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[AlexXIV]

So TIM is indoctrinated and Cerberus basically serves for the Reapers to test Shepard as an exemplary human so they can see if humans are a worthy race for the Reaper legacy ... no wonder he was so upset that my Shep blew up the base.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 12:53 .

[charmingcharlie]

I don't know if this idea has been posted but here is my take on things.  I believe that TIM no longer feels the Reapers can be beaten or at the very least if the Reapers are beaten humanity will be at a disadvantage after the war.  With this in mind I can see TIM trying to turn a negative into a positive.

At the end of ME 2 TIM clearly states that "strength for Cerberus is strength for all humanity".  He clearly believes that as long as Cerberus keeps going Humanity keeps going.  He has certainly shown in the past that he is not against  sacrificing a great number of humans just to preserve Cerberus and Cerberus goals.

I believe that TIM has decided to let the Reapers win, not because he is indoctrinated but because at the end of it they will leave the galaxy empty of any sentient threat or competition for at least 50,000 years leaving Cerberus to dominate the galaxy.  To this end I reckon TIM has some sort of "ARK" project where he has chosen a select number of human specimens, hidden them away and TIM intends to join them and leave the Reapers to it.  This is a similar plan to what the Protheans did on Ilos.   Once the Reapers have finished, TIM and Cerberus can emerge from their hidden ARK take over the Citadel and go about totally unopposed and gather in strength.

If TIM now wants the Reapers to win (for the reasons I said) then he can't have good ole Shep screwing things up that is why he is trying to kill Shepard.

Modifié par charmingcharlie, 21 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Almostfaceman]

charmingcharlie wrote...

I don't know if this idea has been posted but here is my take on things.  I believe that TIM no longer feels the Reapers can be beaten or at the very least if the Reapers are beaten humanity will be at a disadvantage after the war.  With this in mind I can see TIM trying to turn a negative into a positive.

At the end of ME 2 TIM clearly states that "strength for Cerberus is strength for all humanity".  He clearly believes that as long as Cerberus keeps going Humanity keeps going.  He has certainly shown in the past that he is not against  sacrificing a great number of humans just to preserve Cerberus and Cerberus goals.

I believe that TIM has decided to let the Reapers win, not because he is indoctrinated but because at the end of it they will leave the galaxy empty of any sentient threat or competition for at least 50,000 years leaving Cerberus to dominate the galaxy.  To this end I reckon TIM has some sort of "ARK" project where he has chosen a select number of human specimens, hidden them away and TIM intends to join them and leave the Reapers to it.  This is a similar plan to what the Protheans did on Ilos.   Once the Reapers have finished, TIM and Cerberus can emerge from their hidden ARK take over the Citadel and go about totally unopposed and gather in strength.

To this end if TIM now wants the Reapers to win (for the reasons I said) then he can't have good ole Shep screwing things up that is why he is trying to kill Shepard.

Well if he's decided the Reapers are going to win anyway, why isn't he and his minions on his Ark flying away from the battle instead of messing around with Shep?  If he believes what he believes, then he will have decided Shep can't win.

[Baihu1983]

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

[GodWood]

Baihu1983 wrote...
So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

We don't know

[Naltair]

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

We have no information about this, we really don't know much about this situation; the why, the how... so I am just waiting.

Modifié par Naltair, 21 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[Almostfaceman]

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I don't think anyone - Paragon or Renegade "side's with TiM" at the end - I've seen both endings and both tell TiM that Shep is going to lead the war from that point.  In other words "I'm not working for you anymore TiM, you're working for me."

[charmingcharlie]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Well if he's decided the Reapers are going to win anyway, why isn't he and his minions on his Ark flying away from the battle instead of messing around with Shep?  If he believes what he believes, then he will have decided Shep can't win.

Like I said he either believes the Reapers will win or at the very least Shepard will defeat the Reapers but it will leave humanity in a very weak position.  If he believes the Reapers will win despite Shepards efforts then he could be after revenge before he toddles off to his Ark. 

If he believes that Shepard still might win the day but leave humanity in a weakened position then he will obviously want to stop Shepard from winning and interfering with the Reapers plans.

The hibernation plan has already been used by the Protheans and the only reason why it failed was down to the fact they underestimated how long it would take the Reapers to do their work.  TIM will know all this and it wouldn't be hard to modify the Prothean Ilos plan to ensure it succeeds this time for Cerberus.

[aDuck]

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I'm thinking it might.  If you hand the base over to TIM, and are genually helping him without a grudge, you fight some other group instead of Cerberus (the Alliance for example).  If you pissed off TIM, then your in for some Cerberus whacking fun

Would definately make different playthroughs very nice and easy to replay.

[Avissel]

aDuck wrote...

