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[Malanek]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think this, or something like this, is the most interesting theory. I think the Reapers will cut a deal with TIM. In return for capturing Shepard they will give him a few remote systems and a small percentage of humans to be left alive to populate them. Then the relays will be destroyed sealing those systems off from the rest of the galaxy.

As Marta pointed out, I think the Illusive Man is the wrong character for this. Given what I've read of the Manifesto from the most recent comic, TIM doesn't appear to be content with the idea that humanity can just sit in a group of systems and not be part of the bigger galaxy that is out there. Of course, this is due to the fact that TIM believes that humanity should "take it's rightful place in the stars."

The Illusive man will do whatever, I repeat whatever, it takes for for humanity to survive and prosper. If he sees how many reapers turn up and believes the war cannot be won, he will sacrifice shepard, the rest of the galaxies races and a large chunk of humanity without any moral compunction at all. He sees himself as a master strategist and negotiator.

DarkSeraphym wrote...
Likewise, the Reapers would never cut this deal anyway. The whole point of the Relays was to make certain that all species that found them would develop along the paths they desire so that they would not become too advanced. If they left TIM and a small bunch of humans to thrive in a system with no way for them to be monitored, the Reapers could eventually have a huge problem on their hands in the future.

That's debatable but also completely irrelevant. Whether or not the reapers intend to honour the deal is unimportant, under my theory all that matters is that TIM believes they will. They would sell it something like this. We are unstoppable and victory is inevitable but Shepard is causing extensive damage. He has already destroyed Sovereign wiping out 50,000 years of evolution in a heartbeat. Say he destorys another four or five reapers another 200,000+ years of evolution and accumulated culture gone. The reapers would really want shepard at that point and the argument they present would be compelling.

DarkSeraphym wrote...
If anything, I think TIM would be the character least likely to sell out the Reapers. They are just another race that is ultimately in the way of human dominance and because they are not comfortable with that role for humanity, they will have to be crushed under our heel. I don't doubt for a second that if TIM could find a way to reliably control them, he would do so. However, I could not see him simply giving into their demands since they are little more than a much larger obstacle that humanity will have to destroy in order to be the dominant force in the galaxy.

TIM is a pragmatic. If he sees a thousand reapers turn up he will take whatever he believes is the best outcome. He's not stupid and will not try to "crush a thousand reapers under his heel".

[88mphSlayer]

charmingcharlie wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

there's nothing preventing Cerberus from doing that anyways without killing Shepard, Shepard could literally use the shadow broker info network to out all of Cerberus and this ark project would still likely be a secret

As I said if TIM believes that Cerberus's best interest is served in letting the Reapers win (ie wiping out all life and leaving the galaxy up for grabs from a hidden Cerberus Ark) then he will want to ensure that Shepard does not some how foil the Reapers which is why he wants to kill Shepard.

This is all speculation on my part, we obviously won't know till we play Mass Effect 3.  I just hope they don't go the way of indoctrination.  I kinda like the idea that TIM is willing sacrificing Earth and the bulk of humanity so he can achieve some long term Cerberus goal.

of course i still think it'd be more plausible for somebody like TIM to put a bomb in Shepard's head when they rebuilt him (without the knowledge of Miranda or Jacob obviously) for this very very possible future scenario that TIM seems to have put a lot of planning into

that is to say, it's amateurish if your backup plan is a last ditch attempt to fix your lack of a backup plan

[Cancer Puppet]

Shepard stole TIM's ultimate flapjack recipe. That is why Cerberus are after Shepard. How hard is this to figure out? Seriously.

[aDuck]

Interesting... if you destroy the CB, Jacob says that "Cerberus is after your tail". Anyone know what he says about Cerberus if you hand over the CB?

[didymos1120]

aDuck wrote...

Interesting... if you destroy the CB, Jacob says that "Cerberus is after your tail". Anyone know what he says about Cerberus if you hand over the CB?

"Glad we gave the Collectors what they deserved, Shepard. Can't say I like handing their assets over to the Illusive Man, but at least humanity is in the clear. For now, anyway. The Collectors aren't the end of it. Can't be."

[DarkSeraphym]

Malanek999 wrote...

