864 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Like I've said before, we're all just making guestimates based on factors we can't know. Certain people think certain things were implied more heavily, etc. I think that it's implied everywhere in Mass Effect that Collector and Reaper tech have a significant chance of causing anyone who uses them too extensively to become monsters. You didn't come to this conclusion. It's fine, different minds pick out different pices of information as important, when reading a book or consuming media.

But let me explain my thinking one last time, in a new format. Imagine you have this conversation with Mordin. In this scenario, rather than having 20 seconds to decide whether or not to blow up the base, you have 20 days - enough time for Mordin to run some simulations (these simulations are run from outside the Omega 4 relay, before the IFF is activated).

"Ok, Shepard. Base contains collector tech - based on past experiences with collectors, previous advances from collector tech, current galactic scientific forecasts, collector base increases chance of victory over reapers by five percent." 

"Ok. Um... what's the baseline, there?" 

"Baseline: twenty percent. Collector tech infusion raises it to twenty-five"

"OK."

"Sidenote: did sociological study based on stated Reaper goals, heretic geth development, Krogan uplift fallout... troubling implications."

"What did you find?"

"Keeping collector base increases humanity's likelihood of becoming amoral warlike race significantly. In ten percent of simulations, humans make a new reaper within a century. Forty percent if timeline is extended to a millenium. Troubling. Other, non-Reaper-creation corruption possible too, of course. In general, increases Humanity's chance of becoming a danger to galactic life by fifty percent." 

"I hate to ask this but... from what baseline?" 

"Current chances, 20%. Less than Krogans, Turians. Significantly higher than Salarians and Asari, with Hanar providing theoretical low point." 

"So let me get this straight - we'll trade a 5% increase in our chances of beating the reapers for a 50% chance of becoming a monster race who wipes out all of galactic life ourselves?'

"A bit of an oversimplifcation, but yes."

"You're not making this any easier, Mordin."

"My apologies, Commander."

+1

[Arijharn]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Me personally, I don't know the creepy bastard well enough to give him my Timex watch let alone Collector Tech.  I have no idea what the unaccountable ruthless recluse will do with the place. This makes him a Wildcard.  I don't want to be dealing with both the Reapers and a Wildcard. If I could give the technology to the Alliance, Citadel, Quarians, Krogans, etc. all at the same time I'd keep the base probably.

You can rely on him acting against the Reapers given the fact that Reapers affect his plans just as much as they affect everyone elses. If you place the threat that TIM represents equal to or greater than the Reapers then I'm sorry, but your rationale is wrong because there has been nothing to suggest that TIM and Cerberus are approaching even a 10th of the scale that the Reapers represent. That's not to dismiss that TIM and Cerberus can't be a threat, just that they wouldn't be a threat before or during the Reaper invasion.

And I'm talking macro here of course, as we know Cerberus is going to be gunning after Shephard for some (hopefully not corny) reason, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the worth that Cerberus can provide to the war effort (including yes, with the support of the other species, because Cerberus sure as hell wouldn't be able to wage an effective war against the Reapers by themselves).

I feel the need to stress one point yet again though; the Reapers threaten Cerberus and it's existence just as much as it threatens the existence of everyone else -- therefore you can trust Cerberus at least in this alliance of convenience.

[Arijharn]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Incidentally, I say again--Cerberus hunting for Shepard and Cerberus using the Collector Base against the Reapers are two different issues. Cerberus turning on Shepard doesn't automatically mean Cerberus isn't fighting the Reapers anymore. That said, TIM very clearly voices the intention of using the Base for more than just stopping the Reapers, so yes, it's a rather bad idea. Unless you endorse Cerberus, in which case, shame on you, and it's still a bad idea.

I want to quote this before it gets lost in the sea of posts. I think it's very much true that Cerberus may want to deploy that edge against other species in some capacity post-Reaper invasion. However, I think the nature of Cerberus means that they are inherently easier to deal with otherwise.

Personally though, I think Cerberus will wield increased influence in a political way more than enabling the Alliance to use force. In other words; I think that the Alliance will wield it's power much like a superpowers.

