864 réponses à ce sujet

[Kagura_Hakubi]

It amuses me how people keep saying "I wouldn't trust MYSELF with that power, let alone TIM/council/etc"

Personally, I wouldn't trust that power with myself.

________________________

TiM: "I'll take care of your Shepard problem. In return, you must do something for me."

Harbinger: "Of course."

TiM: "Leave humanity alone until the next cycle."

Harbinger: "Done."

Shepard dies, humans dominant, council wiped out.

TiM: "Mwahaha-ack!" as an Asari-husk thrusts a hand through his chest. "Ow! My irony!" dies.

Harbinger: "Idiot."

_____________

Seboist - have you given up trying to defend your pro-cerberus stance, or do you just not want to try and think of a comeback?

[Dave of Canada]

 I'm going to assume Bioware's writers aren't going to force it on us that Cerberus suddenly goes crazy. I'm delusional that way, I'm getting sick of this "let's ****** on Renegades" agenda they seem to have. >.>

[Greysturm]

Its all a matter of opinion in the end, the point of th game is that there arent any "good or bad choices" just consequences that might make it easier or harder to achieve the final goal some might say the right way to play the me2 is everyone surviving because it makes it easier but those that are rutheless might say they dont need help to end the reapers and they didnt like their crew.
Personally i made the choice because of what legion reminded me regarding the development path the reapers established for us and got me thinking that if we get their tech we might develope like they did, which complimented my usual best for everyone ideal and distrust of cerberus with too much power.

[Ieldra]

LordNige wrote...
I guess the derelict reaper and object rho weren't hint enough that REAPER TECH IS BAD. I bet the research team are husks after one week on the Collector base...

I'm so sick of this "Reaper tech is bad" dogma. It isn't magic, damn it. It's just technology. This is no evil Cthulhu stuff, no artifact of doom. It can be analyzed. It can be known, it can be adapted.

No Reaper artifact has ever indoctrinated anyone who was not standing near it completely unprotected. That idiot Dr. Chandana set up camp *in* a Reaper, no wonder he and his team got indoctrinated. If any of those idiots dealing with Reaper tech in the games knew the least bit about safety measures there would've been 80% less indoctrination. These events don't show the danger of Reaper tech as much as they show the stupidity of the people dealing with it. Any RL science team - yes, ANY one - would be 1000% more careful with that stuff if they even remotely suspected it could present a danger to their mental health.

Can we deal with it? I don't know with certainty, but when the automobile was invented, people thought it was too dangerous and for a time, the law required a man with a black flag to run in front of one all the time. And where are we now? Can we deal with nukes? Well, 65 years is short in human history, but we haven't blown ourselves up yet. Humans adapt to the technology they're using. The only question is can we adapt fast enough.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[88mphSlayer]

Pwener2313 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Bioware, plot-hammering people into being holier-than-thou paragons?

Man, I hope not. If that's the route they're taking, I'll be the first to never buy another BW game ever again.

yeah that would be dumb since i usually like being renegade/evil/whatever in bioware's games

[Stinkface27]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Bioware, plot-hammering people into being holier-than-thou paragons?

Man, I hope not. If that's the route they're taking, I'll be the first to never buy another BW game ever again.

yeah that would be dumb since i usually like being renegade/evil/whatever in bioware's games

How would we have known that? Certainly your avatar wouldn't have given it away.

[Shirosaki17]

It's obvious Cerberus knows why the Reapers want Shepard and want to kill him to prevent the Reapers from getting what they want.

[Bourne Endeavor]

MisterJB wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And again, we disagree. The continued existence of our species is important, yes. However, I feel that there's no point in saving humanity if we lose our humanity in the process and become worse than the Reapers.

This... does not even make sense. It is nothing beyond blind idealism at best and just illogical otherwise. We would only "lose our humanity" - one of the worst statements in the game - if we utilized the base for nefarious purposes. Turn off the squishy device and we have technology to study in face of a galaxy threat capable of complete annihilation to all organic life. Unless ME3 provides a plausible scenario for TIM to become our antagonist. This is merely a retcon or the base will have little to no importance in a similar capacity to the Council.

