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[Seboist]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reapers: Oh hey, we've got that puppet of ours! He has Shepard, haven't we been looking for him?
Harbinger: Shut up, we're saving him.
Reapers: Oh okay, well... oh look, Shepard's escaping and coming to talk to our puppet. Will he assume direct control now?
Harbinger: No! We're saving him.
Reapers: Fine, though this is getting a little silly.

*a while later*
Reapers: Shepard is stopping our plans around the galaxy and gathering allies, surely we can stop it here! Activate the puppet!
Harbinger: You will listen to me, we must wait!
Reapers: He almost destroyed the Collector Ship! How are we supposed to build our human reaper without it?
Harbinger: With perseverance!
Reapers: Ugh, fine.

*later*
Reapers: Shepard is going on-board one of our own, surely we can do something to stop him! The puppet can help!
Harbinger: *evil stare*
Reapers: *whisper to other reapers* I'm beginning to think he just has romantic feelings for this puppet of his.
Harbinger: I heard that.
Reapers: Well excuse me, Harbinger! Maybe somewhere in your brilliant melted-down-species-hive-mind, you'd be able to tell me the logic of letting everything fall apart!
Harbinger: We wait.

*even later than that*
Reapers: The bastards destroyed the Collectors, destroyed our plan B for the invasion (Human Reaper) and (destroyed/gave away the) base! Now we have to fly over manually!
Harbinger: Don't worry, the puppet is safe.
Reapers: Only because you're not willing to use him, what's the point of keeping him in sleeper mode if we're not going to exploit it?
Harbinger: YOU.WILL.NOT.QUESTION.ME.
Harbinger: *whispers to a picture of TIM* I'm sorry I yelled, my love.

*Jack Harper gets exposed to Reaper tech*

Harbinger: Howdy Jack!  Guess what!  You hate us!  Which makes you least likely person to do *insert evil plan here* at just the right moment.  Now, forget all about this conversation until *insert opportune moment here*.

Jack: NO! Wait, I mean YES!  Wait, what was I talking about again?

You can disagree with me if you want, obviously.  But I think old Jacky boy would make the perfect sleeper agent, since nobody expects him to do anything for the Reapers.  We'll see how it pans out - there's a reason Bioware told us about this background info - it's either to throw us off or tip us off.  

How would a guy nobody trusts in the ME universe who leads a shady black ops group labeled as "terrorists" and "human xenophobes" be the "perfect sleeper agent" exactly?

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks at "getting brainwashed by the enemy" camp, or 4 weeks working out and cleaning your guns. Cleaning your guns seems like a better plan.

... what guns?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks at "getting brainwashed by the enemy" camp, or 4 weeks working out and cleaning your guns. Cleaning your guns seems like a better plan.

... what guns?

I've listed the dozens of things I think are a worthier use for our time and funding in this thread previously.

Ilos. Railgun that shoots asteroids. Krogan Asteroid bombardment tech. Thanix cannons. Reaper IFF. Citadel. Relays. If you want more info on how I think all of those would yield results, read my earlier posts in this thread.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[Last Vizard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reapers: Oh hey, we've got that puppet of ours! He has Shepard, haven't we been looking for him?
Harbinger: Shut up, we're saving him.
Reapers: Oh okay, well... oh look, Shepard's escaping and coming to talk to our puppet. Will we assume direct control now?
Harbinger: No! We're saving him.
Reapers: Fine, though this is getting a little silly.

*a while later*
Reapers: Shepard is stopping our plans around the galaxy and gathering allies, surely we can stop it here! Activate the puppet!
Harbinger: You will listen to me, we must wait!
Reapers: He almost destroyed the Collector Ship! How are we supposed to build our human reaper without it?
Harbinger: With perseverance!
Reapers: Ugh, fine.

*later*
Reapers: Shepard is going on-board one of our own, surely we can do something to stop him! The puppet can help!
Harbinger: *evil stare*
Reapers: *whisper to other reapers* I'm beginning to think he just has romantic feelings for this puppet of his.
Harbinger: I heard that.
Reapers: Well excuse me, Harbinger! Maybe somewhere in your brilliant melted-down-species-hive-mind, you'd be able to tell me the logic of letting everything fall apart!
Harbinger: We wait.

