864 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

For a certain selective definition of 'complete failure.'

[CulturalGeekGirl]

lovgreno wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I can summarize! 

Pro: But we use the mass relays and the citadel, and it was by studying them that the Protheans managed to strike back! Also they didn't mean for us to have the CB, so it's obviously not part of their plan! Also it would make sense for these things to indoctrinate or manipulate, because they were hidden. Also, thanix cannon, EDI, collector particle beam.

Con: Yeah... all that stuff still doesn't actually prove that it won't manipulate you.

The end.

I think these are actualy good reasons both for keeping it and destroying it.

Seeing as my central argument in this thread is that there is insufficient evidence to determine which course of action is better, so everyone's decisions are valid, I thank you.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Moral issues aside, Is handing TIM the technology to build his own Reaper, a good idea? Can he be trusted not to try and develop his own version of a 'shackled' Reaper to combat the Reapers? That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, especially given Cerberus' track record with their experiments.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]They can always rebuild it if you destroy it, while they wouldn't be able to take advantage of it if you didn't without winning the war regardless.

Sure, the Reapers could rebuild the base if you destroy it. But the construction of the base wouldn't happen overnight. Given the logistics it would at least take months to rebuild, if not longer. If you keep the base however the Reapers could easily retake it, and put it back to it's original purpose immediately.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 16 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Also, Tim cannot be counted on for one very important thing: proper operational discipline when it comes to research.  Dude's history is full of: 

"Study this for me." 
"Ok."
/something horrible


Which is fine when you're just runing a bunch of people's lives with your mistakes. But a single indoctrination mistake that you don't expect and wham bam sleeper agent ma'am.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[lovgreno]

Cerberus and TIMmy can't be trusted to do anything. But in TIMmys defence I must say that he never expects Shepard or anyone else to trust him either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Moral issues aside, Is handing TIM the technology to build his own Reaper, a good idea? Can he be trusted not to try and develop his own version of a 'shackled' Reaper to combat the Reapers?

Yes.

That isn't a risk I'm willing to take, especially given Cerberus' track record with their experiments.

Let's try and go back to answering the fear of 'how would Cerberu abduct millions of Humans and launch an attack on Earth to provide the bodies to make a Reaper?'

This hypothetical experiment can't even begin until Cerberus posseses abilities far beyond its capabilities, let alone proven desires... as if anyone wants to make a Reaper in the first place.

(It's really, really stupid when you can just make ships with Reaper guns, Reaper engines, Reaper E-zero cores, and Reaper shields without any need for processing people or installing AI.)

Sure, the Reapers could rebuild the base if you destroy it. But the construction of the base wouldn't happen overnight. Given the logistics it would at least take months to rebuild, if not longer. If you keep the base however the Reapers could easily retake it, and put it back to it's original purpose immediately.

Which is dependent on shipping millions of humans to Omega 4 and processing them. Again, a task of monthes, and something that can only really be done once the 'supply lines' are secured as well.

And what for? A single Reaper, which can only be completed after the decisive point of the conflict.


Meanwhile, this is ignoring the plentiful array of incredibly simple countermeasures to not let the Reapers re-capture the base, and instead just handwaving it as an assumption that the Reapers can, and want to, capture it as a priority.

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Also, Tim cannot be counted on for one very important thing: proper operational discipline when it comes to research.  Dude's history is full of: 

"Study this for me." 
"Ok."
/something horrible


Which is fine when you're just runing a bunch of people's lives with your mistakes. But a single indoctrination mistake that you don't expect and wham bam sleeper agent ma'am.

This goes back to the nature of indoctrination risks. How long an indoctrination victim can actually function without noticable implants, as well as the different types of indoctrination: the 'huskify me' type, the relic guardians, and the 'secrete agent' type which has only been known to occur under direct control.


Mind you, even sleep agents aren't necessarily an end-all-be-all: that conclusion has to be justified by the sleeper agent being in position. If we want to metagame anything, we can also look at what happens when the Reapers get a super-agent Avatar.

