202 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dave666 wrote...

@Phaedon and Terror_K I've read over your discussion and I kinda see where you are both coming from. I would argue that calling the upgrade system in ME:2 God-modding is not the most acurate, better to simply say its completely linear. People simply get each upgrade and don't have to think too much about its pro's or cons, the only con is resources required. Compare that to ME:1 weapon mods, was a certain ammount of Linearity with those too I-X for example, however there was also a much better element of choice.

Do you want a weapon that can fire forever? Yes? Then use two Frictionless Mats. Do you want to be able to see the enemies on the Radar? Yes? Then sub in a Combat Scanner. Do you want to do more damage over a shorter time frame? Yes? Then use two Scram Rails. Same with Ammo mods. Some people liked to use Explosive rounds in their Sniper Rifle which turned it into a rocket launcher. I preferred to be able to keep up constant fire so I used Shredder/Tungsten ammo and Fric Mats.

There was much greater choice for this kind of thing in ME:1 than ME:2 and hopefully with the re-introduction of weapon modding (in a new form) we will get back some of that level of choice.

*Edited for spelling and formatting derpery*

Yes. That's how I think it will work on ME3. More like modifications on how you shoot the weapons. I hope there will be an upgrade system for them and don't work like looting because it was hell to manage that.
As to ammo, I'm curious to see what will they do. IMO they worked much better in ME2 overall but I don't really think they should be a power but they worked much better in gameplay. I'll explain. Ammo powers worked well because it was simple to change them and made sense how it evolved and in the game design. Some button presses and you equip all your squad with an ammo, some button presses and you change without having to go to inventory screen. I think this kind of system should remain, you select it in pause menu, only it's not a power. Going on inventory screen everytime to change tungsten to shredder was annoying as hell.

[Dave666]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

@Phaedon and Terror_K I've read over your discussion and I kinda see where you are both coming from. I would argue that calling the upgrade system in ME:2 God-modding is not the most acurate, better to simply say its completely linear. People simply get each upgrade and don't have to think too much about its pro's or cons, the only con is resources required. Compare that to ME:1 weapon mods, was a certain ammount of Linearity with those too I-X for example, however there was also a much better element of choice.

Do you want a weapon that can fire forever? Yes? Then use two Frictionless Mats. Do you want to be able to see the enemies on the Radar? Yes? Then sub in a Combat Scanner. Do you want to do more damage over a shorter time frame? Yes? Then use two Scram Rails. Same with Ammo mods. Some people liked to use Explosive rounds in their Sniper Rifle which turned it into a rocket launcher. I preferred to be able to keep up constant fire so I used Shredder/Tungsten ammo and Fric Mats.

There was much greater choice for this kind of thing in ME:1 than ME:2 and hopefully with the re-introduction of weapon modding (in a new form) we will get back some of that level of choice.

*Edited for spelling and formatting derpery*

Yes. That's how I think it will work on ME3. More like modifications on how you shoot the weapons. I hope there will be an upgrade system for them and don't work like looting because it was hell to manage that.
As to ammo, I'm curious to see what will they do. IMO they worked much better in ME2 overall but I don't really think they should be a power but they worked much better in gameplay. I'll explain. Ammo powers worked well because it was simple to change them and made sense how it evolved and in the game design. Some button presses and you equip all your squad with an ammo, some button presses and you change without having to go to inventory screen. I think this kind of system should remain, you select it in pause menu, only it's not a power. Going on inventory screen everytime to change tungsten to shredder was annoying as hell.

For the Ammo, if they keep them as Powers then I would personally prefer it if they simply added a second ring inside the main one on the power wheel and everyone could use Ammo Powers regardless of class, (The basic ones at the very least).  Why can my Adept not use Disruptor Ammo, when its a function of a gun not class?

[cactusberry]

Yay to everything.

^.^

[KotOREffecT]

Yay to Ashley!...... Yayzers! Yayzas! and Yayza-ta-ta-fa-fa-ra-ra..ha-ha.......ra..

[Silmane]

Arcian wrote...

Silmane wrote...

Nay: Being on trial.

Deal with giant plotholes? Ya, I guess I can deal with that. Since I've been doing it already. 

My Shepard on trial? 

[kinna]

Sounds nice. Yay on all! I just hope that they get rid of the mission complete screens. Major immersion breaker.

[Nathan Redgrave]

It just occured to me:

Trying to make your Renegade Shepard not look like a total douchenozzle if your Renegade Psycho-Cyborg glowing-eye look carries over from your ME2 save... is going to be... problematic.