*even later than that*
Reapers: The bastards destroyed the Collectors, destroyed our plan B for the invasion (Human Reaper) and (destroyed/gave away the) base! Now we have to fly over manually!
Harbinger: Don't worry, the puppet is safe.
Reapers: Only because you're not willing to use him, what's the point of keeping him in sleeper mode if we're not going to exploit it?
Harbinger: YOU.WILL.NOT.QUESTION.ME.
Harbinger: *whispers to a picture of TIM* I'm sorry I yelled, my love.

this is great^

[Almostfaceman]

Seboist wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Reapers: Oh hey, we've got that puppet of ours! He has Shepard, haven't we been looking for him?
Harbinger: Shut up, we're saving him.
Reapers: Oh okay, well... oh look, Shepard's escaping and coming to talk to our puppet. Will he assume direct control now?
Harbinger: No! We're saving him.
Reapers: Fine, though this is getting a little silly.

*a while later*
Reapers: Shepard is stopping our plans around the galaxy and gathering allies, surely we can stop it here! Activate the puppet!
Harbinger: You will listen to me, we must wait!
Reapers: He almost destroyed the Collector Ship! How are we supposed to build our human reaper without it?
Harbinger: With perseverance!
Reapers: Ugh, fine.

*later*
Reapers: Shepard is going on-board one of our own, surely we can do something to stop him! The puppet can help!
Harbinger: *evil stare*
Reapers: *whisper to other reapers* I'm beginning to think he just has romantic feelings for this puppet of his.
Harbinger: I heard that.
Reapers: Well excuse me, Harbinger! Maybe somewhere in your brilliant melted-down-species-hive-mind, you'd be able to tell me the logic of letting everything fall apart!
Harbinger: We wait.

*even later than that*
Reapers: The bastards destroyed the Collectors, destroyed our plan B for the invasion (Human Reaper) and (destroyed/gave away the) base! Now we have to fly over manually!
Harbinger: Don't worry, the puppet is safe.
Reapers: Only because you're not willing to use him, what's the point of keeping him in sleeper mode if we're not going to exploit it?
Harbinger: YOU.WILL.NOT.QUESTION.ME.
Harbinger: *whispers to a picture of TIM* I'm sorry I yelled, my love.

*Jack Harper gets exposed to Reaper tech*

Harbinger: Howdy Jack!  Guess what!  You hate us!  Which makes you least likely person to do *insert evil plan here* at just the right moment.  Now, forget all about this conversation until *insert opportune moment here*.

Jack: NO! Wait, I mean YES!  Wait, what was I talking about again?

You can disagree with me if you want, obviously.  But I think old Jacky boy would make the perfect sleeper agent, since nobody expects him to do anything for the Reapers.  We'll see how it pans out - there's a reason Bioware told us about this background info - it's either to throw us off or tip us off.  

How would a guy nobody trusts in the ME universe who leads a shady black ops group labeled as "terrorists" and "human xenophobes" be the "perfect sleeper agent" exactly?

So, you're saying that TiM is irrelevant and can't affect anything?  Then what would be the point of giving him the Collector base?

I don't know what Bioware is going to do - but I can off the top of my head come up with one scenario:

TiM: So, what's the Alliance planning for X sector?
Cerberus sympathizer in High Places of Alliance: Well, we're planning on shooting 10 million toasters full of bread as soon as the BetaMax indicator lights up on the Recieving Relay indicating Reaper throughput.
TiM: Thanks!  
TiM hangs up the phone.
TiM - hmmm, well we've sythesized this specialized AI for toasters using remains of Sovereign, maybe now is the time to give it to Cerberus Sympathizer...
*Harbinger assumes control*  So, TiM, what's the Alliance planning for X Sector?
TiM: Well, master, them toasters... *continues to tell Harbinger everything, including TiM's plans to give a specialized AI to the Alliance*
Harbinger: Thanks TiM, er, Jacky, er TiM! It's been fun! It's been real!  But it hasn't been real fun!  Now, you won't remember any of this conversation.
*Harbinger releases control*
TiM: Damn these headaches!  Hmm, why am I standing in front of the toilet again?  Anyway, time to give that piece of equipment to him...

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


I don't want to turn this into a Zulu-style quotem pole argument but, ok: What category would you put the long-term sleeper agents mentioned on Ilos into? People who do not act remotely strangely or take any action on the Reaper's behalf until months or years after they are exposed to the Reapers? And how do you assess the risk of those? You seem to be ignoring them entirely in your categorization and risk assessment.