I'm thinking it might.  If you hand the base over to TIM, and are genually helping him without a grudge, you fight some other group instead of Cerberus (the Alliance for example).  If you pissed off TIM, then your in for some Cerberus whacking fun

Would definately make different playthroughs very nice and easy to replay.

Yeah but it would require building two totally seperate plot lines, so probably wont happen.

I'm sure they will come up with some reason to explain it.

[Lvl20DM]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I don't think anyone - Paragon or Renegade "side's with TiM" at the end - I've seen both endings and both tell TiM that Shep is going to lead the war from that point.  In other words "I'm not working for you anymore TiM, you're working for me."

That was always my take on it. When I first played through with a Renegade character, I expected Shep to be more pro-Cerberus, but he really wasn't. Sometimes the Renegade responses are more anti-Cerberus than the Paragon ones. In the end, Shep quits taking orders from the Illusive Man no matter how you handle the Collector Base.

My guess is that Cerberus starts gunning for Shep and we will have no idea why, really. Those Shep's that destroyed the base will think TIM is out for revenge; those that saved the base will just be confused (and angry). But we won't really know - it's clearly meant to be an important plot-point, or they'd have told us already (or, at least, said they were going to tell us before the game came out).

While TIM could be indoctrinated, I think a few other possibilities would be more interesting. One is that TIM loses control of Cerberus somehow, and the organization is being directed by the Reapers or an Indoctrinated person or persons. Another is that TIM believes that Shep's plan is actually the wrong one - that stopping Shep is the only way to actually beat the Reapers. Another possibility is that TIM comes to sympathize with the ultimate goals of the Reapers without being Indoctrinated. We don't really know why the Reapers do what they do yet, but maybe TIM finds out, and decides it is best for humanity to be ascended to a "higher form".

[CroGamer002]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I don't think anyone - Paragon or Renegade "side's with TiM" at the end - I've seen both endings and both tell TiM that Shep is going to lead the war from that point.  In other words "I'm not working for you anymore TiM, you're working for me."

If you keep CB, Hackett will confirm you're still working with Cerberus.

[Almostfaceman]

charmingcharlie wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
Well if he's decided the Reapers are going to win anyway, why isn't he and his minions on his Ark flying away from the battle instead of messing around with Shep?  If he believes what he believes, then he will have decided Shep can't win.

Like I said he either believes the Reapers will win or at the very least Shepard will defeat the Reapers but it will leave humanity in a very weak position.  If he believes the Reapers will win despite Shepards efforts then he could be after revenge before he toddles off to his Ark. 

If he believes that Shepard still might win the day but leave humanity in a weakened position then he will obviously want to stop Shepard from winning and interfering with the Reapers plans.

The hibernation plan has already been used by the Protheans and the only reason why it failed was down to the fact they underestimated how long it would take the Reapers to do their work.  TIM will know all this and it wouldn't be hard to modify the Prothean Ilos plan to ensure it succeeds this time for Cerberus.

I don't know, seems a bit convoluted to me, but hey who knows at this point.

[Almostfaceman]

Mesina2 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I don't think anyone - Paragon or Renegade "side's with TiM" at the end - I've seen both endings and both tell TiM that Shep is going to lead the war from that point.  In other words "I'm not working for you anymore TiM, you're working for me."

If you keep CB, Hackett will confirm you're still working with Cerberus.

Right, with, not for.  I can see a Renegade Shep still agreeing with TiM on certain matters and using TiM as an intel resource - but he's not going to take orders from TiM anymore  At least, that's what he says.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 21 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[Someone With Mass]

Maybe one of the Cerberus cells didn't get the memo.

[nelly21]

I don't understand where anyone got the sense that we had the choice to remain with Cerberus. With the two Shepards I had keep the base (my human supremecist adept and my do whatever is necessary soldier), the final renegade dialogue makes it very clear that Shep isn't taking any more orders from Illusive Man. TIM doesn't strike me like the type who deals well with insubordination.

I love Cerberus. I think they are an intriguing antagonist and the Illusive Man is awesome. But if you really thought that he was going to be anything other than an enemy, you were destined to be disappointed. I loved the time my Shepards spent with Cerberus. But the galaxy ain't big enough for Shep and TIM.

Would be awesome if Shep could take over Cerberus after TIM is gone and become the new Illusive Man. I would scream like a girl at a Bieber concert.

[Savber100]

One thing we need to get straight here.

Cerberus is a back-stabbing scumbag organization led by a man who will do anything to achieve success. Something is in the Collector's Base that is vital for human survival and he's wiling to spend trillions of credits to obtain it. Now assuming he has it, why do does the Illusive Man want to destroy his most useful tool (Shepard?) Simply because he's up to something that might earn the ire of Commander Shepard regardless of Paragon and Renegade. Shepard has done his or her job in obtaining the mysterious base and is now uncontrollable which will prove to a detraction to Cerberus. Shepard has the charisma and power to be the most viable threat to TIM position and at the end it was clear that Shepard was done taking orders from TIM.