[RogueWriter3201]

 This might be dropped by some into the catagory of  typical Fanboy Love, but I say Yay to everthing on the list...with the exception of weapons being available to all classes (to an extent), I kind of enjoyed the fact that my squadmates only had on thier persons a single specilized weapon, or two at the most. Seeing Tali running around with a Rifle, Sniper, her beloved Shotgun, *and* a pistol is not something I'm keen on seeing again. Other then that, I'm absolutely stoked at all the other plot elements, along with the story and gameplay mechanics.

Now, folks need to keep in mind that there *is* a chance these things may be tweeked, replaced or outright removed before the game drops hopefully early in 2012, (I say next year because I want this game to get all the polish/bug testing it needs. The Greedy Suits at EA need to go sit on thier hands or something) so getting too excited or overly vexed at anything on the list might be a bit premature. Still, it reads as a promising conclusion to Shepard's story, and the screen shots shown are fairly awesome, if highly speculative.  

[Ahriman]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Trying to make your Renegade Shepard not look like a total douchenozzle

Why?

[Nathan Redgrave]

Wizz wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Trying to make your Renegade Shepard not look like a total douchenozzle

Why?

Because you're on trial, sillykins. Showing up looking like Satan's psychotic half-brother would be a slightly bad idea.

[Ahriman]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Showing up looking like Satan's psychotic half-brother

Sounds great to me.
Ok, I'm bad at Renegade roleplay.

[Valikdu]

Nay to Cerberus trying to kill you, IF this occurs regardless of Shepard giving TIM the base.
Yay to everything else.

[Terror_K]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

Problems? Which problems exactly do they have? I'd love to listen to your complaints about them, since I don't find any problems that they cause.[/quote]

That ammo powers make no logical sense and that the upgrade system is a shallow, linear over-automated mess. For somebody who claims to like freedom in their games they sure prefer a system that restricts ammo types to particular classes when they weren't before and an upgrade system that just does all the work for you with no real customisation at all. The former is a classic case of a restriction that's stupid (after all, my Adept and Engineer could use any mods they wanted in ME1, so how come only Soldiers and Vanguards can use them now?) and the latter is a case of too much freedom to the point where it does all the work for you and takes the player almost entirely out of the equation.

[quote]
Imbalance. You can rape everything with Frictionless Materials for example. As well as I to X upgrades with no meaning, that are messy and make your inventory full of junk.[/quote]

While Frictionless Materials was a tad overpowered, it was only available in the three highest tiers, so you were already pretty much a god by the time you could get them. I to X upgrades are not limited to mods but were a factor that plagued the whole inventory system and all items, so that doesn't count (since my initial claim supporting the ME1 mods was that their only issues were ones globally related to the inventory as a whole). One could easily have just kicked the likes of I to X aside like they did for everything else in ME2 and simply kept mods, as well as reducing them to the same "scan once and you've got all you'll ever need" approach the weapons, armour and other upgrades took. It would have been a damn sight better than the linear, automated piece of crap system we got. In either case, modding is back in ME3 so I'm happy.

[quote]
I beg to differ. The inventory was the main thing Mass Effect was criticized for, and the ME1 weapon mods have had a very important role on it.[/quote]

Again, as I said and you seem to ignore, this was related to the inventory as a whole. Mods were no guiltier than weapons and armour were, and they didn't go the way of the dodo. I'd also like to see omni-tools and biotic amps return in some form, but I get the feeling that won't be the case. Overall though, mods themselves didn't really cause many issues, and were one of the things fans missed most (which is stated in the GI article and why they're coming back, albeit in an altered form).

[quote]
Yes, it is exactly hard to do.
Unless you mod your game or mine every single planet, yes, it is quite hard.[/quote]

Let me guess, you didn't import. If you import from ME1 with a Level 60 character you can get most of your stuff bought and researched without even having to scan a single place. Wih my main Shepard I got all the upgrades easily well before even LotSB came out and had resources to spare, and I didn't even scan all that much. It's not hard at all if you're a completionist.

[quote]
Except that they didn't change from one thing to a completely different one.
Thermal clips are heat sinks that are just removed more often, I don't understand what point you are trying to make.[/quote]

What's so hard to understand? You seem to be looking at it from a purely gameplay standpoint from the sounds of it. Most of my issues related to thermal clips are from a lore and in-universe one, as clearly stated in my prior statement. I can see why they did it from a gameplay perspective, but it breaks the universe in order to do it, and I'm not sure that the ME universe should be taking such a silly hit for a gameplay mechanic I don't really consider to be lore-breaking worthy in the grand scheme of things.

