864 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't remember that happening in-game. As far as I'm aware, the novels may be cannon for a set world, but they aren't cannon for all players (for instance, whether or not the council is alive would affect some of the events in the novels. Also, whether or not Anderson is councilor, etc.) Can you show me in-game where it's said that all of Cerberus's sleepers have been gotten rid of?  Or, failing that, a novel with a female Paragon protagonist where that's the case? Because I would sincerely like to read that novel.

Dismissing it because it opposes your point doesn't stop it from happening.

I haven't seen you, or anyone else, give any sort of plausible rebuttal to this, and I've read every page of this thread.

So far the rebuttals I have seen are this: 

1. But we can limit how far the indoctrination goes!
2. But Cerberus doesn't have enough power to turn the tide of battle!

Is there another rebuttal I've missed seeing?

I've answered it a week or so ago when you brought it up but you ignored my post to argue with somebody else.

I don't think that your rebuttals of any of the things I mentioned remove them from contention. I believe your assumptions about the associated costs or restrictions of exploring those opportunities are fundamentally flawed.

Right, it's flawed because there's no way for you to answer it. Right?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't remember that happening in-game. As far as I'm aware, the novels may be cannon for a set world, but they aren't cannon for all players (for instance, whether or not the council is alive would affect some of the events in the novels. Also, whether or not Anderson is councilor, etc.) Can you show me in-game where it's said that all of Cerberus's sleepers have been gotten rid of?  Or, failing that, a novel with a female Paragon protagonist where that's the case? Because I would sincerely like to read that novel.

Dismissing it because it opposes your point doesn't stop it from happening.

So you're saying the only valid universe is the one that perfectly reflects what happens in the novels? EG: a male Soldier Shepard? If that's your premise, then sure: for all worlds in which Shepard is male, whoeveriscouncilor in the novels is councilor, and all the events proceed along a straight line with no choice or player influence, then what you posit is true. That's not the world I'm talking about. I'm talking about the game world.

Give me a summary of what your rebuttal is, or a page number? I at least gave you a one line summary of my stuff, so you'd have terms to search for.

And finally: I think there's no evidence to suggest we don't have the time or money to make the modest research leaps required to get to a railgun that shoots asteroids. We have railguns. Krogans have used asteroids to bombard things. Kissy kissy sweet little tech babies.

We also don't have any reason to believe proper attention was paid to Ilos. Basically all we know is that they sent some guy there, that guy came back and said "holo isn't working anymore."

Also, I think CERBERUS should spend its money working on the Reaper IFF rather than the CB. The Reaper IFF has already sprung its included trap. Until we have reverse engineered that baby, we have more important things than the CB. Turining all the Relays from "pink" to "yellow" so that only our ships can get through? Priceless.

[Dave of Canada]

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

So you're saying the only valid universe is the one that perfectly reflects what happens in the novels? EG: a male Soldier Shepard?[/quote]

They never say Shepard's class, they never say Shepard's gender. You can self-insert regardless of Shepard, so... yeah, you're dismissing.

[quote]If that's your premise, then sure: for all worlds in which Shepard is male[/quote]

Shepard isn't male in the novels.

[quote]whoeveriscouncilor in the novels is councilor[/quote]

Udina is Councilor but it's suggested Anderson stepped down from Councilor so it works both ways.

[quote]and all the events proceed along a straight line with no choice or player influence[/quote]

The events in the novel happen regardless of what Shepard did and set up for the events before the games.

[quote]That's not the world I'm talking about. I'm talking about the game world.[/quote]

And you're dismissing everything that happens in the novels because it doesn't support your point and using flawed knowledge to support it.

[quote]Give me a summary of what your rebuttal is, or a page number? I at least gave you a one line summary of my stuff, so you'd have terms to search for.[/quote]

16-20, all I know.

[quote]And finally: I think there's no evidence to suggest we don't have the time or money to make the modest research leaps required to get to a railgun that shoots asteroids.[/quote]

We've got a few weeks and nobody is actively researching it, unless you fully expect this to be invented out of thin air with nobody investing in it?

