy.  But, the game doesn't let me do that.  So, I **** and moan and tell TiM I don't trust him as much as I can with what options the game gives me.  So I stay as consistent as much as the game allows.  No big deal, really. Just a game.

[Elite Midget]

Il'l make it easy for you.

Paragon Choice = Right Choice. Always.
Renegade Choice = You get shafted in favor of the Paragon Choice. Always.