[quote]
First of all, 'god-modding' is a term that applies only in matters of role-playing. For example, 'You can't take down a giant with your fists, that's god-modding!'
Secondly, how was what you said god-modding. I think that you are confusing this term, you might want to use a different one to have your point come across.[/quote]

It's God-modding in the sense that by the end of the game all your weapons and items are maxed out and there's no trade-offs or limitations on this at all. People complained about the Spectre Weapons in ME1, but the research/upgrade system of ME2 is far worse IMO because with no real effort or downside you can basically turn everything you have into Master Spectre Gear as if it's slotted with every mod there is.  At the end of the game, with everything researched and upgraded, all your equipment is maxed out in every way. They are God-modded items essentially, just like a God-modded sword made by a modder for Dragon Age, NWN or Oblivion would be. In an RPG there should be top tier items and/or ways to upgrade your stuff, but you should always have to make a choice between A or B or C when doing it. With ME2's system at the end you just have every item with upgrades A and B and C and beyond all the way to Z. It makes the whole system linear and broken, takes away real choice and customisation and doesn't really engage the player at all because it's just so automated and impersonal. My weapons are going to be the same as every other Mass Effect 2 player at the end of the game pretty much because I can have my cake and eat it too, and so can they.

[quote]
I don't understand why 'two were added' and why not 'five were added' or 'seven were added'.
Unlike combat powers, passive skills had a minor effect on how I, personally played my game.[/quote]

So you didn't have to make sure you had a tech-based character with you
in ME1 if you weren't tech-based yourself so you could
open/unlock/hack/decrypt things then?

In either case, when you narrow down an RPG to only focus on combat like that, you basically reduce it to just being a bunch of powers and that's it. The whole point of RPGs and classes when it comes to builds is to have various skills to deal with various situations and circumstances. ME2 reduces it to just one type of skill and one type of sitation or circumstance: combat. That's it. If you're going to do that, you may as well just create the game like one of those old shoot-em ups where you earn credits and spend it on giving your ship new abilites and weapons at the end of each stage, because that's basically what it's become now.

[quote]
I suggest that if you are incapable of staying calm and phrasing polite arguments instead of personal attacks, you should avoid debates on the future.[/quote]

I'm not intending to insult, it's just that it's so frustrating trying to communicate things to you when you either seem to just not get it or are stubbornly adamant that restrictions aren't necessary when they are.

[quote]
I am afraid that you haven't proved how weapons are class-defining in the Mass Effect games.

Unlike a mage's staff for example, there is nothing lore-wise that implies that Biotics can't fire ARs for example.[/quote]

It's about training. A Soldier is a pure, military fighter... a marine basically, who concentrates on combat and weapons directly. A biotic specialises in using their biotics more than anything, and a tech-based class specialises in tech. While everybody in the armed forces can fire a weapon, not all of them have extensive combat training and know how you use all the weapons. The same would apply to the Alliance military. A biotic Shepard would have spent more time honing their biotic skills than using more advanced weapons, and the same goes for a tech-expert. There's no real reason they can't, but they probably wouldn't have. Beyond that, it just balances the classes better to have the restrictions in place, IMO.

[quote]
Interesting, I was under the impression that RPGs were special because they allowed you more freedom than other games. As long as the freedom is game-breaking, how exactly is it bad?[/quote]

Too much freedom is game-breaking though. RPGs offer more options overall than most other types of games, but they also close off more as well, and limit them. Again, classes are defined by their skills. If anybody can have those skills and has pure freedom to just pick from the whole selection then the skills that once-defined those classes no longer do and are no longer special. RPGs are about offering great freedom and choice, but in order to have choice you need to be able to cut off other options when choices are made, otherwise it's not really choice at all. You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too in a good RPG, not in the right areas. If you're a Soldier then you have to accept that you can't have biotic or tech skills, and visa versa.

[quote]
A basket that carries applies is called an apple basket because it carries apples, not because it doesn't carry oranges.[/quote]

That may be, but if you put oranges in it it ceases to be an apple basket and just becomes a fruit basket instead. And that's the issue here: restrictions are needed to define what something is. A Soldier may not technically cease to be a Soldier if another class has his skills, but he certainly ceases to be special, defined and unique any more. An RPG needs a whole bunch of different kinds of fruit baskets to work by restricting the fruit, otherwise instead of having "apple baskets" and "orange baskets" etc. you just have fruit baskets. Freedom and customisation is pointless when there are no limits. Again, when everybody can be special, nobody can.