[lovgreno]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Seeing as my central argument in this thread is that there is insufficient evidence to determine which course of action is better, so everyone's decisions are valid, I thank you.

My opinion exactly. As I have no fear of being wrong and are content with waiting for the end of ME3 i have no problem with considering many different possibilities.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Also, Tim cannot be counted on for one very important thing: proper operational discipline when it comes to research.  Dude's history is full of: 

"Study this for me." 
"Ok."
/something horrible


Which is fine when you're just runing a bunch of people's lives with your mistakes. But a single indoctrination mistake that you don't expect and wham bam sleeper agent ma'am.

This goes back to the nature of indoctrination risks. How long an indoctrination victim can actually function without noticable implants, as well as the different types of indoctrination: the 'huskify me' type, the relic guardians, and the 'secrete agent' type which has only been known to occur under direct control.


Mind you, even sleep agents aren't necessarily an end-all-be-all: that conclusion has to be justified by the sleeper agent being in position. If we want to metagame anything, we can also look at what happens when the Reapers get a super-agent Avatar.

You just proved my point.

Well the holo on Ilos (yeah I know, that dude is like my best friend) seemed to indicate that, even when they knew what to look for, the Protheans couldn't tell who the heck was indoctrinated until it was far too late, even after they had been fighting the Reapers for decades. They'd find some survivors who seemed perfectly normal and then a month or two later, BAM the Reapers show up and reap the hidden colony.

But most people don't know this, they assume "Enh. indoctrination, I'll know it when I see it. So we can just... take all these safeties off... have a sleepover in the base, you know! Stuff!"

This seems to be the core method of all Cerberus research thingies. "We're not getting the results we want." "Ok, elimnate all safety protocols!" "Roger that!" 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You just proved my point.

Well the holo on Ilos (yeah I know, that dude is like my best friend) seemed to indicate that, even when they knew what to look for, the Protheans couldn't tell who the heck was indoctrinated until it was far too late, even after they had been fighting the Reapers for decades. They'd find some survivors who seemed perfectly normal and then a month or two later, BAM the Reapers show up and reap the hidden colony.

But most people don't know this, they assume "Enh. indoctrination, I'll know it when I see it. So we can just... take all these safeties off... have a sleepover in the base, you know! Stuff!" 

I'm afraid I'm not sure what point you feel I proved, CGC.

Categorizing different types of indoctrination, and their risks, isn't the same as ignoring the risks. Only categorizing them.

Moreover, we do know that indoctrination requires prolonged exposure. It isn't instant, and it's dishonest to assert as if it were. And we can just as well take your piece just one bit further: 'oh, agent INSERT NAME has deactivated safeties,' says techie across Omega Relay. 'He must be indoctrinated and not know we set those as dummies. Send in the clean-up crew.'

And tadah. An indoctrination-detection trap.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus can be trusted to do what Cerberus says it will do... and to use that knowledge against the Reapers as well.

Also, Tim cannot be counted on for one very important thing: proper operational discipline when it comes to research.  Dude's history is full of: 

"Study this for me." 
"Ok."
/something horrible


Which is fine when you're just runing a bunch of people's lives with your mistakes. But a single indoctrination mistake that you don't expect and wham bam sleeper agent ma'am.

This goes back to the nature of indoctrination risks. How long an indoctrination victim can actually function without noticable implants, as well as the different types of indoctrination: the 'huskify me' type, the relic guardians, and the 'secrete agent' type which has only been known to occur under direct control.


Mind you, even sleep agents aren't necessarily an end-all-be-all: that conclusion has to be justified by the sleeper agent being in position. If we want to metagame anything, we can also look at what happens when the Reapers get a super-agent Avatar.

You just proved my point.