[Almostfaceman]

Arijharn wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Me personally, I don't know the creepy bastard well enough to give him my Timex watch let alone Collector Tech.  I have no idea what the unaccountable ruthless recluse will do with the place. This makes him a Wildcard.  I don't want to be dealing with both the Reapers and a Wildcard. If I could give the technology to the Alliance, Citadel, Quarians, Krogans, etc. all at the same time I'd keep the base probably.

You can rely on him acting against the Reapers given the fact that Reapers affect his plans just as much as they affect everyone elses. If you place the threat that TIM represents equal to or greater than the Reapers then I'm sorry, but your rationale is wrong because there has been nothing to suggest that TIM and Cerberus are approaching even a 10th of the scale that the Reapers represent. That's not to dismiss that TIM and Cerberus can't be a threat, just that they wouldn't be a threat before or during the Reaper invasion.

And I'm talking macro here of course, as we know Cerberus is going to be gunning after Shephard for some (hopefully not corny) reason, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the worth that Cerberus can provide to the war effort (including yes, with the support of the other species, because Cerberus sure as hell wouldn't be able to wage an effective war against the Reapers by themselves).

I feel the need to stress one point yet again though; the Reapers threaten Cerberus and it's existence just as much as it threatens the existence of everyone else -- therefore you can trust Cerberus at least in this alliance of convenience.

Cerberus has already had opportunties to help and coordinate with the war effort and have not exhibited the willingness to contribute - as I have pointed out before.  TiM prefers to operate as a force unaccountable to anyone and separate from everyone.  I as Shepard don't know the man.  I cannot co-strategize with him.  I cannot vet his strategies.  For all I know his methods may be as ultimately as Daffy Duck as a certain German Leader's.  I don't know anything about the man, he won't take me into his confidence.  If he's not capable of that fundamental in a war for our very survival, if he's still playing these TiM power-trip games, I'm not handing him the base.  If he can't play with others in this war, he may end up doing things that work at cross-purpose with some other strategy and that could cost us the war.

I would have given TiM the Collector Base if he had shown me he is going to work together with the rest of the species already teamed up.  Every Citadel race is "teamed up".  Once I prove the Reaper threat to the Council, those forces can be brought to bear.  My Shep also sees potential for working together with the Krogan, since I'm friends with Wrex.  He also sees the potential to work together with the Quarians, since he's friends with Tali and all of them in past conversation seem to be willing to fight the Reapers with the Citadel.  Heck, even the Geth have shown a willingness to work together now with the Quarians (Legion and Tali) and it's a possibility to bring them into the fold for the greater good.

But TiM.  He likes to remain an enigma.  All I know about him is that:
a) he wants to be in charge
he'll acquire Reaper Tech and instead of using it to point out to the council that Reapers exist he makes an AI of it so he can get his hands on the Collector Base.
c) he'll lie to anyone and sacrifice anyone as he decides - he holds his own council and trusts no one.
d) when there's been opportunities to bring in the Alliance to "help" he won't do it.

If he can't understand how important it is to coordinate and work together, if he wants to be Man Hidden In Cave on Power Trip - no base for him. He's a Wildcard.  I don't want to simultaneously be fighting him and the Reapers.

Edit: I wrote all this and didn't even consider the Derelict Reaper.  I mean, seriously this goes even further to prove my point about this guy.  TiM could have told the Alliance and Council about the Derelict Reaper when Cerberus discovered it - a huge proof that the Reapers exist - and everyone could have been working together to prepare for war.  But noooooo, again, TiM demonstrates he can't play well with others, he keeps the thing for himself, and it ultimately gets destroyed before Shep can show it to anyone.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 18 avril 2011 - 02:12 .

[Valmarn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Since it's been revealed that we'll be on the run from Cerberus in Mass Effect 3, it's fair to say that the base will not improve our chances of defeating the Reapers, at all.

How in the least are the two mutually incompatible?

It's not complicated.

If we saved the base, who is in possession of it?