[quote]
Therefore, once the skill is unlocked it shouldn't be upgraded anymore?
That doesn't sound bad.[/quote]

No. Skills are not binary or static. RPGs are about progression and experience. The more you do something, the better you get at it, and this is often reflected in RPGs by you investing points in some manner to improve the skill. Skills should also be restricted to those who suit them and not just be handed around anywhere. Allowing anybody with no training to just become a tech expert is no better than just letting a non-biotic have a biotic power for no real reason except "they can." Again, restrictions need to be put in place, and these restrictions help define the classes. Singularity doesn't make an Adept special or unique if every class can have it, and being able to use passive tech abilities is no longer special when anybody can do it and it's reduced to not even being a skill at all.

[quote]
No, what I believe is that freedom is very important in RPGs.
As long as it doesn't break my game, I want as much freedom as I can have.[/quote]

Again, too much freedom without restrictions and boundaries does break the game. I've explained this countless times already. This is getting tiresome.

[quote]
You mean that the shooting elements should be determined by the classic RPG elements?
Well, that's not a hybrid. That's an RPG with a few shooter elements.[/quote]

Which is exactly how Mass Effect started with the original game, funnily enough. In either case, that's not exactly what I meant. What I meant is that the shooter factors need to gel with and work in with the RPG ones and be part of them, rather than be loosely connected and isolated.

[quote]
These two tend to be opposites.[/quote]

If by this point you can't see why they're not, I give up. <_<

[CroGamer002]

Silmane wrote...


Deal with giant plotholes? Ya, I guess I can deal with that. Since I've been doing it already. 

My Shepard on trial? 

*snip*

How is that a plothole?

[J. Finley]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Wizz wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Trying to make your Renegade Shepard not look like a total douchenozzle

Why?

Because you're on trial, sillykins. Showing up looking like Satan's psychotic half-brother would be a slightly bad idea.

Hell, nobody else ever notices it, why would the judge?

[Ship.wreck_]

Terror_K wrote...

Regarding the "nays" from me:

- I feel that having a comic intro is a bit silly. I always felt that the proper consequences, etc. for imports was a reward for players who had played the previous games, and that kind of takes away from that. I understand it's probably to help them sell more copies to those who may not have played ME1 and/or ME2, but still... I hope it at least only covers major stuff and those of us who have stuck through the whole thing still get more than newbies. Still, if this means ME3 is a little more dependent on the originals, then I can take the hit there.

- I wish the weapons would be more varied to be honest. Still... at least modding is back, and hopefully there's at least more this time than in vanilla ME2.

I liked that there were different types of each weapon class in ME2. I thought that was awesome. But the totall lack of customization totally sucked. What they should do is combine the systems of ME and ME2. As in different types of each weapon class like ME2 PLUS multiple manufacturers like ME PLUS customization like ME. But less convoluted. For example simply unlocking a type of upgrad and having it available to all weapons. Instead of having to find an individual instance of each upgrade for each gun you want to put it on. That way we don't have to deal with that stupidly long 150 item list.

- This is the worst one, IMO. What's the point of having classes at all anymore if any of them can just use whatever weapon they like. Seems like more streamlining to me.
- See above basically.

This sounds like the original ME, and this is actually the BETTER way to do it. Because honestly, if you specialize in shotguns, does that automatically mean that you are PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of operating any other weapon? Hell no! Granted shotgun might be your specialty but sometimes a shotgun is just inapropriate and useless! You should be able to use whatever you need to use to get the job done. You're just BETTER at using some things than you are at others. But all should be available.

ME2 pissed me off. I've got guy that only uses SMG's and one guy that only uses shotguns and a bunch of enemies that are too far away for SMG's and Shotguns. I should be able to tell my guys to us Assault riffles even though it's not their specialty, but NO. Now I have to do all the work by myself instead. That just doesn't make any sense.

[Ship.wreck_]