Like I said, who's going to research it?
Who is funding it?
Who is going to manufacture it?
What is it's purpose?
How will it be tested?
How will it be distributed within a few weeks?
Will there be ethics involved, if so how long will it take to get around these ethics?

We have the money for it, sure. If somebody is going to spend it on this research, though who will do it? You can't expect random millionaire to go "Umm... I think I want a railgun that shoots asteroids". And we don't have the time for it, the Reapers are pretty much on our doorstep already if you consider the events of arrival.

[quote]Krogans have used asteroids to bombard things.[/quote]

And Krogans aren't in great shape at the moment to do anything, least of all prepare for a war with beings that nobody believes.

[quote]We also don't have any reason to believe proper attention was paid to Ilos. Basically all we know is that they sent some guy there, that guy came back and said "holo isn't working anymore.[/quote]

We also don't have any reason to believe that they didn't.

[quote]Also, I think CERBERUS should spend its money working on the Reaper IFF rather than the CB. Until we have reverse engineered that baby[/quote]

Already done, Cerberus have ships with the Reaper IFF installed in it immediately after the Suicide Mission. And guess what, this is ingame!

[quote]we have more important things than the CB.[/quote]

Reaper IFFs reverse engineered is done, so can we focus on the Collector Base now?

[quote]Turining all the Relays from "pink" to "yellow" so that only our ships can get through? Priceless.
[/quote]

Reapers... won't be able to use their own IFFs? What?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[jbadm04]

Last Vizard wrote...

I think the fool is one who thinks that they can follow a different path in what four weeks? what is the timeline here?  even if we had a thousand years till the Reapers show up i'd still keep the base and figure out how to counter the tech that was taken from it.

i'm not para or rene... i'm logic.

Wrote about this, but then deleted it to see if someone jumps onto it . Developing a new way is just not going to kick in, in a couple of months. But will using the reaper tech do? This complete Collector Base reads "backfire"! Im not para or rene either, but rather go down in glory then use reaper tech.

[Dave of Canada]

jbadm04 wrote...

But will using the reaper tech do?

Considering we've used Reaper tech to stop the Reapers in ME1 and ME2, I'm thinking yes.

edit:

but rather go down in glory then use reaper tech.

How about every other species? You'd rather kill all of them because of how you personally feel?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Evercrow]

As Paragon Shep on my very first playthrough I spared the base,believing it would help us with tech against Reaper's "impenetrable shields".Then I immediatlly and automatically insult TIM (or at least make a "bite me" pose, instead of imitating joy and cooperation), and got scorned by my whole crew. If not for those designer-placed reactions, the whole "base?" question is pretty grey area. It all depends on further involvement of Shepard in base research.

I don't understand why only Cerberus can have that base. I mean, the first thing I would do is go to Council(Anderson) and say -" there is a whole base full of evidence connecting Reapers to Collectors.Send some scout ships, if you don't believe me.".And then give them relay IFF tech. If Cerberus can fly there, I'm sure the whole federation of advanced races could think something out.

Also, I have no doubt that there will be some indoctrination effect , but what about work shifts and regular medical control? It's not like it is first time encountering indoctrination, and we need to research it sooner or later in face of incoming invasion.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...
{snip}

I'll cop to no knowledge whatsoever about the novels. If you want to base your decisions on out-of-character knowledge, that's fine with me. I'm basing my explanation of Shepard's reasoning on what she knows, based on her own experience, in game at the time the decision is made.

I'm saying that we shouldn't just copy and use the Reaper IFF. What I'm suggesting hasn't been done yet. I'm saying we find out how the Reaper IFF works, and also how the Omega 4 relay was set to recognize it. Then we make a different IFF, one with a different code, and we set all mass relays in the galaxy to recognize the new one that we made.

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

As for your question of funding... well Cerberus is gonna put their money somewhere. I'd prefer it not be the CB. If the CB research is gonna get funded, then there's money somewhere, and that money could be used to research something else. 

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[Evercrow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

Umm, I don't think it will work. I mean, even assuming Reapers don't know how to change options on the things they created themselves, they could just invade galaxy the old-fashioned way. And destroy any mass relays they encounter to avoid guerilla fights. So the IFF method will only slow the invasion. Considerably though.