Cerberus.

Who will have scientists and armed personnel at the base?

Cerberus.

Who will be too busy rallying the various races to battle the Reapers to bother dicking with the Collector base?

Shepard.

This site needs a good eye roll smilie, since someone doesn't have a good understanding of 'mutually exclusive.

Well, you must be refering to someone else, since I have a firm grasp of the concept of mutual exclusivity. You must have misread my post. Allow me to clarify:

Cerberus will have possession of the Collector base. For reasons yet to be revealed, Cerberus is also going to be in pursuit of Shepard. Taking that into consideration, unless Shepard and Cerberus are able to come to some sort of agreement, it's highly unlikely that Shepard and his/her team will be able to directly benefit from whatever secrets are discovered in the Collector base. That is, unless whatever is discovered is little more than the revelation of a weakness, and not some new device that Shepard would otherwise get to use on the Reapers.

Do you honestly think that BioWare will allow our choice in saving/destroying the Collector base to have such a major affect on the way the story unfolds in Mass Effect 3?

Story? Yes. Gameplay? No. More gameplay affect on ME3 than the Council question had on the gameplay of 2? Easily.

lol...my bad. The storyline will certainly be affected, I agree. It was gameplay that I had in mind.

[ExtremeOne]

Valmarn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Since it's been revealed that we'll be on the run from Cerberus in Mass Effect 3, it's fair to say that the base will not improve our chances of defeating the Reapers, at all.

How in the least are the two mutually incompatible?

It's not complicated.

If we saved the base, who is in possession of it?

Cerberus.

Who will have scientists and armed personnel at the base?

Cerberus.

Who will be too busy rallying the various races to battle the Reapers to bother dicking with the Collector base?

Shepard.

This site needs a good eye roll smilie, since someone doesn't have a good understanding of 'mutually exclusive.

Well, you must be refering to someone else, since I have a firm grasp of the concept of mutual exclusivity. You must have misread my post. Allow me to clarify:

Cerberus will have possession of the Collector base. For reasons yet to be revealed, Cerberus is also going to be in pursuit of Shepard. Taking that into consideration, unless Shepard and Cerberus are able to come to some sort of agreement, it's highly unlikely that Shepard and his/her team will be able to directly benefit from whatever secrets are discovered in the Collector base. That is, unless whatever is discovered is little more than the revelation of a weakness, and not some new device that Shepard would otherwise get to use on the Reapers.

Do you honestly think that BioWare will allow our choice in saving/destroying the Collector base to have such a major affect on the way the story unfolds in Mass Effect 3?

Story? Yes. Gameplay? No. More gameplay affect on ME3 than the Council question had on the gameplay of 2? Easily.

lol...my bad. The storyline will certainly be affected, I agree. It was gameplay that I had in mind.

   


I want them to explain why My choice at the end of 2 does not matter 

[Lvl20DM]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I want them to explain why My choice at the end of 2 does not matter 

It likely will matter, just not in a way we were expecting.

[Arijharn]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Cerberus has already had opportunties to help and coordinate with the war effort and have not exhibited the willingness to contribute - as I have pointed out before.  TiM prefers to operate as a force unaccountable to anyone and separate from everyone.  I as Shepard don't know the man.  I cannot co-strategize with him.  I cannot vet his strategies.  For all I know his methods may be as ultimately as Daffy Duck as a certain German Leader's.  I don't know anything about the man, he won't take me into his confidence.  If he's not capable of that fundamental in a war for our very survival, if he's still playing these TiM power-trip games, I'm not handing him the base.  If he can't play with others in this war, he may end up doing things that work at cross-purpose with some other strategy and that could cost us the war.

I would have given TiM the Collector Base if he had shown me he is going to work together with the rest of the species already teamed up.  Every Citadel race is "teamed up".  Once I prove the Reaper threat to the Council, those forces can be brought to bear.  My Shep also sees potential for working together with the Krogan, since I'm friends with Wrex.  He also sees the potential to work together with the Quarians, since he's friends with Tali and all of them in past conversation seem to be willing to fight the Reapers with the Citadel.  Heck, even the Geth have shown a willingness to work together now with the Quarians (Legion and Tali) and it's a possibility to bring them into the fold for the greater good.