YAY
- Game begins with Shepard on Earth
Sure why not? I don't really care.
- Shepard is on trial in regard to the events of Arrival
Didn't play it. Don't realy care.
- Reapers invade while the trial is happening
Shepard says "Whew". Good timing.
- Prologue: Shepard’s escape to the Normandy, off to start finding allies, fighting Reaper troops
Almost getting spoilerish here.
- Squadmates include Liara, Ashley/Kaiden, Garrus, James Sanders
Awesome! My girls from ME are back!!! Garrus is dope. Is james the british dude?
- Screenshot shown of Ashley with her hair down
Bout damn time!
- Game will show a “previously on Mass Effect” comic to make decisions if you’re starting from scartch
Meh, whatever.
- The Illusive Man plays a big role
I hope I finally get to kick his ass.
- Cerberus is out to kill Shepard
I told you they were badguys from the begining! What, murdering admirals and sending YOU into traps uninformed didn't tip you guys off?
- Enhanced RPG elements
Don't know specifically what that means, but sure why not? Hopefully means even more choices and consequences that's always cool.
- More freedom with character skills
Sounds good to me. There are no boundaries to what you can learn. Shouldn't be any in ME either.
- Larger skill trees
Sure why not.
- Powers will evolve several times, not just once
MEh, whatever.
- Weapons are like the ones in Mass Effect 2, have a set list
Could be good or bad thing, see my last post.
- Mods returning, swap out different parts such as barrels, scopes (effect both the weapon’s combat performance and its appearance)
Awesome! I love customization! Its what makes the world of guns go round! Always bothered me that mods didn't change appearance in ME too, so glad to see that's gonna happen now! Hope I can make a short barreled CQB assault riffle and a high powered battle riffle version of AR!
- All classes can wield all weapons unhindered now
Just like ME. Thank god!
- There will be limited slots to carry these weapons
Ok, I can deal with that. Just have to choose wisely.
- Soldier can carry all weapons at once
HELL YEAH! That's why I love soldier class!
- Adept, Engineer, and Sentinal will likely be limited to two weapons, three for Vanguard and Infiltrator
OK.
- Numerous endings
Potentially AWESOME. As long as they wrote it well.
- Who you have in your squad and which allies you recruit greatly impact the endings that are available
COOL!
- No multiplayer
Too damn many online multiplayers anyway. Online multiplay is always a huge pain in the ass, with lag, hackers and connection issues. All multiplayer games should have the option of on console multiplayer. Including PC.

NAY
- Confirmed appearances (may not be squadmates): Wrex, Mordin, Legion, and Anderson
Legion damn well better be a squd mate! I've been waiting since ME to have a Geth on my side, and I didn't even get it till the very end of ME2? And now they might take him away? BS!

[Phaedon]

[quote]Terror_K wrote…
That ammo powers make no logical sense[/quote]
Which scientific principle of the 22nd century do they conflict with this time?

[quote] hat the upgrade system is a shallow, linear over-automated mess.[/quote]
[quote] hat the upgrade system is a shallow[/quote]
As shallow as upgrading from Upgrade I to Upgrade II. The difference is, weapons are (more) diverse inME2, and they are not basically the same items with different stats.

[quote] linear[/quote]
Again, less linear than upgrading from I to II?
I can understand how a couple of the ME1 mods had an actual effect in the gameplay, other than changing a stat, but how do you compare these with ammo powers and diverse weapons?

[quote]over-automated[/quote]
You mean, linear? Yeah, you already said that.
[quote] mess[/quote]
Is this sarcasm.

‘mess’
Hmm

[quote] For somebody who claims to like freedom in their games they sure prefer a system that restricts ammo types to particular classes when they weren't before and an upgrade system that just does all the work for you with no real customisation at all. The former is a classic case of a restriction that's stupid (after all, my Adept and Engineer could use any mods they wanted in ME1, so how come only Soldiers and Vanguards can use them now?) and the latter is a case of too much freedom to the point where it does all the work for you and takes the player almost entirely out of the equation.[/quote]
But it is quite simple, I think.
The upgrade system was done so obscenely wrong in ME1 that all that they did was to cut the fat. They didn’t improve it, they fixed it. Why it was bad?

You had a lot of upgrades, right?
Most had no effect in your gameplay, at all, other than a minor modification of some stat. And then, there are ammo types, which actually worked. If I remember correctly, ammo types, did return in ME2.

And, the problem is. Someone thought that making 10 versions of the same upgrade with minor improvements would make the upgrades good.

Well, they made the improvements worse. They filled your inventory and the way of upgrading your weapons was automated. No one has the patience to find turning Explosive Ammo I to II in all of your squadmates inventories, one by one as ‘fun’.


[quote] and the latter is a case of too much freedom to the point where it does all the work for you and takes the player almost entirely out of the equation. [/quote]
And yet, how is ME1 any more ‘restricted’? You could regardless of class, find numerous upgrades that did nothing but change your stat.