But it will take time  researching the relays tech.It all depends how far Reapers are at the moment: weeks or months away, and how good Shepard can persuade(it not easy to start such research by Council and Alliance against a non-evident threat).

[Dave of Canada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If you want to base your decisions on out-of-character knowledge, that's fine with me. I'm basing my explanation of Shepard's reasoning on what she knows, based on her own experience, in game at the time the decision is made.

And you entered an argument about the GI/Comic Cerberus information, which is using metagame knowledge. So I'm sorry for using the novel against other metagame knowledge?

I'm saying that we shouldn't just copy and use the Reaper IFF. What I'm suggesting hasn't been done yet. I'm saying we find out how the Reaper IFF works, and also how the Omega 4 relay was set to recognize it. Then we make a different IFF, one with a different code, and we set all mass relays in the galaxy to recognize the new one that we made.

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

So, in order to do this:
Researchers have to break the law and investigate the Mass Relays, and this can't be illegal research because you'd have to hand out it's results to everybody throughout the galaxy, and find out how to manipulate them with no previous knowledge or research to base it on. And what does it do against the Reaper fleet except delay them for a week?

Should the researchers be from Cerberus, their results will not be taken seriously and will not be applied galaxy wide and they'd be arrested / killed.

Should the researchers be from the Citadel, you'd have to convince them that the Reapers are actually a threat while being a fugitive for them to openly support the project.

Your scenario could maybe work if the Citadel Council approved of it, assuming they'd be able to get it done and spread it through the galaxy within weeks, yet they'd never do it. What are the chances they'll break their own laws because the "Reapers" (turian councilor) are coming? 

And to play the "what if" game that you love:
What if the Reapers can suddenly set the relays back to default? Suddenly nobody can use the Relays anymore!

As for your question of funding... well Cerberus is gonna put their money somewhere.

Cerberus openly funding a Citadel Council project (if we're talking about the galaxy-wide application)?

I'd prefer it not be the CB. If the CB research is gonna get funded, then there's money somewhere, and that money could be used to research something else. 

That money is being used to research the Collector Base, blown up or not.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 avril 2011 - 10:24 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If you want to base your decisions on out-of-character knowledge, that's fine with me. I'm basing my explanation of Shepard's reasoning on what she knows, based on her own experience, in game at the time the decision is made.

And you entered an argument about the GI/Comic Cerberus information, which is using metagame knowledge. So I'm sorry for using the novel against other metagame knowledge?

I got the impression that Cerberus had people everywhere in game, from Codex entries and dossier information as well as the fact that they got Normandy blueprints and all that. Not based on any non-in-game information. Believe me - I don't know anything I haven't learned from the games.

I also think that a blown-up collector base offers less risk without substantially reduced reward. The difference between studying chunks of Sovereign or studying a single IFF vs. living inside a derelict reaper.

That said, we'll see if we get any new tech to fight the Reapers in ME3 that isn't CB based. I bet we do. I wish I had a good thing to wager...

[Evercrow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, we'll see if we get any new tech to fight the Reapers in ME3 that isn't CB based. I bet we do. I wish I had a good thing to wager...

Well, i think geth could be good source of plot twisting tech. Or at least a whole fleet with weapons that could pierce Reapers defences.

[Last Vizard]

Evercrow wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

Umm, I don't think it will work. I mean, even assuming Reapers don't know how to change options on the things they created themselves, they could just invade galaxy the old-fashioned way. And destroy any mass relays they encounter to avoid guerilla fights. So the IFF method will only slow the invasion. Considerably though.

But it will take time  researching the relays tech.It all depends how far Reapers are at the moment: weeks or months away, and how good Shepard can persuade(it not easy to start such research by Council and Alliance against a non-evident threat).

what i don't understand is how the Reapers are going to get here without the citadel? did noone tell Nazzara about the other option?

[jbadm04]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How about every other species? You'd rather kill all of them because of how you personally feel?

Sure, you wouldnt? Jokes aside, I know we used reaper tech so far, and without it would be a nuisance to achieve anything. It is also kind of "ok" using some tech (reverse engineering) like the thanix cannon (I see this is quite double edged, I cant deny reaper tech, but use it too). But having this collector base floating in the backyard reads just "very bad idea" all over it.