Well the holo on Ilos (yeah I know, that dude is like my best friend) seemed to indicate that, even when they knew what to look for, the Protheans couldn't tell who the heck was indoctrinated until it was far too late, even after they had been fighting the Reapers for decades. They'd find some survivors who seemed perfectly normal and then a month or two later, BAM the Reapers show up and reap the hidden colony.

But most people don't know this, they assume "Enh. indoctrination, I'll know it when I see it. So we can just... take all these safeties off... have a sleepover in the base, you know! Stuff!"

This seems to be the core method of all Cerberus research thingies. "We're not getting the results we want." "Ok, elimnate all safety protocols!" "Roger that!" 

*looks at Mass Effect: Evolution*

TiM is a sleeper agent.

*runs*

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

*looks at Mass Effect: Evolution*

TiM is a sleeper agent.

*runs*

Reapers: Alright, let's whisper in this dude's head.
Reapers: Can you hear us?
TIM: Woah, whispering! Who's whispering in my ear? Is it that hot lady from the counter?
Reapers: No! We're the Reapers, your destruction is inevitable!
TIM: Oh snap, you want to destroy us? That's cool, want help?
Reapers: NO! We demand that you assist in the destruction of our factory, our pet species and find technology that will assist in the destruction of our kind!
TIM: Are... are you sure that's wise? I mean, look at it! This Reaper artifact is all shiny and I can just jump onto it!
Reapers: No! Find Shepard, bring him(her) back to life and destroy us!
TIM: O-kay...

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 07:04 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

You just proved my point.

Well the holo on Ilos (yeah I know, that dude is like my best friend) seemed to indicate that, even when they knew what to look for, the Protheans couldn't tell who the heck was indoctrinated until it was far too late, even after they had been fighting the Reapers for decades. They'd find some survivors who seemed perfectly normal and then a month or two later, BAM the Reapers show up and reap the hidden colony.

But most people don't know this, they assume "Enh. indoctrination, I'll know it when I see it. So we can just... take all these safeties off... have a sleepover in the base, you know! Stuff!" 

I'm afraid I'm not sure what point you feel I proved, CGC.

Categorizing different types of indoctrination, and their risks, isn't the same as ignoring the risks. Only categorizing them.

Moreover, we do know that indoctrination requires prolonged exposure. It isn't instant, and it's dishonest to assert as if it were. And we can just as well take your piece just one bit further: 'oh, agent INSERT NAME has deactivated safeties,' says techie across Omega Relay. 'He must be indoctrinated and not know we set those as dummies. Send in the clean-up crew.'

And tadah. An indoctrination-detection trap.

I'm saying that you don't know enough to concretely categorize all the different kinds of indoctrination. You can list the ones you've seen, sort of, but that's the limit. You don't know for sure what the symptoms of each kind are, or that there isn't some kind you haven't encountered yet. Acting as if know enough about indoctrination to fully categorize it shows a level of confidence which makes me nervous. The first rule of indoctrination club is we don't know anything about indoctrination club.

And I'm not saying that they'd release the safeties because they're indoctrinated. I'm saying they'd release the safeties because Cerberus always starts out with proper safety precautions and then loosens them to try to get a faster result: Subject Zero, Overlord, Derelict Reaper. If the research isn't going as fast as TIM wants, and he says "get me results or I put in a new project lead" do you think the project lead is going to keep playing by the rules?

Yes there are ways around this: ways to be as careful as is humanly possible. I haven't seen any evidence that Cerberus will consistently use those kinds of procedures or command structures.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 07:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm saying that you don't know enough to concretely categorize all the different kinds of indoctrination. You can list the ones you've seen, sort of, but that's the limit. You don't know for sure what the symptoms of each kind are, or that there isn't some kind you haven't encountered yet. Acting as if know enough about indoctrination to fully categorize it shows a level of confidence which makes me nervous. The first rule of indoctrination club is we don't know anything about indoctrination club.

That first rules is invalid because we do know things about indoctrination club. We may not know enough to make firm categories, but we can make general categories, and those general categories can inform our risk-assessment.