[quote]
While Frictionless Materials was a tad overpowered, it was only available in the three highest tiers, so you were already pretty much a god by the time you could get them. I to X upgrades are not limited to mods but were a factor that plagued the whole inventory system and all items, so that doesn't count (since my initial claim supporting the ME1 mods was that their only issues were ones globally related to the inventory as a whole). One could easily have just kicked the likes of I to X aside like they did for everything else in ME2 and simply kept mods, as well as reducing them to the same "scan once and you've got all you'll ever need" approach the weapons, armour and other upgrades took. It would have been a damn sight better than the linear, automated piece of crap system we got. In either case, modding is back in ME3 so I'm happy. [/quote]
Frictionless Materials, was one of the overpowered upgrades.
Most upgrades from VII to X were already ridiculously overpowered.

And from what you say, the only problem you had with the ME2 system was the fact that the upgrades were global?

[quote] Again, as I said and you seem to ignore, this was related to the inventory as a whole. Mods were no guiltier than weapons and armour were, and they didn't go the way of the dodo. I'd also like to see omni-tools and biotic amps return in some form, but I get the feeling that won't be the case. Overall though, mods themselves didn't really cause many issues, and were one of the things fans missed most (which is stated in the GI article and why they're coming back, albeit in an altered form).[/quote]
Yes, they are as guilty as the weapons and armour.
Items with no extra properties other than a slightly different statistical value. We already had enough identical weapons and armour, why did we need 10-stage upgrades as well?

[quote] Let me guess, you didn't import. If you import from ME1 with a Level 60 character you can get most of your stuff bought and researched without even having to scan a single place. Wih my main Shepard I got all the upgrades easily well before even LotSB came out and had resources to spare, and I didn't even scan all that much. It's not hard at all if you're a completionist.[/quote]
[quote] . It's not hard at all if you're a completionist.[/quote]
Thank you very much for proving my point.

[quote]
What's so hard to understand? You seem to be looking at it from a purely gameplay standpoint from the sounds of it. Most of my issues related to thermal clips are from a lore and in-universe one, as clearly stated in my prior statement. I can see why they did it from a gameplay perspective, but it breaks the universe in order to do it, and I'm not sure that the ME universe should be taking such a silly hit for a gameplay mechanic I don't really consider to be lore-breaking worthy in the grand scheme of things.[/quote]
A game mechanic doesn’t need a lore explanation, but I still don’t understand how it’s against what we know already?

[quote] lore-breaking worthy in the grand scheme of things.[/quote]
In the grand scheme of things, the gameplay has been always the most important part of a game, except for text adventures were it’s just one of the important parts of the game. (i.e. Having the ability to accept several words as commands, directional commands etc)


[quote]It's God-modding in the sense that by the end of the game all your weapons and items are maxed out and there's no trade-offs or limitations on this at all.[/quote]
Incorrect statement.

[quote] People complained about the Spectre Weapons in ME1, but the research/upgrade system of ME2 is far worse IMO because with no real effort or downside you can basically turn everything you have into Master Spectre Gear as if it's slotted with every mod there is.[/quote]
Another one. Even if you unlock all of the upgrades, effort is still required to kill an enemy, unlike the Spectre Gear, let alone an upgraded Spectre Gear weapon.

[quote] At the end of the game, with everything researched and upgraded, all your equipment is maxed out in every way. [/quote]
But, as you said yourself, even as a completionist, it is very hard to ‘max out’ everything without NG+ or the import bonus. So, no.

[quote]They are God-modded items essentially, just like a God-modded sword made by a modder for Dragon Age, NWN or Oblivion would be. In an RPG there should be top tier items and/or ways to upgrade your stuff, but you should always have to make a choice between A or B or C when doing it. With ME2's system at the end you just have every item with upgrades A and B and C and beyond all the way to Z. It makes the whole system linear and broken, takes away real choice and customisation and doesn't really engage the player at all because it's just so automated and impersonal. My weapons are going to be the same as every other Mass Effect 2 player at the end of the game pretty much because I can have my cake and eat it too, and so can they.[/quote]
In this paragraph, you are just stating things which you have kept saying again, while still assuming that maxing out everything is ‘normal’.

[quote] So you didn't have to make sure you had a tech-based character with you
in ME1 if you weren't tech-based yourself so you could
open/unlock/hack/decrypt things then?[/quote]
I do hope that you consider unlocking crates a minor element of the Mass Effect 1, otherwise, there seems to be a problem with the game.

So, let me make this clear.
Engineers are supposed to be nothing but crate-opener experts? Fabulous.

[quote] In either case, when you narrow down an RPG to only focus on combat like that, you basically reduce it to just being a bunch of powers and that's it. The whole point of RPGs and classes when it comes to builds is to have various skills to deal with various situations and circumstances. ME2 reduces it to just one type of skill and one type of sitation or circumstance: combat.
[quote]That's it. If you're going to do that, you may as well just create the game like one of those old shoot-em ups where you earn credits and spend it on giving your ship new abilites and weapons at the end of each stage, because that's basically what it's become now.[/quote]
“Mass Effect 2 is basically a shoot-em up now”
Credibility lost completely.

