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[Inverness Moon]

Casuist wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Please have some common sense. TIM going after Shepard while the reapers are still a threat makes no sense.

Whether TIM wanted to kill Shepard before or might decide afterwards is irrelevant.

TIM's character is quite relevant.

TIM going after Shepard, as I stated before, requires only that he believe doing so forwards his agenda in one way or another. If TIM thought that he could forward a cause of human supremacy by screwing over Shepard, he would do it. If he felt Shepard was getting in the way of measures Cerberus itself was taking against the invasion, he'd do it.

Many on the forums believe the reapers cannot be defeated without Shepard (for good reason... we're metagaming after all). TIM is NOT party to this assumption, and he has no personal interest in Shepard's continuing prosperity beyond what it can do for him.

Of course, we're lacking the specific context of the decision (and, for that matter, TIM making any move against shepard at all is only an assumption and likely will stay that way until we have the game)... but it's pretty clear that it doesn't take any kind of literary contortions to change TIM and Cerberus from an evil, human supremacist, shepard-killing organization into an evil, human supremacist, shepard-killing organization. Even renegade shepard has to acknowledge ME2 is a marriage of convenience and mutual benefit.

TIM would not forward a cause of human supremacy if it meant screwing over Shepard and damaging efforts against the reapers. He has is priorities in order unlike the rest of the galaxy.

TIM's interest is in saving humanity, that means defeating the reapers. Shepard was revived because of what he could do for humanity, and as a result, TIM.

And it does take literary contortions to make TIM do something that is completely against his entire purpose and reason for bringing Shepard back.

Marta Rio wrote...

Yeah, any deal would probably cause a few eyes to roll.  But I suspect we'll probably see a scene in ME3 where the Reapers offer humanity (and possibly Shepard in particular) the chance to become "something infinitely greater".  They were already trying to do this in ME2, and the 3rd novel strongly hints at this as well.

Yes, you're referring to the organic soup for making reapers. The reapers and Shepard obviously have very different definitions of what is "infinitely greater," and I think TIM's position is on Shepard's side on that matter.

Though on that note, for the reapers to "offer" anyone that choice would imply that they don't believe they can simply force that on humanity. I don't see them offering anything.

I could see TIM finding this idea somewhat attractive, since he's always desired for humanity to be number one, (although I think you could argue that TIM wouldn't see god-like Reaper-humans as human anymore).  Especially if humanity is getting its ass handed to it during the invasion, and apotheosis seems like a better alternative to utter annihilation.  I could see some people's Shep's being drawn to this idea as well, depending on how they're being role-played.  Who wouldn't want to become a god, really?

TIM's desire is the preservation of humanity. Being the biggest kid on the block is a means to that end. Having humanity turned into soup directly contradicts that goal.

There is also no way in hell my Shepard would ever consider the reapers anything like gods.

Anyway, that was just my idea for why TIM might be trying to hunt down/otherwise impede Shepard.  I don't like the indoctrination angle because we've seen it so many times already.  I don't like the "Cerberus is full of idiots"/"Cerberus is full of bad guys" angle because I think that's too simple.  So I'm hoping for something a bit different to explain why TIM would suddenly want to stop Shepard.

I agree with you. The indoctrination explanation is sort of a cliche now. It was used to great effect in the first game, but if you make it so all the important characters turn on you because of it, like TIM, then it becomes overused.

Dr. Nexas wrote...

I'm not sure you're following me. TIM touched a specific piece of Reaper technology that was specifcally shown to indoctrinate people and turn them into something resembling husks.

And? TIM has been fine for years. He has been actively working against the reapers since the events of ME1, even worked against the collectors and shadow broker in order to retrieve Shepard's body and have him revived in order to help save humanity. Now if you expect me to believe he is suddenly going to a heel face turn and help destroy humanity, you'd better have a better explanation than reaper technology that you know so little about.

[Dr. Nexas]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Dr. Nexas wrote...

I'm not sure you're following me. TIM touched a specific piece of Reaper technology that was specifcally shown to indoctrinate people and turn them into something resembling husks.