First off, by remembering the nature of indoctrination makes 'long term' different than a conventional sleeper agent cell. Indoctrination not supplanted by cybernetics sees weakening of capabilities, and indoctrination without certain amounts of the interim can see individuals maintain or re-exercise free will. (The reason, for example, that small bits of indoctrination over time don't just add up and convert Shepard.) It's important to remember the limitations of Indoctrination.

The Ilos-mentioned agents were generally refugees. Some were specifically-targetted politicians and whatnot, judging from the codex article. People who were not, as a whole, doing 'enduring' assignments, and were victims of 'smart' indcotrination (and not, say, huskification-type indoctrination systems). You can create tests to detect the difference if you wish: setting available Dragon's Teeth (for dumb indoctrination: you get husks, but those are dealable), or double-blind traps which a smart-indoctrinated seeking extreme harm would fall.


They key to dealing with potential sleeper agents, whether you know they are or not, is to put them into a position where they can't do critical harm if/when/should they turn. If you have a concern that people on the Collector Base might turn into sleeper agents... don't let them be in a position which allows for critical failure. In some respects, this calls for duplication: if the person you're worried about is handling data analysis, you might need to employ redundant data analysts off-site. In some respects, this means assigning them to low-value tasks. If Reaper slave Agent CVN7 goes grazy while moving crates around in a back room... it's hardly the end of the galaxy.



It's not that these are ignored by risk-assessment, but that risk-assessment, considers them and propose plausible mitigators, as opposed to leaving them on their own as stand-free risks.

It should be pretty clear that this isn't the argument I'm making. What I'm arguing is this: if your zookeeper has let the lions, tigers, and bears escape and maul passers-by, is he the one you want to trust with your herd of live Velociraptors? I'd rather kill those Velociraptors, like that one expert on dangerous animals said we should. Then we'd have our goddam dinosaur Theme Park. But nooooo, we had to keep the Raptors, everyone gets eaten, and I never get to ride a Triceratops. That is bull****.

(Edit to clarify: I'm saying the fact that I cannot ride a Triceratops is Bull****. I'm not swearing angrily. This is the internet, sarcasm must be specified. Though I am pretty angry about that Triceratops thing.)

No offense taken: if you ever get to a point you're cussing at me, I'd certainly be more likely to be at fault of serious offense.

It's clear that it's not the argument you're intending to make, but I wanted to point out that it's the argument you are effectively making when you take any category which is only unified due to widely varying causes. No offense is taken, I just think your argument is mistaken because your case studies are too varied.

In this case, the reasons different projects 'failed' (or not) weren't the same: we could just as well argue how a man has had three totalled cars because (a) first time he didn't check his breaks, ( second time he was speeding because he was late to something important, and © his friend crashed the car. Yes, all three times the car was destroyed, but it's not the same as arguing that all three were a distinct pattern on the part of the man.

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ilos. Railgun that shoots asteroids. Krogan Asteroid bombardment tech. Reaper IFF.

Who will make it? Fund it? Research it? Test it? Make sure it works? How will it be able to work within a few weeks? How will they explain it to society? Is it being built for the Reaper threat, something nobody but Cerberus/Anderson and Shepard believes? Make sure it can be created and distributed quickly? Will safety regulations cost too much time for effective research?

And for Illos: Citadel have already researched it and found nothing.
And for Reaper IFF: Nobody would believe it's Reaper tech, it would probably be dismissed. Only people we've seen who replicated it was Cerberus.

Thanix cannons.

We have this regardless of choice, it's not being made by Cerberus. Cerberus researching the base doesn't stop the Thannix cannon from being made and Cerberus can't really make it so Turians and stuff add more of them to their ships.

Citadel. Relays.

Illegal and anybody who does any research into any of these is arrested, nobody would risk being arrested because Shepard is yelling at the top of his lungs for a few weeks "WE NEED TO FIND OUT ABOUT THESE BECAUSE THE REAPERS ARE COMING!".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


Ugh will people stop claiming that "logic" objectively favors one side over the other? It doesn't!

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks at "getting brainwashed by the enemy" camp, or 4 weeks working out and cleaning your guns. Cleaning your guns seems like a better plan.

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks looking at your enemy's tech, or 4 weeks working out and cleaining your guns.  Looking at your enemy's tech seems like a better plan.