Modifié par Savber100, 21 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[KingDan97]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Perhaps you can further elaborate on your first point? I see your conclusion that proximity has a connection and the idea that once they arrive, it could send him loopy. What I am missing is the premise that should be coming before it. Why is it necessarily logical that because The Illusive Man hears whispers, proximity must have something to do with this? In Evolution, people who directly touch that artifact get indoctrinated regardless of proximity. It appears to me that the whispers has more to do with the fact that he got second-hand exposure as opposed to direct exposure.

Your evidence does indeed suggest that TIM has a fascination with the Reapers because of his exposure and knows as much as he does because of this exposure as well. What I don't think your evidence clearly suggests is an attachment to proximity. Many Turians were indoctrinated in the Evolution comic regardless of proximity to a Reaper. Likewise, proximity did not effect the Reaper's ability to indoctrinate the Collector General or Paul Grayson. It appears to me that The Illusive Man's ability to hear their whispers has more to do with the fact that he didn't actually touch the device while everyone else did.

I am of the theory that The Illusive Man is nothing more than the Reaper-version of Shepard. Instead of having visions of the Protheans, the Illusive Man has visions of the Reapers and probably knows what he does about them because of this relationship. This is very much similar to how Shepard learned the Prothean Cypher as a result of the visions he had of their kind. This relationship seems all the more obvious to me as a result of Issue #4 where the Illusive Man is able to figure out the entire purpose of the Arca Monolith, the history of it, and the reason why the Turians were protecting it as a result of just being locked in a cell for what seems like a couple of days. Even those Turians who had been studying the artifact weren't able to figure out what TIM could and some of them had probably been working on that thing for years.

I also wonder whether or not this possible relationship between the Reapers and The Illusive Man works only one way. In the Redemption series, the Collectors didn't appear to know that The Illusive Man was going to bring Shepard back. Likewise, they also didn't appear to have prior knowledge that Shepard's plan was to fight them on their own turf. In Retribution, indoctrination appears to mean that the Reapers are able to go right through their victims memory to get any useful information out of them. Seeing as how they could not figure out this information from the Illusive Man in Mass Effect 2, it appears to me that the relationship between the two of them is kind of one-sided in TIM's favor. If this is the case, the Illusive Man very well might be one of the most important players in stopping them, if not the most important.

See my first point is based on the fact that Sovvie was active, in the Galaxy. He wasn't compelled to research the Rachni or the Thorian in the same way Saren was, more that he got light vibes that led him to research them. He may not have even understood why he was researching them, because unlike Saren his connection was through the artifact.

I guess where my idea diverges from the norm is that Sovvie was the one sending out the whispers, not the artifact. The husk guards were being compelled to remain close to that which they viewed as the source but in reality it was the fact that a living Reaper was within the galaxy at the time. They were essentially picking up on Sovvie's dreams, because he was in the Galaxy.

Then when Sovvie was destroyed the whispers actually went lower than they were when he was dormant because the only reaper in the galaxy, and by extention in range of the FTL comm buoys was the Derelict reaper in the brown dwarf. This gave him a period of relative clarity because not only was there only one reaper in the galaxy(half the whispers from when he first touched the artifact) but that one was also dormant. It meant that he was getting no real signals aside from general reaper intent.

But as the reapers approach the galaxy and come in range of the first comm buoys they would start sending out whispers and after only dealing with the intentless whispers of one reaper for ME2 he would be violently driven by the calls of thousands of reapers, all out for Shepard's blood.

As for the situations surrounding Greyson and the General. The way I saw it so far as they were concerned was that the General was genetically created to pick up Harbinger, and Harbinger alone at any distance. They were his troops and they were constructed by him. Greyson on the other hand was implanted not with technology meant to indoctrinate, but actual parts of a reaper. Their mutation in his cells essentially made him a Human Reaper, which meant he had a direct line to the collective. Neither of them were traditionally indoctrinated.

So far as why the Collectors might not have known of TIM's intents, we don't fully know how indoctrination even works so it could be that normal indoctrination wouldn't phone home.

[FobManX]

My guess is...

if you destroyed the base, TIM will feel betrayed and decides Shep doesn't have the cojones to save the galaxy, so he figures he'll take him out(maybe insert himself/Cerberus into a leadership position).

if you perserve the base perhaps TIM gets indoctrinated and orders Cerberus to take Shep out.

Should be interesting either way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Baihu1983 wrote...

So will this storyline change if you sided with him at the end of ME2?