The choice was awful because it was a false dichotomy but blowing the base up on the off chance we discover an alternative method is just... idiocy. I suppose the logic; loose as it may be, is TIM would be it for evil. In spite of this, we can destroy it later were that the case.

Try to put that into context. When I spoke against humanity becoming worse than the Reapers, I was talking about a possible future where Humanity chose to create its own Reapers by sacrificing millions of humans.

The reasons I destroyed the base were not just because I did not find TIM trusthworthy. Personally, I chose to destroy the Collector Base because I would no trust anyone in the Galaxy with that kind of power, even if we knew it is secure (we do not). Not Cerberus, not the Alliance, not even myself.
Had there been a third choice: "Keep the base for Shepard", I would still have destroyed it, working with raper tec  just has too many inherent risks.

With that line of thought, you have created an impasse, from which is no plausible alternative beyond imminent demise. If you do not trust yourself with "that much power." How do you propose the Reapers can be destroyed? It is a given probability we will have to harness significant power, yet by this presumption you would not trust yourself to wield it.

What if we used their theory, "the risk to great" when Cerberus sent a team to the derelict Reaper? We would have never discovered the IFF. At times, we must gamble to persevere, otherwise we become stagnate at best and lose everything at worst.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Look, if you disagree with MisterJB - guess what - you can keep the base and never say the whole "lose our humanity in the process" line. Problem solved.  You don't have to agree with us who hold that line.

And easy with the "idiocy" remark.  I don't consider it stupid - there's a whole butt-load of Reaper tech out there to study *looks squarely at the Citadel* - handing over the Collector base to an Unknown (TiM the mysterious & control freak) doesn't make any sense to me at all.  I'm going to have my hands full with the Reapers the last thing I need to worry about is cleaning up another Cerberus mad scientist project headed by TiM the Incompetent.

First, I called the rationality used idiocy because frankly it titters heavily toward that definition. If you fancy another terminology, then shortsighted and wishful thinking come to mind. Either way, sacrificing a possible weapon on the hope we may discover an alternative means is... well I would be repeating myself.

Where is this Reaper tech? Right, we inquired about Sovereign and Anderson's claimed their was virtually nothing left. It was one of the primary reasons the Council disregarded the Reaper's existence. You both perpetrate the scenario TIM and Cerberus will inevitably fumble. What if I spin it in the opposite direction and researching the Base led to a means of either understanding or potentially combating the Reapers? Congratulations, you just blew it up. See, the benefit of keeping the base is it is not going anywhere. We can detonate it later were it to become problematic.

Regardless, the choice itself is a false dichotomy for reasons I stated earlier, and hence why I dislike either.

[RiouHotaru]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LordNige wrote...
I guess the derelict reaper and object rho weren't hint enough that REAPER TECH IS BAD. I bet the research team are husks after one week on the Collector base...

I'm so sick of this "Reaper tech is bad" dogma. It isn't magic, damn it. It's just technology. This is no evil Cthulhu stuff, no artifact of doom. It can be analyzed. It can be known, it can be adapted.

No Reaper artifact has ever indoctrinated anyone who was not standing near it completely unprotected. That idiot Dr. Chandana set up camp *in* a Reaper, no wonder he and his team got indoctrinated. If any of those idiots dealing with Reaper tech in the games knew the least bit about safety measures there would've been 80% less indoctrination. These events don't show the danger of Reaper tech as much as they show the stupidity of the people dealing with it. Any RL science team - yes, ANY one - would be 1000% more careful with that stuff if they even remotely suspected it could present a danger to their mental health.

Can we deal with it? I don't know with certainty, but when the automobile was invented, people thought it was too dangerous and for a time, the law required a man with a black flag to run in front of one all the time. And where are we now? Can we deal with nukes? Well, 65 years is short in human history, but we haven't blown ourselves up yet. Humans adapt to the technology they're using. The only question is can we adapt fast enough.