[Last Vizard]

jbadm04 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

How about every other species? You'd rather kill all of them because of how you personally feel?

Sure, you wouldnt? Jokes aside, I know we used reaper tech so far, and without it would be a nuisance to achieve anything. It is also kind of "ok" using some tech (reverse engineering) like the thanix cannon (I see this is quite double edged, I cant deny reaper tech, but use it too). But having this collector base floating in the backyard reads just "very bad idea" all over it.

why can't a system be put in place for the collector bases destruction if something goes wrong? i'll just have my goddamn cake and eat it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Last Vizard wrote...

Evercrow wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

Umm, I don't think it will work. I mean, even assuming Reapers don't know how to change options on the things they created themselves, they could just invade galaxy the old-fashioned way. And destroy any mass relays they encounter to avoid guerilla fights. So the IFF method will only slow the invasion. Considerably though.

But it will take time  researching the relays tech.It all depends how far Reapers are at the moment: weeks or months away, and how good Shepard can persuade(it not easy to start such research by Council and Alliance against a non-evident threat).

what i don't understand is how the Reapers are going to get here without the citadel? did noone tell Nazzara about the other option?

See, whenever anyone's going on and on about how impossible it is to beat the Reapers with our current tech level, I need to bring this up:

The Reapers want to use the Citadel because it gives them the ability to turn the relays on and off (or set them all to pink,) to surprise the primary navy of the dominant species, to get intelligence as to all their remaining weaponry, to nuke the government so that resistance is unorganized, and to basically have access to all the knowledge and records of every sentient race in the galaxy.

Every battle against the Reapers in the past has been fought with them having this advantage. This is not true this time. They also don't have an army of Geth like Sovereign had (I hope). It was always possible for them to just fly straight in from Darkspace, they just give up a huge military, strategic, and intelligence advantage to do so.

So yeah, Sovereign knew that they could just fly in. But doing so is dangerous and stupid, if it's remotely possible to take the Citadel back first. At this point (and I would argue, as soon as Sovereign was killed) they realize that they're unlikely to be able to do so, so they're hoofing it. He knew it was possible, but he also knew his people would be much, much weaker if they can't use the Citadel to cripple society.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Last Vizard wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

How about every other species? You'd rather kill all of them because of how you personally feel?

Sure, you wouldnt? Jokes aside, I know we used reaper tech so far, and without it would be a nuisance to achieve anything. It is also kind of "ok" using some tech (reverse engineering) like the thanix cannon (I see this is quite double edged, I cant deny reaper tech, but use it too). But having this collector base floating in the backyard reads just "very bad idea" all over it.

why can't a system be put in place for the collector bases destruction if something goes wrong? i'll just have my goddamn cake and eat it.

See, you say it there: "why can't a system be put into place." Passive voice. Who is doing it? 

TIM is in charge. We have no control over what safety procedures he implements, or what he uses the tech for. We have no control over whether or not he dumps truckloads of human slaves into goo vats to try to make a new, control-able Reaper.

If Mordin were running this thing, I might (might) be able to concede that we can do this safely. But my best scientist spacebro isn't running this shebang, an organization with a history of not taking sufficient precautions and ignoring the bounds of ethics is. So Shepard has no control over how safe it is or how it is used.

[Evercrow]

And like i said, why is it necessary that only Cerberus gain acess to Collector's base? It's not like TIM can hide it somewhere, and Shepard got the IFF to get there.Why not give it to the Council and ask to research that base exercising caution?Or at least install the self-destruct switch

[jbadm04]

Last Vizard wrote...

why can't a system be put in place for the collector bases destruction if something goes wrong? i'll just have my goddamn cake and eat it.

Because, by the time you realize something went wrong it is already too late to do something about it. A remote system wont help you, just my opinion here.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Evercrow wrote...

And like i said, why is it necessary that only Cerberus gain acess to Collector's base? It's not like TIM can hide it somewhere, and Shepard got the IFF to get there.Why not give it to the Council and ask to research that base exercising caution?Or at least install the self-destruct switch

Ah yes, "Collector Base," we have dismissed that claim.