Here is the problem: We don't know which of these two things is true, and we have no way of knowing. It's possible that going to the CB will lead us to be stronger. It is equally possible that it will lead us to be weaker. There is no logical choice here - there is only personal preference and hunches.

It's more akin to four weeks of cleaning your guns AND an opportunity to look at your enemy's tech, or just four weeks cleaning your guns.

The only faction to have a mutually-exclusive choice in regards to the Collector Base is Cerberus. And if the salvation of the galaxy depends on the Cerberus fleets, that's pretty poor chances in the first place. For the rest of the galaxy, though, they aren't going to be pouring resources into the base: they'll be working out and cleaning their weapons regardless, with the only add-ons being what Cerberus works out and shares.

So how does that come to an equal possibility?

[Last Vizard]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ok, you have a choice before the war: you can spend 4 weeks at "getting brainwashed by the enemy" camp, or 4 weeks working out and cleaning your guns. Cleaning your guns seems like a better plan.

... what guns?

I've listed the dozens of things I think are a worthier use for our time and funding in this thread previously.

Ilos. Railgun that shoots asteroids. Krogan Asteroid bombardment tech. Thanix cannons. Reaper IFF. Citadel. Relays. If you want more info on how I think all of those would yield results, read my earlier posts in this thread.

Thanix cannons are being fitted to Turian and Human ships in the arms race that is going on after "let them die" happend to the council.  the data in the base shouldn't be that difficult to access.... then build the weapons and engines from that data that is probly protected by some password, just don't build anything that is called REAPER AI and we should be good enough to go.

We might even have similar ideas for defence, such as mass accelerated asteroids when the Reapers pass Jupiter but the base is most peoples boogie man, hidden just out of sight but waiting to strike.  Reapers aren't all knowing gods they are just ME skynet, otherwise they wouldn've come through the citadel two thousand years ago.... however i'm not saying they are to be underestimated but the data in the collector base is too great to throw away and even if they do try and retake the base i'm sure the base can be destroyed by ships or pushed into a black hole before its lost.

[blind-tiger]

RiouHotaru wrote...

So it's less about whether giving the Base to TIM was a good idea so much as it is "Why did you trust him?"

Right, and the answer is he's human.

[Dave of Canada]

Almostfaceman wrote...

So, you're saying that TiM is irrelevant and can't affect anything?

A wanted criminal organization with 100~ operatives (less if you include the events of retribution) that consist mostly of scientists isn't going to do much harm in battle.

Then what would be the point of giving him the Collector base?

How useful they are in battle =/= how useful they are in studying, the Collector Base can offer us a lot of valuable information on how to oppose the Reapers and that's excluding whatever Collector technology they can gather from it.

If they were indocrinated, they'd be less lethal than a handful of Collectors.
Without indocrination, their research and technology upgrades would be  valuable.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Getting a lot of crosspost here and I'm getting tired. Someday I'll make a huge searchable database of all the CB arguments, so I can just copy and past what I wrote before whenever anyone brings up a thing again.

To sum up: 

1. Cerberus has people everywhere in government and the military. I believe that warping or indoctrinating Cerberus risks more than just Cerberus.

2. Whoever you're looking at, whatever numbers you're looking at, it's still a 50/50 chance of brainwash camp vs. learning stuff. There is also the chance that brainwash camp will look like learning stuff, so that everyone will do the thing that the brainwash camp people say. I've gone on about this before. Heads it's brainwash camp, you've hurt the war effort. Tails it isn't, you've helped it. We don't know how much either one will help or hurt, either. It's all guesses and hunches.

3. I believe that we have stuff we can use or do against the Reapers. A lot of base keepers believe we have nothing that will work that we can possibly get ready, the base is our only real hope. This is just a fundamentally different assessment of our tech levels and strategy. We'll see who is right, I guess.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 08:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

1. Cerberus has people everywhere in government and the military.

Arrested by Anderson.

2. Whoever you're looking at, whatever numbers you're looking at, it's still a 50/50 chance of brainwash camp vs. learning stuff. There is also the chance that brainwash camp will look like learning stuff, so that everyone will do the thing that the brainwash camp people say. I've gone on about this before. Heads it's brainwash camp, you've hurt the war effort. Tails it isn't, you've helped it. We don't know how much either one will help or hurt, either. It's all guesses and hunches.