And I'm not saying that they'd release the safeties because they're indoctrinated. I'm saying they'd release the safeties because Cerberus always starts out with proper safety precautions and then loosens them to try to get a faster result: Subject Zero, Overlord, Derelict Reaper. If the research isn't going as fast as TIM wants, and he says "get me results or I put in a new project lead" do you think the project lead is going to keep playing by the rules?

It depends on the project leader. We really don't know what/any safeties were dropped in regards to the Derelict Reaper crew, while we do know that even in the end Overlord kept some on standby. Given that all three failed (or not) for different reasons, grouping them all together to make a point is as convincing on its own as an argument about how, because we can't domesticate giraffes, zebras, or hippos, we shouldn't try for a new species of 'horse.'

Do not disregard the factor of failure, but instead look at the plausible costs of failure, and the difficulty of mitigation.

Yes there are ways around this: ways to be as careful as is humanly possible. I haven't seen any evidence that Cerberus will consistently use those kinds of procedures or command structures.

There's another: be careful enough that messups don't create too much of a problem for greater efforts.

Much broader. Generally what does apply in regards to Cerberus. Even, ironically, when the Reapers got a rampant, free Reaper Avatar.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

*looks at Mass Effect: Evolution*

TiM is a sleeper agent.

*runs*

Reapers: Alright, let's whisper in this dude's head.
Reapers: Can you hear us?
TIM: Woah, whispering! Who's whispering in my ear? Is it that hot lady from the counter?
Reapers: No! We're the Reapers, your destruction is inevitable!
TIM: Oh snap, you want to destroy us? That's cool, want help?
Reapers: NO! We demand that you assist in the destruction of our factory, our pet species and find technology that will assist in the destruction of our kind!
TIM: Are... are you sure that's wise? I mean, look at it! This Reaper artifact is all shiny and I can just jump onto it!
Reapers: No! Find Shepard, bring him(her) back to life and destroy us!
TIM: O-kay...

A sleeper agent is a spy who is placed in a target country or organization, not to undertake an immediate mission, but rather to act as a potential asset if activated. Sleeper agents are popular plot devices in fiction, in particular espionage fiction and science fiction

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

A sleeper agent is a spy who is placed in a target country or organization, not to undertake an immediate mission, but rather to act as a potential asset if activated. Sleeper agents are popular plot devices in fiction, in particular espionage fiction and science fiction

I know that, though I heavily doubt he's been in sleeper status for almost half a century.

edit: The Reapers openly allowed him to destroy everything of theirs? They didn't decide "time to activate him and kill Shepard?".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 07:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

And yet, Dave's point still stands.

Imagine that.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, Dave's point still stands.

Imagine that.

No it doesn't.

Imagine that.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

A sleeper agent is a spy who is placed in a target country or organization, not to undertake an immediate mission, but rather to act as a potential asset if activated. Sleeper agents are popular plot devices in fiction, in particular espionage fiction and science fiction

I know that, though I heavily doubt he's been in sleeper status for almost half a century.

edit: The Reapers openly allowed him to destroy everything of theirs? They didn't decide "time to activate him and kill Shepard?".

I think he's a sleeper agent, the particular circumstances of his activation - unknown at this point.  We'll see. Until he's activated, he doesn't know he's an agent.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, Dave's point still stands.

Imagine that.

In fiction, particularly science fiction, sleeper agents fall into two categories. The first is an extension of the real world sleeper agent where an enemy agent is substituted for a person already in a trusted position. The second and more common category involve people who have been subjected to mind control techniques, such as drugs, torture, psychological conditioning, implanted devices, and even telepathic manipulation who then are either released, or allowed to escape back to friendly territory. These sleeper agents are then used by enemy forces to spy, to conduct sabotage, to assassinate certain targets, or for other operations the enemy has in mind for them. During these outbreaks, the sleeper agent doesn't normally know what he/she is doing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm saying that you don't know enough to concretely categorize all the different kinds of indoctrination. You can list the ones you've seen, sort of, but that's the limit. You don't know for sure what the symptoms of each kind are, or that there isn't some kind you haven't encountered yet. Acting as if know enough about indoctrination to fully categorize it shows a level of confidence which makes me nervous. The first rule of indoctrination club is we don't know anything about indoctrination club.