Unless you have never played a shoot’em up before, please don’t make such ridiculous statements.
Focusing powers on combat has nothing to do with dumbing the game down, or even worse, comparing to a shoot-em up.

Just because these forums has a tendency of allowing comments like
‘omg it’s only a dummed daun shooter now you only preas speiss, how is that an ar pee gee’ it doesn’t mean you can get away with such hyperbols.

If you want a rational argument, a prerequisite would be to be ration yourself.

[quote] when you narrow down an RPG[/quote]
Hmm. You mean restrict an RPG?

[quote] I'm not intending to insult, it's just that it's so frustrating trying to communicate things to you when you either seem to just not get it or are stubbornly adamant that restrictions aren't necessary when they are.[/quote]
Considering that I am replying to your arguments and posing questions in order to advance the debate, you might want to consider the possibility that you are in some cases, wrong.
If you come in a debate thinking that you are completely right and what you think is a fact, there is no way the debate is going to end well.

[quote] It's about training. A Soldier is a pure, military fighter... a marine basically, who concentrates on combat and weapons directly. A biotic specialises in using their biotics more than anything, and a tech-based class specialises in tech. While everybody in the armed forces can fire a weapon, not all of them have extensive combat training and know how you use all the weapons. The same would apply to the Alliance military. A biotic Shepard would have spent more time honing their biotic skills than using more advanced weapons, and the same goes for a tech-expert. There's no real reason they can't, but they probably wouldn't have. Beyond that, it just balances the classes better to have the restrictions in place, IMO.[/quote]
Well, as I said, lore-wise, no weapon is directly associated to a specific class.
Now, of course, soldiers should be encouraged to use weapons more often, whereas the rest of the classes will have to invest in powers.

The power ‘upgrade’ part seems to imply that powers will be more important and powerful. The set list itself, allows for different combinations which will lead to more builds, so if done right, I don’t see how it is a negative feature.

[quote] Too much freedom is game-breaking though. RPGs offer more options overall than most other types of games, but they also close off more as well, and limit them. Again, classes are defined by their skills. If anybody can have those skills and has pure freedom to just pick from the whole selection then the skills that once-defined those classes no longer do and are no longer special. RPGs are about offering great freedom and choice, but in order to have choice you need to be able to cut off other options when choices are made, otherwise it's not really choice at all. You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too in a good RPG, not in the right areas. If you're a Soldier then you have to accept that you can't have biotic or tech skills, and visa versa. [/quote]
Too much freedom? What do you mean too much? If you can’t god-mod how can any additional freedom be bad? And how is a class having unique skills restricting the rest of the classes? It’s not a restriction, it’s an addition!

[quote] , but they also close off more as well, and limit them[/quote]
Like?

[quote] That may be, but if you put oranges in it it ceases to be an apple basket and just becomes a fruit basket instead. And that's the issue here: restrictions are needed to define what something is. A Soldier may not technically cease to be a Soldier if another class has his skills, but he certainly ceases to be special, defined and unique any more. An RPG needs a whole bunch of different kinds of fruit baskets to work by restricting the fruit, otherwise instead of having "apple baskets" and "orange baskets" etc. you just have fruit baskets. Freedom and customisation is pointless when there are no limits. Again, when everybody can be special, nobody can.[/quote]
You are begging the question.
Nobody suggested putting oranges in an apple basket.
An apple basket would be just another basket, if it didn’t hold apples. The apple basket shares some basic elements with the orange basket.
They are both made of, let’s say wood, and have the ability to hold objects.
Why they are not ordinary baskets? Because they hold apples, or oranges.

Saying that an orange basket is an orange basket because it doesn’t include all of the hundred other fruit that it could hold is absurd as a concept.

A black car is black because it’s colour is black, not because it isn’t white, blue or red.

[quote] No. Skills are not binary or static. RPGs are about progression and experience. The more you do something, the better you get at it, and this is often reflected in RPGs by you investing points in some manner to improve the skill. Skills should also be restricted to those who suit them and not just be handed around anywhere. Allowing anybody with no training to just become a tech expert is no better than just letting a non-biotic have a biotic power for no real reason except "they can." Again, restrictions need to be put in place, and these restrictions help define the classes. Singularity doesn't make an Adept special or unique if every class can have it, and being able to use passive tech abilities is no longer special when anybody can do it and it's reduced to not even being a skill at all.[/quote]
As I said, it’s understandable why only a tech would be able to let’s say for example, tofix a skycar.
It is not understandable, why players themselves, once they are experts should be unable to progress in their own learning curve, instead of a skill point curve.