And? TIM has been fine for years. He has been actively working against the reapers since the events of ME1, even worked against the collectors and shadow broker in order to retrieve Shepard's body and have him revived in order to help save humanity. Now if you expect me to believe he is suddenly going to a heel face turn and help destroy humanity, you'd better have a better explanation than reaper technology that you know so little about.

And how do you know that he's been fine? He's probably fighting the Reaper influence in his mind for years. Makes sense that he would finally break when they're so close to him.

[Casuist]

Inverness Moon wrote...
TIM would not forward a cause of human supremacy if it meant screwing over Shepard and damaging efforts against the reapers. He has is priorities in order unlike the rest of the galaxy.

TIM's interest is in saving humanity, that means defeating the reapers. Shepard was revived because of what he could do for humanity, and as a result, TIM.

And it does take literary contortions to make TIM do something that is completely against his entire purpose and reason for bringing Shepard back.

...and you did not read what I said. To repeat:

Many on the forums believe the reapers cannot be defeated without Shepard (for good reason... we're metagaming after all). TIM is NOT party to this assumption, and he has no personal interest in Shepard's continuing prosperity beyond what it can do for him.

If TIM believes the Repaers cannot be defeated without Shepard, I agree with you. TIM does not necessarily believe that.

[Inverness Moon]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

And how do you know that he's been fine? He's probably fighting the Reaper influence in his mind for years. Makes sense that he would finally break when they're so close to him.

Now you're just making stuff up. You have no idea what is going on in his mind, so it doesn't "make sense" when you have no evidence to even support that.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Harbinger controls the collectors, who have been operating in the galaxy for many years, who TIM has been actively working against to help Shepard. If the reapers could have influenced him it would have been silly not to do it then.

Plus, you're basically just saying because there is reaper technology involved that it must be affecting him somehow without any evidence to support that and plenty of evidence against it.

Also, reaper indoctrination fields don't just magically reach across lightyears, and quantum entaglement technology ignores distance. The reapers arriving in the galaxy isn't going to suddenly change anything.

Casuist wrote...

If TIM believes the Repaers cannot be defeated without Shepard, I agree with you. TIM does not necessarily believe that.

TIM believes Shepard is important enough to invest 4 billion credits in. I don't expect a sudden about face in ME3 which somehow supersedes the whole line of reasoning that resulted in Shepard's revival.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 avril 2011 - 04:26 .

[Jagri]

Dr. Nexas wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Dr. Nexas wrote...

Considering thats what it did to the other people who touched it, its a perfectly logical assumption to make.

Your logic doesn't seem to consider the Citadel and mass relays, neither of which have been known to indoctrinate. The reasoning for that is obvious, and why your logic is flawed. Reapers indoctrinate because they're designed to contain and indoctrinate crews from their missions to exterminate/harvest life. Dragon's teeth apparently indoctrinate because they're design to infect and convert organics into husks. That doesn't mean you get to claim that every bit of reaper technology, indoctrinates. That is certainly not logical.

Some people seem to be under the impression that reaper technology is magic or something, it's very irritating.

I'm not sure you're following me. TIM touched a specific piece of Reaper technology that was specifcally shown to indoctrinate people and turn them into something resembling husks.

I have to ask not only TIM but his buddy was hit by the very same device right? That TIMs friend ends up becoming a Reaper Agent in the end?

[Inverness Moon]

God, the whole magic huskification ray was completely ridiculous.

[NoUserNameHere]

Flash of the obvious:

For RenegadeShep, perhaps it is not that Cerberus wants Shep dead as much as they want him/her for something not even a Renegade could agree with.

Furinstance, "come get melted down to serve as the base personality of our "tame" Reaper flagship."

Cure RenegadeShep fighting to stuff TiM in the vat and take over Cerberus for him/her self.

[Devbo22]

This just in, Shepard is in fact Saren 2.0 and is a pawn of the reapers. You actually play ME3 as TIM trying to stop Shepard...