That first rules is invalid because we do know things about indoctrination club. We may not know enough to make firm categories, but we can make general categories, and those general categories can inform our risk-assessment.

I don't want to turn this into a Zulu-style quotem pole argument but, ok: What category would you put the long-term sleeper agents mentioned on Ilos into? People who do not act remotely strangely or take any action on the Reaper's behalf until months or years after they are exposed to the Reapers? And how do you assess the risk of those? You seem to be ignoring them entirely in your categorization and risk assessment.

And I'm not saying that they'd release the safeties because they're indoctrinated. I'm saying they'd release the safeties because Cerberus always starts out with proper safety precautions and then loosens them to try to get a faster result: Subject Zero, Overlord, Derelict Reaper. If the research isn't going as fast as TIM wants, and he says "get me results or I put in a new project lead" do you think the project lead is going to keep playing by the rules?

It depends on the project leader. We really don't know what/any safeties were dropped in regards to the Derelict Reaper crew, while we do know that even in the end Overlord kept some on standby. Given that all three failed (or not) for different reasons, grouping them all together to make a point is as convincing on its own as an argument about how, because we can't domesticate giraffes, zebras, or hippos, we shouldn't try for a new species of 'horse.'

It should be pretty clear that this isn't the argument I'm making. What I'm arguing is this: if your zookeeper has let the lions, tigers, and bears escape and maul passers-by, is he the one you want to trust with your herd of live Velociraptors? I'd rather kill those Velociraptors, like that one expert on dangerous animals said we should. Then we'd have our goddam dinosaur Theme Park. But nooooo, we had to keep the Raptors, everyone gets eaten, and I never get to ride a Triceratops. That is bull****.

(Edit to clarify: I'm saying the fact that I cannot ride a Triceratops is Bull****. I'm not swearing angrily. This is the internet, sarcasm must be specified. Though I am pretty angry about that Triceratops thing.) 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[Dave of Canada]

Reapers: Oh hey, we've got that puppet of ours! He has Shepard, haven't we been looking for him?
Harbinger: Shut up, we're saving him.
Reapers: Oh okay, well... oh look, Shepard's escaping and coming to talk to our puppet. Will we assume direct control now?
Harbinger: No! We're saving him.
Reapers: Fine, though this is getting a little silly.

*a while later*
Reapers: Shepard is stopping our plans around the galaxy and gathering allies, surely we can stop it here! Activate the puppet!
Harbinger: You will listen to me, we must wait!
Reapers: He almost destroyed the Collector Ship! How are we supposed to build our human reaper without it?
Harbinger: With perseverance!
Reapers: Ugh, fine.

*later*
Reapers: Shepard is going on-board one of our own, surely we can do something to stop him! The puppet can help!
Harbinger: *evil stare*
Reapers: *whisper to other reapers* I'm beginning to think he just has romantic feelings for this puppet of his.
Harbinger: I heard that.
Reapers: Well excuse me, Harbinger! Maybe somewhere in your brilliant melted-down-species-hive-mind, you'd be able to tell me the logic of letting everything fall apart!
Harbinger: We wait.

*even later than that*
Reapers: The bastards destroyed the Collectors, destroyed our plan B for the invasion (Human Reaper) and (destroyed/gave away the) base! Now we have to fly over manually!
Harbinger: Don't worry, the puppet is safe.
Reapers: Only because you're not willing to use him, what's the point of keeping him in sleeper mode if we're not going to exploit it?
Harbinger: YOU.WILL.NOT.QUESTION.ME.
Harbinger: *whispers to a picture of TIM* I'm sorry I yelled, my love.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Last Vizard]

jbadm04 wrote...