But TiM.  He likes to remain an enigma.  All I know about him is that:
a) he wants to be in charge
he'll acquire Reaper Tech and instead of using it to point out to the council that Reapers exist he makes an AI of it so he can get his hands on the Collector Base.
c) he'll lie to anyone and sacrifice anyone as he decides - he holds his own council and trusts no one.
d) when there's been opportunities to bring in the Alliance to "help" he won't do it.

If he can't understand how important it is to coordinate and work together, if he wants to be Man Hidden In Cave on Power Trip - no base for him. He's a Wildcard.  I don't want to simultaneously be fighting him and the Reapers.

Edit: I wrote all this and didn't even consider the Derelict Reaper.  I mean, seriously this goes even further to prove my point about this guy.  TiM could have told the Alliance and Council about the Derelict Reaper when Cerberus discovered it - a huge proof that the Reapers exist - and everyone could have been working together to prepare for war.  But noooooo, again, TiM demonstrates he can't play well with others, he keeps the thing for himself, and it ultimately gets destroyed before Shep can show it to anyone.

True, but TIM at the very start mentions that nobody trusts him. If Cerberus leaks information out, would someone accept that information as is, or would they be suspicious of him and his motives? If Cerberus does leak information out, then it'd be via proxy methods (as in; a woman who might be sleeping with the head of Systems Alliance military procurement may obliquely reference things such as: "Hey, I hear from one of my girlfriends, oh you remember Stacy? Well... she's currently dating whats-his-face from the Alliance Geological Surveyors and he says that there's something out there in X system"). The inherent difference between Cerberus as the other organisations you listed is that Cerberus doesn't have a public face. 

I agree with you in part, I doubt you can trust TIM or Cerberus completely, but at the end of the day I don't think we have that much of a choice if we want to survive. Since TIM and Cerberus likes to throw the quote around that they are Humanity, then it seems fit to me that they'll behave in ways that benefit the Alliance, and if that's true, then the Alliance can seek greater co-operation with other species for the simple fact that the Alliance can't be everywhere at once.

I wouldn't expect to put Cerberus in a position to put forth military strategy though, I'd rather just keep them invested in R&D, since their paramilitary forces I doubt would be essential to the war effort (and if they were, well... I'd just draft them anyway, they'd still have to act on my orders, but they would be basically auxillaries.)

[ExtremeOne]

Lvl20DM wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I want them to explain why My choice at the end of 2 does not matter 

It likely will matter, just not in a way we were expecting.

   


Lets hope it does 

[Last Vizard]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Evercrow wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

"Pink" is the code that Omega 4 is set to. That's my code word for "only Reaper IFF people go here." 

"Yellow" would be our new Non-reaper IFF, that we would distribute to everyone. Then turn all those relays to Yellow, and the Reapers can't go anywhere.

Umm, I don't think it will work. I mean, even assuming Reapers don't know how to change options on the things they created themselves, they could just invade galaxy the old-fashioned way. And destroy any mass relays they encounter to avoid guerilla fights. So the IFF method will only slow the invasion. Considerably though.

But it will take time  researching the relays tech.It all depends how far Reapers are at the moment: weeks or months away, and how good Shepard can persuade(it not easy to start such research by Council and Alliance against a non-evident threat).

what i don't understand is how the Reapers are going to get here without the citadel? did noone tell Nazzara about the other option?

See, whenever anyone's going on and on about how impossible it is to beat the Reapers with our current tech level, I need to bring this up:

The Reapers want to use the Citadel because it gives them the ability to turn the relays on and off (or set them all to pink,) to surprise the primary navy of the dominant species, to get intelligence as to all their remaining weaponry, to nuke the government so that resistance is unorganized, and to basically have access to all the knowledge and records of every sentient race in the galaxy.