Covered it before.

3. I believe that we have stuff we can use or do against the Reapers.

Like what?

[Almostfaceman]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

So, you're saying that TiM is irrelevant and can't affect anything?

A wanted criminal organization with 100~ operatives (less if you include the events of retribution) that consist mostly of scientists isn't going to do much harm in battle.

Then what would be the point of giving him the Collector base?

How useful they are in battle =/= how useful they are in studying, the Collector Base can offer us a lot of valuable information on how to oppose the Reapers and that's excluding whatever Collector technology they can gather from it.

If they were indocrinated, they'd be less lethal than a handful of Collectors.
Without indocrination, their research and technology upgrades would be  valuable.

My example showed how Cerberus can affect a battle. TiM is covertly in a position of trust with Alliance and Council people who think they know who he is and trust him.  If he's a sleeper agent unknowingly under Reaper control this can really screw things up.

We'll see what happens.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

1. Cerberus has people everywhere in government and the military.

Arrested by Anderson.

I don't remember that happening in-game. As far as I'm aware, the novels may be cannon for a set world, but they aren't cannon for all players (for instance, whether or not the council is alive would affect some of the events in the novels. Also, whether or not Anderson is councilor, etc.) Can you show me in-game where it's said that all of Cerberus's sleepers have been gotten rid of?  Or, failing that, a novel with a female Paragon protagonist where that's the case? Because I would sincerely like to read that novel.

2. Whoever you're looking at, whatever numbers you're looking at, it's still a 50/50 chance of brainwash camp vs. learning stuff. There is also the chance that brainwash camp will look like learning stuff, so that everyone will do the thing that the brainwash camp people say. I've gone on about this before. Heads it's brainwash camp, you've hurt the war effort. Tails it isn't, you've helped it. We don't know how much either one will help or hurt, either. It's all guesses and hunches.

Covered it before.

I haven't seen you, or anyone else, give any sort of plausible rebuttal to this, and I've read every page of this thread.

So far the rebuttals I have seen are this: 

1. But we can limit how far the indoctrination goes!
2. But Cerberus doesn't have enough power to turn the tide of battle!

Is there another rebuttal I've missed seeing? 

[3. I believe that we have stuff we can use or do against the Reapers.

Like what?

I don't think that your rebuttals of any of the things I mentioned remove them from contention. I believe your assumptions about the associated costs or restrictions of exploring those opportunities are fundamentally flawed.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

2. Whoever you're looking at, whatever numbers you're looking at, it's still a 50/50 chance of brainwash camp vs. learning stuff.

Our of curiosity, where did you get that number? 

Especially since, ironically enough, brainwash camp happens regardless of whether you blow up the base or not. Which kindof makes Brainwach Camp a 100% probability regardless of which choice you do... and also 'learning stuff', since the aftermath of Retribution is that the Alliance and TIM and Aria are going to be studying the **** out of the Grayson experiment, and that Grayson's corpse is the cornerstone of the Alliance's anti-Reaper study project.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

2. Whoever you're looking at, whatever numbers you're looking at, it's still a 50/50 chance of brainwash camp vs. learning stuff.

Our of curiosity, where did you get that number? 

Especially since, ironically enough, brainwash camp happens regardless of whether you blow up the base or not.

Sorry, I should have said "As far as we know it's a 50/50 chance." We don't know the actual chance. So assuming it's 50-50 was my way of trying to be fair to both sides.

My entire premise is that we have insufficient information to even know the percentages involved. It could be 99% chance of brainwash camp, 1% chance of learning something. Nobody knows.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, retroactively, we do: there's a 100% chance that there will be a rampant indoctrination experiment in any universe in which Udina was made Councilor.

Vote Anderson! Preserve Cerberus!

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[Last Vizard]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

So, you're saying that TiM is irrelevant and can't affect anything?

A wanted criminal organization with 100~ operatives (less if you include the events of retribution) that consist mostly of scientists isn't going to do much harm in battle.

Then what would be the point of giving him the Collector base?

How useful they are in battle =/= how useful they are in studying, the Collector Base can offer us a lot of valuable information on how to oppose the Reapers and that's excluding whatever Collector technology they can gather from it.

If they were indocrinated, they'd be less lethal than a handful of Collectors.
Without indocrination, their research and technology upgrades would be  valuable.