While I admire your conviction, the whole POINT of the Reapers is that they're a huge reference to Lovecraft.  And like it or not, somehow being exposed to live (semi)active Reaper tech causes people to get indoctrinated, through a process that cannot be explained by science as of right now.  You know the whole "Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" quote?  Applies right here.

Pretty much every attempt to work around live Reaper tech ends in failure.  Without exception.  There's absolutely NO reason to believe it won't happen again with the Base.  Reaper tech is obviously not to taken lightly.  It's not even so much the stupidity of the science team so much as it is "we don't understand how Indoctrination works".  Notice that between the science group on the Dead Reaper, Saren, and now Kenson, indoctrination works slowly and inconspicuously.  Everyone exposed has absolutely no idea they've been exposed and don't even realize they're being controlled (save Saren at the end if ME1 for a brief instant) or changed.

You just have to accept the fact that for whatever reason live Reaper tech causes this unexplainable mental damage and is generally unsafe to be around in pretty much ANY capacity.

[JamieCOTC]

Keeping the base is not necessarily a bad idea. Giving the base to TIM is a bad idea. And I didn't have to wait for the "Cerberus IS Humanity" bit to know that.

[Bourne Endeavor]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Keeping the base is not necessarily a bad idea. Giving the base to TIM is a bad idea. And I didn't have to wait for the "Cerberus IS Humanity" bit to know that.

This here is essentially the jist and why I argue the choice should have been whether we give access to the Alliance or Cerberus.

[PlumPaul93]

I thought it was common knowledge that renagade=bad choice?

[aimlessgun]

RiouHotaru wrote...
While I admire your conviction, the whole POINT of the Reapers is that they're a huge reference to Lovecraft.  And like it or not, somehow being exposed to live (semi)active Reaper tech causes people to get indoctrinated, through a process that cannot be explained by science as of right now.  You know the whole "Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" quote?  Applies right here.

Pretty much every attempt to work around live Reaper tech ends in failure.  Without exception.  There's absolutely NO reason to believe it won't happen again with the Base.  Reaper tech is obviously not to taken lightly.  It's not even so much the stupidity of the science team so much as it is "we don't understand how Indoctrination works".  Notice that between the science group on the Dead Reaper, Saren, and now Kenson, indoctrination works slowly and inconspicuously.  Everyone exposed has absolutely no idea they've been exposed and don't even realize they're being controlled (save Saren at the end if ME1 for a brief instant) or changed.

You just have to accept the fact that for whatever reason live Reaper tech causes this unexplainable mental damage and is generally unsafe to be around in pretty much ANY capacity.

Whether the 'POINT' of the Reapers is a Lovecraft reference is your opinion, as is Reaper tech = space magic. You can argue the other side by pointing out the many ways in which Mass Effect has tried to stick to scientifically believable details. I'm not saying that it isn't space magic, just that we cannot know with the information thus far given.

And...what attempts to circumvent indoctrination? As far as I can tell, there have been none. The team on the Derelict Reaper didn't seem to take any. Kenson's team? Safety precautions? Don't make me laugh. Some random bull**** in a research playback about precautions is meaningless when absolutely nothing of the sort is shown.

And indoctrination, inconspicuous? Suddenly appearing insane dreams doesn't sound inconspicuous to me. Competent research teams don't think "well, we knew that it might mess with our minds, but I'm sure these really disturbing visions are no problem at all!". Competent research teams don't put absolutely all their personnell near the artifact without someone checking in from the outside, in case people are indoctrinated to not think the dreams are a problem (even though the people in the logs clearly do think their dreams are a problem).

I'm sure you understand why people argue so strenuously against this. Plot Convenient Space Magic ™ is not something we want in our game.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 08 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[RiouHotaru]

aimlessgun wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
While I admire your conviction, the whole POINT of the Reapers is that they're a huge reference to Lovecraft.  And like it or not, somehow being exposed to live (semi)active Reaper tech causes people to get indoctrinated, through a process that cannot be explained by science as of right now.  You know the whole "Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" quote?  Applies right here.