Every battle against the Reapers in the past has been fought with them having this advantage. This is not true this time. They also don't have an army of Geth like Sovereign had (I hope). It was always possible for them to just fly straight in from Darkspace, they just give up a huge military, strategic, and intelligence advantage to do so.

So yeah, Sovereign knew that they could just fly in. But doing so is dangerous and stupid, if it's remotely possible to take the Citadel back first. At this point (and I would argue, as soon as Sovereign was killed) they realize that they're unlikely to be able to do so, so they're hoofing it. He knew it was possible, but he also knew his people would be much, much weaker if they can't use the Citadel to cripple society.

Couldn't reply cause i was visiting relatives.

I think the Reapers are less advanced than they should be... but anyway my question is why don't the Reapers just use the relays and fly straight to the citadel and activate it? did Nazzara fear the others or can they not think outside of their box cycle thing?

[Last Vizard]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

How about every other species? You'd rather kill all of them because of how you personally feel?

Sure, you wouldnt? Jokes aside, I know we used reaper tech so far, and without it would be a nuisance to achieve anything. It is also kind of "ok" using some tech (reverse engineering) like the thanix cannon (I see this is quite double edged, I cant deny reaper tech, but use it too). But having this collector base floating in the backyard reads just "very bad idea" all over it.

why can't a system be put in place for the collector bases destruction if something goes wrong? i'll just have my goddamn cake and eat it.

See, you say it there: "why can't a system be put into place." Passive voice. Who is doing it? 

TIM is in charge. We have no control over what safety procedures he implements, or what he uses the tech for. We have no control over whether or not he dumps truckloads of human slaves into goo vats to try to make a new, control-able Reaper.

If Mordin were running this thing, I might (might) be able to concede that we can do this safely. But my best scientist spacebro isn't running this shebang, an organization with a history of not taking sufficient precautions and ignoring the bounds of ethics is. So Shepard has no control over how safe it is or how it is used.

lol you missed the point, BW left too little information for this choice, is it assumed that the base can be destroyed if something goes wrong?

[Last Vizard]

jbadm04 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

why can't a system be put in place for the collector bases destruction if something goes wrong? i'll just have my goddamn cake and eat it.

Because, by the time you realize something went wrong it is already too late to do something about it. A remote system wont help you, just my opinion here.

why not? a remote system would be hell of alot better than having to fight through the base again if somthing goes wrong, Saren's strong will was enough to break control from a near by Reaper long enough for him to kill himself... rotate the data anilist crews and have another rotating crew checking the bombs ready for self destruct or something like that.

[Last Vizard]

Almostfaceman wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think using collector tech may lead to us becoming monstrous enough to use the goo vats, somewhere down the line. Maybe it'll be tomorrow, Maybe it'll be a hundred years from now, when we decide to march the entire galaxy into the vats and start up a new fleet of Reapers. Either way, we'll be extinct.

(Again - possibly. Both conclusions are valid.) 

Indeed.

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you.
-Nietzsche

A quote at the beginning of a Baldur's Gate game by the way. 

That is the silliest reason for blowing up the base i have heard yet.

[Evercrow]

okay, forget what I said earlier.If I was pro-CB before, after playing Arrival and being given timetables...Honestly, I was hoping for another two years. A few months would only produce quick solutions, and they are often dangerous.And CitadeI or Alliance research is not possible too because of political and "believe" inertia.
Now I think that CB is only good for weapons testing(against reaper materials) and anti-indoctrination techniques.And that means human test subjects, which is very Cerberus-like.Judging how Thanix cannons work, and how subtle the indoctrination can be, I say it isn't worth the risk to leave the base intact fully under control of some ruthless bastard.

[Arijharn]

Any information we can glean from that base is useful imo. Even if we aren't able to fully explore it's potential to create new weaponry (rather just manufacture more Collector technology) then the option to explore technical schematics of the exterior Reaper shell is even more valuable than ever before.

Throwing an entire fleet against a single Reaper is not an option.

I doubt we'd be able to test for Indoctrination directly, but details may be found by examining the Reaper in the basement. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.