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[The Cannibal Factory]

So I decided to fire up Origins again, for a nostalgia trip, and sat back to watch the opening Prologue cutscene with Duncan. The first thing he says is:

The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men which brought the
darkspawn into our world. The mages had sought to usurp Heaven. But
instead, they destroyed it. They were cast out, twisted and cursed by
their own corruption. They returned as monsters, the first of the
darkspawn. They became a blight upon the lands, unstoppable and
relentless.

At which point, I went "whut?!" (I had forgotten all of that section, big time!)

Okay, it might be entirely Chantry propaganda. But if it isn't, that could surely cast interesting new light on Anders' subconscious motivations for trying to return freedom to Mages, considering how he's a Grey Warden and tainted.

His joining with Justice gave him more power than a normal Mage; maybe it turned him into something a lot closer to those powerful Mages of old. Which in turn caused the taint, inherited from the dark powers of those Mages, to push him towards taking the first steps needed to create a new Mage imperium.

I hope that makes sense. Had to get it out there.

Modifié par Lady Vengeance, 08 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[Kawamura]

I'd say that wanting freedom for a group of people is different than wanting freedom an ABSOLUTE POWER for a group of people.

Remember that Justice was interested in the injustice of mages before he decided to know Anders intimately.

[The Cannibal Factory]

Kawamura wrote...

I'd say that wanting freedom for a group of people is different than wanting freedom an ABSOLUTE POWER for a group of people.

Remember that Justice was interested in the injustice of mages before he decided to know Anders intimately.

I don't mean that Anders was intentionally trying to create a new Mage imperium. More that it was a subconcious push caused by the taint.

(And Justice was all too happy to help.)

[The Cannibal Factory]

Oops - double post. Ignore.

Modifié par Lady Vengeance, 08 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[whizzper134]

Besides that Justice isn't Justice anymore...he's Vengeance.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why didn't any of the other mage grey wardens abandon their oaths and try to reform the ancient Tevinter Imperium's magocracy?

[The Cannibal Factory]

They didn't have Justice/Vengeance (or similar spirit trapped outside of the Fade) egging them on...

[Eternal Phoenix]

"Stupid ****** mages trying to destroy Heaven!

i KILL THEM ALL! I KILL EVERYLAST 1 OF THOSE BLOOD SUCKING MAGES!!!"

Thus spoke The Knight Commander Cullen in DA3. There you go people. The first released dialogue from DA3.

Regarding the topic. I'm pretty sure it just means darkspawn. It'll be an interesting turn if these tainted creatures were actually Warden Mages.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 09 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Lady Vengeance wrote...

They didn't have Justice/Vengeance (or similar spirit trapped outside of the Fade) egging them on...

So then is it the taint or the spirit that is the cause?

[Maria Caliban]

She's suggesting that it's both.

[Addai]

Well, it's an interesting question. I hadn't considered how the taint might affect/ interact with Justice. Wynne seems to hold her liquor better than Anders, so maybe that is one reason why.

[Rabies]

The taint isn't something that interacts with your mind in the way you're thinking. The Joining offers the participant immunity to the worst effects of the taint. In particular the becoming a ghoul or immediately dying to it.

I actually think, especially after the events of Dragon Age II, that this is mostly chantry propaganda - but with a seed of truth. I believe that the Tevinter Imperium WAS responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, but not in the way that the chantry proclaims. I think they metaphorically stepped into the Golden City and into the Maker's realm by attempting to create life...

We've already seen that they weren't adverse to experimenting on living beings. This is what brought about the mabari, and Fenris' lyrium markings. I think that that thaig you come across in the Deep Roads on Hawke's expedition is actually an old Tevinter Imperium temple or research facility. If you notice, that lyrium idol looks suspiciously like the Architect or some other manner of darkspawn.

I believe that the darkspawn were CREATED by some mages from the Imperium, probably using blood magic and the magic of their Old Gods to try and create life from nothing. It was an experiment that went horribly horribly wrong.