Pretty much every attempt to work around live Reaper tech ends in failure.  Without exception.  There's absolutely NO reason to believe it won't happen again with the Base.  Reaper tech is obviously not to taken lightly.  It's not even so much the stupidity of the science team so much as it is "we don't understand how Indoctrination works".  Notice that between the science group on the Dead Reaper, Saren, and now Kenson, indoctrination works slowly and inconspicuously.  Everyone exposed has absolutely no idea they've been exposed and don't even realize they're being controlled (save Saren at the end if ME1 for a brief instant) or changed.

You just have to accept the fact that for whatever reason live Reaper tech causes this unexplainable mental damage and is generally unsafe to be around in pretty much ANY capacity.

Whether the 'POINT' of the Reapers is a Lovecraft reference is your opinion, as is Reaper tech = space magic. You can argue the other side by pointing out the many ways in which Mass Effect has tried to stick to scientifically believable details. I'm not saying that it isn't space magic, just that we cannot know with the information thus far given.

And...what attempts to circumvent indoctrination? As far as I can tell, there have been none. The team on the Derelict Reaper didn't seem to take any. Kenson's team? Safety precautions? Don't make me laugh. Some random bull**** in a research playback about precautions is meaningless when absolutely nothing of the sort is shown.

And indoctrination, inconspicuous? Suddenly appearing insane dreams doesn't sound inconspicuous to me. Competent research teams don't think "well, we knew that it might mess with our minds, but I'm sure these really disturbing visions are no problem at all!".

But most of them don't notice the subtle changes in their own personality.  Kenson started questioning the project after exposure to the artifact, and has changed her mind about the Project completely by the time you get to her.  She didn't even notice the change herself, and by the time she might have it was already far too late.

Also, simply because the narrative didn't explicitly state safeguards doesn't mean none existed.  It's simply the case that the safeguards do NOT work.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd believe the "Reaper Tech = Bad" generalization if it was actually shown as Reaper Tech being bad.

Mass Effect 1 & 2's conclusions both have the understanding of Reaper tech playing an almost crucial part of the downfall of the Reapers in that narrative, though. How do you explain that? Is Reaper Tech still bad then?

[Fixers0]

I'm fairly certain that the choice will have a neutral effect on the outcome of Mass effect 2, Keeping the base could give potential information, but i might also be large trap.

[DeathScepter]

Knowing your enemies is important. So why not study Reaper Tech. For example, Legion studied Reaper Tech from the Dead Reaper and with the virus program was able to stop or rewrite the Heretic Geth.

[Blacklash93]

If Cerberus wasn't going to betray you they still would have found another way to screw it up somehow.

... Look at every experiment they've ever done with new technology.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

DeathScepter wrote...

Knowing your enemies is important. So why not study Reaper Tech. For example, Legion studied Reaper Tech from the Dead Reaper and with the virus program was able to stop or rewrite the Heretic Geth.

Legion can't be indoctrinated.

[shinobi602]

When was it ever a good idea? o.O

[88mphSlayer]

shinobi602 wrote...

When was it ever a good idea? o.O

the risks of indoctrination can be minimized by rotating new personnel in when the previous shift has reached a safe but cautionary limit (say - 24 hours), and that's IF personnel need to even be on site, i'm sure Cerberus can afford some robots

don't tell me reaper tech is the new fire and we're just monkeys again...

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 08 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[shinobi602]

88mphSlayer wrote...

the risks of indoctrination can be minimized by rotating new personnel in when the previous shift has reached a safe but cautionary limit (say - 24 hours), and that's IF personnel need to even be on site, i'm sure Cerberus can afford some robots

don't tell me reaper tech is the new fire and we're just monkeys again...

How would they even know or measure how far and fast the indoctrination progresses? They don't know anything about how it functions or what exactly it affects in the a person or his/her mind.

Modifié par shinobi602, 08 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

MisterJB wrote...


I was just giving an extreme example of what can be done with the Collector Base and what The Illusive Man would be willing to do.

If it doesn't make sense to do so, why would he be willing to do it? Is your position that he's such an idiot that he'll do the stupidist, most non-sensible thing just because?