The Illusive man will do whatever, I repeat whatever, it takes for for humanity to survive and prosper. If he sees how many reapers turn up and believes the war cannot be won, he will sacrifice shepard, the rest of the galaxies races and a large chunk of humanity without any moral compunction at all. He sees himself as a master strategist and negotiator.

Cerberus also stands for the dominance of humanity in the galaxy. Technically speaking, humanity is already surviving/prospering under the currect circumstances but that does not appear to be good enough for The Illusive Man. He suggests that we should be running the show. He suggests that we should be the dominant force in the galaxy. He already wasn't comfortable with the fact that humanity had originally submitted itself to the authority of the Council. Surrendering to the Reapers and then moving onto a colony in some remote region of the galaxy with Reaper overlords watching over them is anything but putting humanity in a position of dominance.

I got the vibe from The Illusive Man that he directly correlates prosperity and survival with dominance anyway. Perhaps I was the only one.

Malanek999 wrote...

That's debatable but also completely irrelevant. Whether or not the reapers intend to honour the deal is unimportant, under my theory all that matters is that TIM believes they will. They would sell it something like this. We are unstoppable and victory is inevitable but Shepard is causing extensive damage. He has already destroyed Sovereign wiping out 50,000 years of evolution in a heartbeat. Say he destorys another four or five reapers another 200,000+ years of evolution and accumulated culture gone. The reapers would really want shepard at that point and the argument they present would be compelling.

No, it is relevant because it helps determines whether or not the Illusive Man has a reason to believe them. Agreements work under the theory that there are several factors that keep them binding: 1. an emotional response that you would not want to harm someone else, especially if they gave you what you wanted but you did not reciprocate, 2. a logical response that you would not want to suffer the authoritative consequences of breaking it, and 3. a logical response that you may want to continue to get more agreements with other people and word of mouth is a big problem if you screw someone over.

The Reapers are sentient machines and #1 appears to be nonexistant. As they are also the dominant force in the galaxy, #2 makes no sense. Finally, the Reapers have the ability to take whatever they want so further agreements simply are not necessary and thus #3 isn't going to matter. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that any agreement you could make with these things would be binding and if such an agreement becomes a hinderance, which it would eventually, even someone as intelligent as TIM should know that there is no reason why the Reapers would keep their word on it.

Besides, the only way humanity would be able to bargain for its survival is if it tried to prove that they could be useful. Yet, there are two other species that TIM is aware of that are useful to the Reapers, one of which (The Collectors) appears to have been engineered from another species to give them more of a purpose to be manipulated by the Reapers. I think any sane person would probably conclude that argument might work, but it certainly won't make humanity survive and prosper since neither of these species seems to retain its sapience (The Collectors or the Keepers).

The only organic that has been presented to have fallen for any of their tricks was Saren and I'm going to venture to guess that the only reason he did so is because he did not know some details that certain people like the Illusive Man would know after the events of the Battle of the Citadel. Once he did learn some of those secrets, like the purpose of the Keepers, he was probably so far gone with indoctrination that it didn't matter.

Maranek999

TIM is a pragmatic. If he sees a thousand reapers turn up he will take whatever he believes is the best outcome. He's not stupid and will not try to "crush a thousand reapers under his heel".

I can agree with you on this, short of crushing the Reapers anyway. Cerberus is essentially an "ultranationalist" organization if you think of humanity as a nation. One of the core tenets of ultranationalism is that you have to believe that all foreign influence has to be dispersed away from the nation because the values that come from your nation are what make you superior to all foreigners (the aliens). The danger with ultranationalism is that it will literally destroy the nation in times of war even if it believes there is a good possibility it cannot win simply because surrender would be admitting that foreigners are better than you. This is one of the reasons why two atomic bombs didn't sway the Japanese militants until the emperor pleaded with them to surrender in 1945. This is also one of the reasons why Germany was more or less utterly destroyed in 1945 as well.

The only way I could see The Illusive Man giving in would be if Earth, all of our colonies, and our position within the Citadel was all nearly destroyed at that point in time with no hope of stopping them. Even then, that might be a stretch as surrendering to the Reaper threat will mean there is no chance of humanity ever becoming the dominant force in the galaxy.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 23 avril 2011 - 03:29 .