My example showed how Cerberus can affect a battle. TiM is covertly in a position of trust with Alliance and Council people who think they know who he is and trust him.  If he's a sleeper agent unknowingly under Reaper control this can really screw things up.

We'll see what happens.

Where was TIM during the battle at the citadel? Nazzara could've used the back up and would've won.
couple of years before the battle
Reaper: TIM build ships
TIM: hey science guy use tis collector tech and build a bunch of ships with it.
Science guy: Collector tech... where the hell did- (gun shot)
Time: hey other science guy --(interupted)
Science guy2: YES SIR!

after the battle of the citadel
Harbinger: that was close, if it wasn't for our sleeper agent the cycle might have been broken.
Nazzara: yeah, somone might have died too. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

It's arguments like these that make me really wish they'd had time to finish making their "Secret core of the citadel" area that was originally intended to be where the conduit lead. That way the whole "Well, anyone who was in the citadel could have done X" argument would never come up.

[Almostfaceman]

Last Vizard wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

So, you're saying that TiM is irrelevant and can't affect anything?

A wanted criminal organization with 100~ operatives (less if you include the events of retribution) that consist mostly of scientists isn't going to do much harm in battle.

Then what would be the point of giving him the Collector base?

How useful they are in battle =/= how useful they are in studying, the Collector Base can offer us a lot of valuable information on how to oppose the Reapers and that's excluding whatever Collector technology they can gather from it.

If they were indocrinated, they'd be less lethal than a handful of Collectors.
Without indocrination, their research and technology upgrades would be  valuable.

My example showed how Cerberus can affect a battle. TiM is covertly in a position of trust with Alliance and Council people who think they know who he is and trust him.  If he's a sleeper agent unknowingly under Reaper control this can really screw things up.

We'll see what happens.

Where was TIM during the battle at the citadel? Nazzara could've used the back up and would've won.
couple of years before the battle
Reaper: TIM build ships
TIM: hey science guy use tis collector tech and build a bunch of ships with it.
Science guy: Collector tech... where the hell did- (gun shot)
Time: hey other science guy --(interupted)
Science guy2: YES SIR!

after the battle of the citadel
Harbinger: that was close, if it wasn't for our sleeper agent the cycle might have been broken.
Nazzara: yeah, somone might have died too. 

If you think this is a reason why TiM can't be a sleeper agent, that's fine.  I still think he is, for the reason's I've stated before.  The parameters for his use were not met at that time (possibly) and the Reapers decided or will decide to use him for another purpose.

Why is Bioware showing us Jack (TiM) being exposed to Reaper tech in Evolution?  One can only guess at this point.  We'll see what happens.

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's arguments like these that make me really wish they'd had time to finish making their "Secret core of the citadel" area that was originally intended to be where the conduit lead. That way the whole "Well, anyone who was in the citadel could have done X" argument would never come up.

Can't say I remember this tidbit. Care to expand?

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's arguments like these that make me really wish they'd had time to finish making their "Secret core of the citadel" area that was originally intended to be where the conduit lead. That way the whole "Well, anyone who was in the citadel could have done X" argument would never come up.

But then nobody would have had that cool data file that Vigil gives us to screw up Sovereign taking over the Citadel. 

[atheelogos]

Jayman1337 wrote...

I'm pretty sure they'll come up with a good enough reason to make it so it benefits you in some way.

Would seem odd if it didn't balance out and made it a harder/worse experience.

this

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

It's arguments like these that make me really wish they'd had time to finish making their "Secret core of the citadel" area that was originally intended to be where the conduit lead. That way the whole "Well, anyone who was in the citadel could have done X" argument would never come up.

Can't say I remember this tidbit. Care to expand?

There are still scraps of references to this in game. The idea was that the Protheans from Ilos went into the core of the citadel where the Keepers live and messed with something there, in order to keep them from recieving transmissions. That's where all sorts of cool controlly bits are.

But then you go through the conduit and you're just in that lobby where you can just... you know... go anytime you want to, and it's like WTF? (Or at least, I was very confused.)  But then Saren's there and he's typing something, so you just say "oh well" and go with it.

So the theory is that, originally, you were supposed to go to a new area of the Citadel after the Conduit. But for some reason this didn't work out (ran out of time, they realized it didn't work narratively for some reason, who knows?), so they just put you in the place where you met with the council.