I don't think anyone - Paragon or Renegade "side's with TiM" at the end - I've seen both endings and both tell TiM that Shep is going to lead the war from that point.  In other words "I'm not working for you anymore TiM, you're working for me."

If you keep CB, Hackett will confirm you're still working with Cerberus.

Or at least that the Alliance considers you as still working with Cerberus.

Whether you are or not, however, is a different matter.

[Rekkampum]

Khayness wrote...

It's gonna be handwaved by something introduced in the 4th Evolution issue!

Either that or the next ME novel.

[88mphSlayer]

AlexXIV wrote...

So TIM is indoctrinated and Cerberus basically serves for the Reapers to test Shepard as an exemplary human so they can see if humans are a worthy race for the Reaper legacy ... no wonder he was so upset that my Shep blew up the base.

isn't it too late to be testing humanity after the reapers already started making a human reaper?

[88mphSlayer]

charmingcharlie wrote...

I don't know if this idea has been posted but here is my take on things.  I believe that TIM no longer feels the Reapers can be beaten or at the very least if the Reapers are beaten humanity will be at a disadvantage after the war.  With this in mind I can see TIM trying to turn a negative into a positive.

At the end of ME 2 TIM clearly states that "strength for Cerberus is strength for all humanity".  He clearly believes that as long as Cerberus keeps going Humanity keeps going.  He has certainly shown in the past that he is not against  sacrificing a great number of humans just to preserve Cerberus and Cerberus goals.

I believe that TIM has decided to let the Reapers win, not because he is indoctrinated but because at the end of it they will leave the galaxy empty of any sentient threat or competition for at least 50,000 years leaving Cerberus to dominate the galaxy.  To this end I reckon TIM has some sort of "ARK" project where he has chosen a select number of human specimens, hidden them away and TIM intends to join them and leave the Reapers to it.  This is a similar plan to what the Protheans did on Ilos.   Once the Reapers have finished, TIM and Cerberus can emerge from their hidden ARK take over the Citadel and go about totally unopposed and gather in strength.

If TIM now wants the Reapers to win (for the reasons I said) then he can't have good ole Shep screwing things up that is why he is trying to kill Shepard.

there's nothing preventing Cerberus from doing that anyways without killing Shepard, Shepard could literally use the shadow broker info network to out all of Cerberus and this ark project would still likely be a secret

if you believe the reapers are going to win anyways that means you believe Shepard is going to die at some point which is again - redundant

if you want the reapers to wipe out the aliens so the galaxy can be all human just transmit all info you have on alien bases of power to the reapers, very little Shepard could do about that - again redundant

literally i think the best possible explanation would be that Shepard chooses a path that pits him/her against Cerberus or the path is simply forced on us for amoral reasons

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 21 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[charmingcharlie]

88mphSlayer wrote...

there's nothing preventing Cerberus from doing that anyways without killing Shepard, Shepard could literally use the shadow broker info network to out all of Cerberus and this ark project would still likely be a secret

As I said if TIM believes that Cerberus's best interest is served in letting the Reapers win (ie wiping out all life and leaving the galaxy up for grabs from a hidden Cerberus Ark) then he will want to ensure that Shepard does not some how foil the Reapers which is why he wants to kill Shepard.

This is all speculation on my part, we obviously won't know till we play Mass Effect 3.  I just hope they don't go the way of indoctrination.  I kinda like the idea that TIM is willing sacrificing Earth and the bulk of humanity so he can achieve some long term Cerberus goal.

[Saaziel]

I'd wager it has something to do with Shepard's mind , I.E. his/her affinity with the Prothean beacon & Cipher.

The Protheans seemed to be able to share , to a degree, conscious thoughts & experience through the beacon system, much like a rudimentary "Geth-like" form of communication. The Reapers can be abridged as the collective will of a specie made manifest. It wouldn't be surprising then, to see both the Protheans & the Geth be incompatible with the Reaper form. Probably why the Protheans were fashioned into Collectors thereafter and why no Geth "Cyber-goo" can be transformed/downloaded into a Reaper body (Though this topic might be better explored somewhere else).

That said Shepard seems to be able to bridge both the collective and the individualistic side of a specie. This, along with destroying Sovereign , is probably why Harbinger wanted to acquire Shepard's corpse. TIM originally got Shepard's corpse to deny it to his perceived enemy, thereafter he deduced that Shepard himself was a weapon against the Reaper and this prompted his resurrection.

Having kept the base; TIM research the base and finds "some other use" for Shepard (I can't speculate too much here) Obviously, this use is detrimental to Shepard. Having blown up the base , he's ... Upset , to say the least.

My theory .

P.S. I had too much coffee , sorry for the ramblings.

Modifié par Saaziel, 21 avril 2011 - 11:21 .