[Evercrow]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


Ah yes, "Collector Base," we have dismissed that claim.

The turian ass isn't alone on the council. Anderson could at least force them to send scout ships through the relay to look at the evidence.

[AlexXIV]

It is hinted that Cerberus is actually a sort of 'black ops' of the Alliance. They co-developed the original Normandy, and are probably funded, among other sources, by Alliance military. I think there are quite a bunch of powerful people in the Alliance who want to see humanity as #1 in the galaxy. And that's what the base is for. And that's why my Shep destroys it.

[Elite Midget]

Nice try Dave but you will have better luck speaking to a rock. At least a rock wont argue against what Bioware has already established.

Don't hold your breath on getting the rest of your post addressed. That individual has a habit of only picking at parts they want to respond to and ignoreing the rest as if they didn't exist.

[Arijharn]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
1. Cerberus has people everywhere in government and the military. I believe that warping or indoctrinating Cerberus risks more than just Cerberus.

Imo, this can't be true do to the distributed nature of Cerberus. It's stated that no Cerberus operative can recognize another if they're from different cells due to the fact that if one cell is arrested, they can't point the finger at others.

I guess then that you're argument could be that it's TIM himself who's the one indoctrinated, but in that sort of argument Shephard could be as well given that our hero has much more regular contact with those devices and that TIM was only exposed once for a very short period of time.

It's also incredibly unlikely that the Command of Cerberus would become indoctrinated since why would the command structure of Cerberus personally visit the Collector Base?

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
3. I believe that we have stuff we can use or do against the Reapers. A lot of base keepers believe we have nothing that will work that we can possibly get ready, the base is our only real hope. This is just a fundamentally different assessment of our tech levels and strategy. We'll see who is right, I guess.

I don't think the base is our only hope, I think it's just prudent to hedge your bets and try to scheme as many factors as possible in order to net the result we need. If that means an alliance with the Geth, go for it, if that means an alliance with the Rachni, then go for it, if I need the political goodwill of the original Council to smooth things over for the other species, then go for it. If I need a much needed boost to our industrial capacity via the Collector Base (if that's one of the benefits of course), then go for it. The Collector Base will have useful data, that's beyond doubt really, but it may or may not be as useful as we hope or fear. By studying technology we will be able to generate understanding of it, which may mean that we'll be able to duplicate that technology without being limited to the construction methods of before (we can do that now, we can build Thanix weapons without organic metal components etc)

All of this is easier than say: "Right, well, lets explore completely new technological options." We can't just decide to not use the Mass Relay network and still expect to be able to get between star systems quickly, because that research just wouldn't be possible (and mass deployable) within the months between the end of Arrival and ME3. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Arijharn]

Evercrow wrote...

And like i said, why is it necessary that only Cerberus gain acess to Collector's base? It's not like TIM can hide it somewhere, and Shepard got the IFF to get there.Why not give it to the Council and ask to research that base exercising caution?Or at least install the self-destruct switch

I always figured that no one else could gain access to it because it was in a political minefield; aka; the Terminus Systems. For the same reason that keeps the Council from going in there at other times except from some minor reconnisance type missions (such as Shephard's SR-1 Normandy geth hunting activities) and 'independent' scientific expeditions.

Also consider that Omega is essentially the 'heart' of the Terminus (much like the Citadel is the 'heart' of Citadel Space) which probably means that the O4 is watched like a hawk, because even Alliance observers watch it from the safety of their own bases (where ever they may be), because you can hear news reports stating that recent evidence suggests that the O4 relay was recently used if you happen to go to I think either Illium or the Citadel post-SM.

If any of those are true, then implications could be great. You couldn't even have a delegation negotiate with Aria because a) She's not recognized 'internationally,' it's the same as why Sidonus couldn't apparently be extradited to Omega after he confessed to killing people after walking into a C-Sec precinct. Even if you could, I would imagine that Aria would become obsessed with trying to find out why the Council wants access to the O4, especially since apparently you never used to be able to use it (it was supposed to go to Shangri-La amongst other things remember?)