But seriously, we have very little to go off of at this point and really no context. We don't know what the reasoning is for Cerberus trying to kill Shepard. Maybe it's because of indoctrination, maybe TIM is looking for ultimate supremacy? He might see an opportunity to take out the Reapers and Shepard simultaneously, eliminating two obstacles in one blow... We won't know until either Bioware releases more information, or ideally as we work our way through the final chapter of this trilogy.

[NoUserNameHere]

edit: Doh, disregard.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 09 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[Inverness Moon]

Devbo22 wrote...

This just in, Shepard is in fact Saren 2.0 and is a pawn of the reapers. You actually play ME3 as TIM trying to stop Shepard...

But seriously, we have very little to go off of at this point and really no context. We don't know what the reasoning is for Cerberus trying to kill Shepard. Maybe it's because of indoctrination, maybe TIM is looking for ultimate supremacy? He might see an opportunity to take out the Reapers and Shepard simultaneously, eliminating two obstacles in one blow... We won't know until either Bioware releases more information, or ideally as we work our way through the final chapter of this trilogy.

Yea, you're right. It's pointless to argue about this when we don't even have the full picture.

[Casuist]

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM believes Shepard is important enough to invest 4 billion credits in. I don't expect a sudden about face in ME3 which somehow supersedes the whole line of reasoning that resulted in Shepard's revival.

1) TIM isn't lacking in funds.

2) It's a sunk investment... one that has already brought in some return in Collector/Reaper technology and dealing with the immediate threat of colony abductions. If a different approach meets his goals more readily, that investment will make no difference.

[Dave of Canada]

Casuist wrote...

If TIM believes the Repaers cannot be defeated without Shepard, I agree with you. TIM does not necessarily believe that.

He still views Shepard's death in the "Everybody dies" endings as a big enough loss, Base kept or not.

[Eelectrica]

Hopefully the start of ME 3 depends on what you did with the collector base.
Paragon Shep who destroys the base is on TIM's bad side so he's after shep.

Renegade shep who kept the base means TIM is indoctrinated. So still not an ally for Shep.

[Talthanar]

If one reads the third novel you'll see TIM isn't quite the baller he was in anything previous. Not poor by any means but his coffers HAVE taken a hit.

Also if you read the third novel you learn that TIM can be quite petty which goes against his cold, logical nature in the games. Since Drew left the dev team for other pastures it's hard to say how TIM changed from Drew's original writing of him from ME1 to 2 vs the books which he wrote.

[Casuist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

He still views Shepard's death in the "Everybody dies" endings as a big enough loss, Base kept or not.

... "considerable void" being all he has to say about it, when Joker puts him on the spot. He has "considerably" more to say about the loss of the base, if destroyed. If kept, that little grin of his with ships (funny, the ship designs in that hologram are yanked right out of Freelancer) on their way to the base is not exactly aggrieved.

...and all that is beside the point: TIM consistenty views Shepard as a potentially beneficial asset but if that value judgment changes in any way for any reason his character demands that past valuation is irrelevant.

TIM was willing to risk sending an unknowing Shepard into a Collector trap on the chance of finding beneficial tech and, in particular, a means to go through the relay. TIM had no means of assessing the risk of that trap, and had to view a total loss of personnel as acceptable. We, as gamers, know shepard is indispensible. TIM does not, and it's important to appreciate the difference. 

Anderson believes in Shepard, by contrast... so does Hackett and every (loyal) squadmate.
TIM is using Shepard. So long as Shepard benefits his overall goals (even with the Reapers as a priority), he'll invest.

No further than that. His actions make that abundantly clear.

Modifié par Casuist, 09 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I wouldn't be surprised if TIM found a means to control the Reapers if he got base, but fears Shepard might be the only one able to stop him.

[lovgreno]

To OP: Yeah that would work well with TIMmys messiah complex.

[Casuist]

Talthanar wrote...

If one reads the third novel you'll see TIM isn't quite the baller he was in anything previous. Not poor by any means but his coffers HAVE taken a hit.

...actually I was trying to remember exactly how much money TIM bribed Aria with and the context of his offer again. Book's in storage.

However, again... "sunk" cost. TIM is a forward thinker.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Shepard was revived because of what he could do for humanity, and as a result, TIM.