Think about it.
I am awful at shooting weapons because I am not experienced enough with them.
So, what do I do? Practice more and become better? Yeah, that makes sense doesn’t it?

Well, RPGs don’t seem to like that. If you earn XP by killing enemies in hand-to-hand combat and assign the XP on the shooting skill you somehow are better at shooting. How does that make sense?

[quote] Again, too much freedom without restrictions and boundaries does break the game. I've explained this countless times already. This is getting tiresome.[/quote]
As have, I.
How does it break the game? As long as you don’t god-mod, how exactly does the game break?

[quote]Which is exactly how Mass Effect started with the original game, funnily enough.[/quote]
I thought that the ME trilogy games were hybrids, but ME1 just failed at the particular element?

[quote] In either case, that's not exactly what I meant. What I meant is that the shooter factors need to gel with and work in with the RPG ones and be part of them, rather than be loosely connected and isolated.[/quote]
No. This is exactly what the issue is.
The shooter elements must not be consumed by the RPG elements, as much as the RPG elements must not be consumed by the shooter elements.

When I shoot, I shoot.
When I roleplay, I roleplay. End of story.

Imagine adding RPG elements in the shooting part or shooter elements in the roleplaying part.

[quote] If by this point you can't see why they're not, I give up. [/quote]
But they do tend to be opposites!
Something shallow is something with very small depth, therefore with very limited space.

[Terror_K]

It's pretty damn clear to me that this is all just a waste of my time (as I suspected) and it's not worth debating this with you, Phaedon. If you don't get it by now, you just never will. I'm not describing rocket science here, and despite repeating myself several times in extremely simple manners you either just miss the point or you're clearly too stuck in your own biases to even properly attempt to understand, and it's getting beyond frustrating. I'm done with this "debate" if you can even call it that, because if I take this any further it'll just have me repeating myself again and not getting through or saying something that'll probably get me banned.

Modifié par Terror_K, 12 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...

It's pretty damn clear to me that this is all just a waste of my time (as I suspected) and it's not worth debating this with you, Phaedon. If you don't get it by now, you just never will. I'm not describing rocket science here, and despite repeating myself several times in extremely simple manners you either just miss the point or you're clearly too stuck in your own biases to even properly attempt to understand, and it's getting beyond frustrating. I'm done with this "debate" if you can even call it that, because if I take this any further it'll just have me repeating myself again and not getting through or saying something that'll probably get me banned.

No offence, but this is not the first time you have done this.
You seem like an interesting poster, so why don't you ever continue these debates past the third post? This is not a 'battle', this is a 'debate', from which a consensus could be made. For example, the passive skills on the squadmates are something which I didn't consider before. I believe that a passive skill should not be there for Shepard though.
The only comment I have to make, and believe me when I say that I don't mean this is in an offensive tone is, that entering a debate with the attitude of 'explaining how others are wrong' is not ideal.

[Avissel]

yay to all.


Time to start planning for my traditonal "Bioware release day"

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

No offence, but this is not the first time you have done this.
You seem like an interesting poster, so why don't you ever continue these debates past the third post? This is not a 'battle', this is a 'debate', from which a consensus could be made. For example, the passive skills on the squadmates are something which I didn't consider before. I believe that a passive skill should not be there for Shepard though.
The only comment I have to make, and believe me when I say that I don't mean this is in an offensive tone is, that entering a debate with the attitude of 'explaining how others are wrong' is not ideal.

What do you mean "why don't you ever continue these debates past the third post?" The only other poster I've got frustrated and given up with is Lumikki regarding the Paragon/Renegade system and how well it roleplays, and that was for the same basic reason I'm giving up with you: it's all too clear it's a waste of time. In the past I used to debate and argue with dozens upon dozens of posts. Beyond that there's just been the odd time when some newbie comes in who can't be bothered to read the thread where I've already posted by arguments and I can't be stuffed going around in circles again and again and again.

There's just clearly no point "debating" with you because your posts too often miss the point entirely even after repeated explanations, you can't even seem to grasp simple concepts such as why RPGs need boundaries and restrictions as much as they need freedom, or you're just being stubborn and sometimes even hypocritical (e.g. you deem to love "freedom" in all forms yet fully support ammo mods becoming powers in ME2, something that restricts freedom).

[MassEffect762]

It's the shooter crowd Terror_K, they're young and easily pleased.