As said on the one of the first pages: Scientist + ReaperTech = Disaster. "Your civilization is based on.. our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire." BW tells you this and you still decide to keep the base? Well, I wouldnt be whining when this comes to bite you in the ass.

I think the fool is one who thinks that they can follow a different path in what four weeks? what is the timeline here?  even if we had a thousand years till the Reapers show up i'd still keep the base and figure out how to counter the tech that was taken from it.

i'm not para or rene... i'm logic.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reapers: Oh hey, we've got that puppet of ours! He has Shepard, haven't we been looking for him?
Harbinger: Shut up, we're saving him.
Reapers: Oh okay, well... oh look, Shepard's escaping and coming to talk to our puppet. Will he assume direct control now?
Harbinger: No! We're saving him.
Reapers: Fine, though this is getting a little silly.

*a while later*
Reapers: Shepard is stopping our plans around the galaxy and gathering allies, surely we can stop it here! Activate the puppet!
Harbinger: You will listen to me, we must wait!
Reapers: He almost destroyed the Collector Ship! How are we supposed to build our human reaper without it?
Harbinger: With perseverance!
Reapers: Ugh, fine.

*later*
Reapers: Shepard is going on-board one of our own, surely we can do something to stop him! The puppet can help!
Harbinger: *evil stare*
Reapers: *whisper to other reapers* I'm beginning to think he just has romantic feelings for this puppet of his.
Harbinger: I heard that.
Reapers: Well excuse me, Harbinger! Maybe somewhere in your brilliant melted-down-species-hive-mind, you'd be able to tell me the logic of letting everything fall apart!
Harbinger: We wait.

*even later than that*
Reapers: The bastards destroyed the Collectors, destroyed our plan B for the invasion (Human Reaper) and (destroyed/gave away the) base! Now we have to fly over manually!
Harbinger: Don't worry, the puppet is safe.
Reapers: Only because you're not willing to use him, what's the point of keeping him in sleeper mode if we're not going to exploit it?
Harbinger: YOU.WILL.NOT.QUESTION.ME.
Harbinger: *whispers to a picture of TIM* I'm sorry I yelled, my love.

*Jack Harper gets exposed to Reaper tech*

Harbinger: Howdy Jack!  Guess what!  You hate us!  Which makes you least likely person to do *insert evil plan here* at just the right moment.  Now, forget all about this conversation until *insert opportune moment here*.

Jack: NO! Wait, I mean YES!  Wait, what was I talking about again?

You can disagree with me if you want, obviously.  But I think old Jacky boy would make the perfect sleeper agent, since nobody expects him to do anything for the Reapers.  We'll see how it pans out - there's a reason Bioware told us about this background info - it's either to throw us off or tip us off.  

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Last Vizard wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

As said on the one of the first pages: Scientist + ReaperTech = Disaster. "Your civilization is based on.. our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire." BW tells you this and you still decide to keep the base? Well, I wouldnt be whining when this comes to bite you in the ass.

I think the fool is one who thinks that they can follow a different path in what four weeks? what is the timeline here?  even if we had a thousand years till the Reapers show up i'd still keep the base and figure out how to counter the tech that was taken from it.

i'm not para or rene... i'm logic.

Ugh will people stop claiming that "logic" objectively favors one side over the other? It doesn't!

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks at "getting brainwashed by the enemy" camp, or 4 weeks working out and cleaning your guns. Cleaning your guns seems like a better plan.

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks looking at your enemy's tech, or 4 weeks working out and cleaining your guns.  Looking at your enemy's tech seems like a better plan.

Here is the problem: We don't know which of these two things is true, and we have no way of knowing. It's possible that going to the CB will lead us to be stronger. It is equally possible that it will lead us to be weaker. There is no logical choice here - there is only personal preference and hunches.