Starting with the events of Redemption and continuing into ME2, there is the idea that the Collectors/Harbinger want Shepard (or as much of his body as possible) for some unknown purpose. TIM seems to not know what this purpose is, but bases all actions on this factor.

TIM's spy gambit vs. the Shadow Broker, specifically, block 2.


But whatever the Reapers want Shepard for, it can't be good, and figuring out what it is may be reason enough for TIM want to kill Shepard. Still, it would make sense to try and trap Shepard, or at least communicate somehow, before sending in the kill teams... Unless TIM believes that Shepard is already indoctrinated, or he is indoctrinated himself.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[Taritu]

Aelia wrote...

My theory from another thread:

Well, since LotSB is bridging DLC it makes sense that it was not created as a throwaway, but rather to further the plot of ME3. I suspect BW had a good reason for installing her in this position and will have a good reason for modifying it. My personal theory on this is akin to Akizora's only it won't be the reapers that threatens Liara's network... it will be Cerberus. Seems to me that the SB's network would be something TIM would covet and feel was vital to further human supremacy (can't leave it in the hands of an alien).

Further, this would explain Cerberus' reversal with regard to Shep... since most likely even renegade Shep is going to come to Liara's rescue. Since Cerberus knows where she is, Liara does indeed transfer her network to the Normandy giving Shep immediate access to a resource Shep wouldn't otherwise have. From a storytelling perspective this has the additional benefit of being able to ligitimately provide Shep information from across the galaxy that Cerberus, the Aliance, the Council, etc. etc. alone would not have access to and/or would not be willing to provide Shep for various political reasons. Shep would then be completely autonomous and free to act in the way she sees best.

<shrug> Just a thought.
-A

Smart.  I like it.  I hope it's something like this, there was too much stupidity in ME2 (like the Council) which didn't make sense, I'd like Cerberus after Shepard to make sense (especially if you gave Tim the base, which I didn't, but for people who did, Shep should be Tim's favorite person.)

[BlackwindTheCommander]

I'd be more then happy to accept the whole Cerberus chasing Paragon Shepard but not Renegade Shepard. But if I hear him utter organics only hope for survival is to joint them, well I'm putting a bullet through his head.

[Terror_K]

As I said in a similar thread, my guess is that somehow TIM discovers (or thinks he does) the reasons why The Reapers wanted Shepard so much, and then decides that he'd rather Shepard be dead than fall into their clutches. Or even if he doesn't know perhaps he fears what the repercussions could be. It's all well and good when Shepard is fighting them indirectly to stop them, but when they're here now and Shepard is in striking distance... that's another matter.

[Wolverfrog]

My best guess is that the Illusive Man believes Shepard is a danger if the Reapers get their proverbial hands on him. If I remember correctly the Prothean Reaper failed. And the Collectors are all dead or their transformation changed them too much. So the Reapers don't really have the Prothean Cipher, do they? Shepard's the only being alive who does. Perhaps the Protheans left something behind which the Reapers want, and Shepard's the only one who can unlock it.

I can see that as being a viable reason for the Illusive Man to want him dead.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Stardusk78 wrote...

No, much simpler than that;

Shepard blows up base=TIM angry

Shepard keeps base=TIM indoctrinated

That sounds more like it. Not far from how decisions are handled usually. It just requires a dialogue line change here and there, so the main story can remain the same.

[lovgreno]

Stardusk78 wrote...

No, much simpler than that;

Shepard blows up base=TIM angry

Shepard keeps base=TIM indoctrinated

Things like this has happened through ME2 so it's possible.

Shepard is only valuable to TIMmy as long as she/he can be controlled and. When Shepard takes initiatives that TIMmy don't like he can't hide his annoyance. TIMmy has betrayed Shepard before. And as TIMmy is highly blinded by his For Humanity! ideas he could very well start to see a Shepard who doesn't bow to his will as a threat to humanity
(in TIMmys single minded head humanity = Cerberus = TIMmy and no one else).

And reaper tech has usualy (but not always) been a indoctrination trap that is not seen untill it was too late (especialy when in Failberus clumsy hands).