[rma2110]

I think the taint does corrupt Grey Wardens. Only it happens very very slowly. Over two decades or so depending on the person. That's why they have 'The Calling' where they go to get themselves killed before they become Darkspawn or something like the Architect. The whole thing is kind of depressing.

I don't think the taint had any effect on Anders at all. It was the spirit of Justice who then became Vengeance that changed Anders. I think Justice became corrupted y Ander's hate and desire and became a demon.

As for the darkspawn. I think the mages were trying to become Old Gods themselves and used the blood of an Old God to experiment on themselves or others. Somehow this lead to corruption and the taint. Maybe the blood of the Old Gods was corrupted by human desires just like spirits? Anyway, there has to be a reason darkspawn hear the call of the old gods. I think it's in the blood.

[Tashash]

Rabies wrote...

The taint isn't something that interacts with your mind in the way you're thinking. The Joining offers the participant immunity to the worst effects of the taint. In particular the becoming a ghoul or immediately dying to it.

I actually think, especially after the events of Dragon Age II, that this is mostly chantry propaganda - but with a seed of truth. I believe that the Tevinter Imperium WAS responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, but not in the way that the chantry proclaims. I think they metaphorically stepped into the Golden City and into the Maker's realm by attempting to create life...

We've already seen that they weren't adverse to experimenting on living beings. This is what brought about the mabari, and Fenris' lyrium markings. I think that that thaig you come across in the Deep Roads on Hawke's expedition is actually an old Tevinter Imperium temple or research facility. If you notice, that lyrium idol looks suspiciously like the Architect or some other manner of darkspawn.

I believe that the darkspawn were CREATED by some mages from the Imperium, probably using blood magic and the magic of their Old Gods to try and create life from nothing. It was an experiment that went horribly horribly wrong.

Well...Hell...That does make sense....And Bartrand does comment on there being "No statues of Paragons" and "Not recognising any of these symbols." It's possible that it wasn't a thaig (Dwarven city) at all.

[Rabies]

Exactly. I also think that Andraste might have actually just been a supremely powerful mage. I doubt the existence of an all mighty Maker.

[Heidenreich]

I think you guys are overthinking this.

Anders is bitter because he was torn away from his family at 12 for being a mage, locked up in a tower, told he could never get married or have a family or be a normal person.. that he was cursed witht he makers hatred over and over.

Justice is Justice, and see's how wrong it is to force someone into Effective servitude just for being born a mage, which is no fault of anyones.

When their powers of Righteousness and Bitterness combined, they became captain pla...er.. I mean Janders.


Less over-thinking, more playing the game.

[Heidenreich]

Rabies wrote...

Exactly. I also think that Andraste might have actually just been a supremely powerful mage. I doubt the existence of an all mighty Maker.

Also leave your atheism out of computer games. ;p

The maker isn't the all powerful super supreme being, he's Fan'Harel. I'm telling you. Trickster god locks up other gods and tells man "look i'm the only one, see? worship me!... kek."

*nod*

[elenilote]

Heidenreich wrote...

I think you guys are overthinking this.

.....

Less over-thinking, more playing the game.

My thoughts exactly. 

[BigCrash]

Heidenreich wrote...


The maker isn't the all powerful super supreme being, he's Fan'Harel. I'm telling you. Trickster god locks up other gods and tells man "look i'm the only one, see? worship me!... kek."

*nod*

but we are told that the dragons buried deep beneath are the "old gods" which were revered not by the dalish, but by the tevinter empirium.

[Heidenreich]

BigCrash wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...


The maker isn't the all powerful super supreme being, he's Fan'Harel. I'm telling you. Trickster god locks up other gods and tells man "look i'm the only one, see? worship me!... kek."

*nod*

but we are told that the dragons buried deep beneath are the "old gods" which were revered not by the dalish, but by the tevinter empirium.

Dailish.. or effectively, the elves, came first. They have a dozen or more good and bad gods that Fan'Harel locked up! Could some of those not be the 9 dragon gods the tevinters worshiped?

THE POT OF TROOROROOL GOD THICKENS:devil:

[Rabies]

Pffft. This is why I love siding with the werewolves. In the words of Fenris...

"This is why nobody takes the Dalish seriously."

[The Cannibal Factory]

Rabies wrote...

The taint isn't something that interacts with your mind in the way you're thinking. The Joining offers the participant immunity to the worst effects of the taint. In particular the becoming a ghoul or immediately dying to it.

I actually think, especially after the events of Dragon Age II, that this is mostly chantry propaganda - but with a seed of truth. I believe that the Tevinter Imperium WAS responsible for the creation of the darkspawn, but not in the way that the chantry proclaims. I think they metaphorically stepped into the Golden City and into the Maker's realm by attempting to create life...

We've already seen that they weren't adverse to experimenting on living beings. This is what brought about the mabari, and Fenris' lyrium markings. I think that that thaig you come across in the Deep Roads on Hawke's expedition is actually an old Tevinter Imperium temple or research facility. If you notice, that lyrium idol looks suspiciously like the Architect or some other manner of darkspawn.

I believe that the darkspawn were CREATED by some mages from the Imperium, probably using blood magic and the magic of their Old Gods to try and create life from nothing. It was an experiment that went horribly horribly wrong.

Oo I love the idea of the Deep Roads expedition actually uncovering an ancient Magister testing ground! It would explain the Profane, and why they can be posessed by demons despite being made of rock. And, well, EVERYTHING about it.

Anyway, I think I started my topic thread poorly in terms of explaning myself! The Mages/Darkspawn/Anders theory I meant to test out was basically as follows, in timeline form:

1) Incredibly powerful Mages make it to the Golden City in the Fade, and turn it into the tainted Black City. They return as the first darkspawn, tainted by this Fade-connection.

2) Fastforwards and we have Grey Wardens, including lots of garden variety Mages who aren't affected by the taint in any special way

3) A freak magical accident traps a very powerful Spirit of Justice outside of the Fade, severing him from it in a way which prevents him from returning and rendering him very unique (spirits don't normally leave the Fade ever and who's to say what power they potentially weild)

4) Happy-go-lucky and slightly dumb Grey Warden Mage Anders joins with Justice

5) Boom... just as the first Mages found a way into the Fade, Anders becomes unconsciously powerful enough to "bring the Fade into our world" - joining with such a unique spirit actually makes him far more powerful than he even knows

6) The taint comes into play somehow in influencing his revolution to free all Mages, as the little bit of darkspawn in him turns Justice into Vengeance and turns them into a killer machine in pursuit of what, eventually, could be a second Magister imperium breaching the Fade.


One extra question is: what on earth was in that Chantry bomb?? It's well established that it takes a powder keg full of lyrium or blood magic for huge massive effects in the Dragon Age universe. The Chantry seemed to completely rise up and get decimated molecule by molecule in a massive magical implosion - a few bits of sewer crap and bones wouldn't be able to accomplish such a feat, and nor would Anders use blood magic.... so what the heck kind of power did he harness to do that? (Something very old, and Fade-related, is my theory).

Yes, I'm totally overthinking all of this. I just like to analyse and theorise this stuff. It's interesting.

[Crystalgazer]

^ I'm pretty sure Anders made gunpowder - he collected dragonstone (sulfur), sela petrae (salt petre) and combined with potash (if I remember correctly) you have the old recipe for gunpowder, which even in our world would be sufficient to cause huge explosions. I'm thinking he combined it with some sort of magic to give it an extra kick.

I think that Rabies is probably spot-on; the taint doesn't interact with possession at all, and that the Chantry has just compounded how corrupt and untrustworthy they are in DA2, which throws the whole 'Darkspawn are corrupted Magisters' fable into doubt, especially considering it's yet another justification for subjugating mages. There's probably more to it. Also, regarding Andraste being a mage; I'm pretty sure one of the books you give Wynne as a gift supposedly covers that exact subject, can't remember it's name though.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not an expert on chemistry but I'm pretty sure gunpowder doesn't explode like that.