191 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Alistair can't be part-elf, his face is too chubby *shot*

[Perfect-Kenshin]

David Gaider wrote...

VeoLu wrote...
I am in favour of Hawke having a voice, however, just in the future hope it' fits better to the emotional pretense.

Personally, I wouldn't mind adding some different icons. I think, for instance, that we became a bit fixated on the icons presenting "tone" and thus missed an opportunity to have them express emotion: a happy or sad icon, for instance, that would be permission of a sort from the player for us to have the PC react to something in a more emotional way (whereas normally we avoid going too far in that direction out of a sense of not wanting to impede on the player's territory).

As far as the paraphrases themselves go, I don't think we'll be getting rid of them anytime soon. I do think, however, that we can and should work on refining our rules for their use (coupled with the use of better icons). I wouldn't mind seeing an option for a player to hover over a response and get some pop-up text of the resulting wording-- but that might be something that only works for the PC, and not really my forte anyhow since it involves GUI magic. But I'd be in favor of it, even if it's just for those people who will never get past their mental block regarding the paraphrases.

I agree. My Hawke was actually cracking jokes before his mother's death as well as when he was talking to his Uncle about it. For Pete's sake.<_<

[In Exile]

I think DA2 just needed a way to tie up 3 Years Later. I always expected a short rescue of Varric to end the game and Cassandra meeting Hawke. Something to make the player feel... I'm in the future now, where it all began.

[AnimeAngel90]

KyleOrdrum wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

c) Thank you for being so personally involved so as to rant. I'll take flaily rants over apathy any day.

Did Gaider just say he likes making us angry?

Well the devs do feed off our tears....maybe angry tears taste better? 

It could also be that being angry about something means you still care about it, even if you don't like it. better than apathy. Writers would prefer passionate responses to their work (even if negative) rather than "i-don't-care"

[BlueMew]

Sabariel wrote...

Alistair can't be part-elf, his face is too chubby *shot*

Well, he just takes after his father then Cailan had a chubby face too (but he must have spent much more time on his hair).
That's the only thing I missed in DA2. Alistair  Like I mentioned earlier, I found it funny running into Alistair-the-Grey-Warden, it made me feel my own Warden was somewhere close by, doing whatever the two of them were up to. Just a bit of meta-game fun.

Oddly enough, I for one don't really mind loose ends. It appeals to the roleplayer and fanfic writer in me. It is always, always better than "rocks fall, people die." 

Plus I DO like the novel idea of framed storytelling (yay Varric), and I truly developed a soft spot for my (customized) Hawke. Poor man, it CAN be worse than becoming a Warden and not having to worry about a retirement plan.  

There is the occasional dialogue system failure (the "oops, that's not what I wanted to say" syndrom), but nothing a quick reload won't fix. You get used to it.
Now, if they don't kill off my favourite characters (I haven't forgotten the Baldur's Gate series, grr ), I am one happy end user.

[TobiTobsen]

Sabariel wrote...

Alistair can't be part-elf, his face is too chubby *shot*

Remember the chubby guy in Denerim that gave you the thief quests? That was an "Half-Elf" to. Since kids of elves and humans are humans too, they can be as thin or fat muscled as any other human.
Forget the fat part. The "fat" model is a thing of the past.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 11 avril 2011 - 11:17 .

[DA_GamerGal]

BluMe wrote...

That's the only thing I missed in DA2. Alistair  Like I mentioned earlier, I found it funny running into Alistair-the-Grey-Warden, it made me feel my own Warden was somewhere close by, doing whatever the two of them were up to. Just a bit of meta-game fun.

Oddly enough, I for one don't really mind loose ends. It appeals to the roleplayer and fanfic writer in me. It is always, always better than "rocks fall, people die." 

Plus I DO like the novel idea of framed storytelling (yay Varric), and I truly developed a soft spot for my (customized) Hawke. Poor man, it CAN be worse than becoming a Warden and not having to worry about a retirement plan.  

There is the occasional dialogue system failure (the "oops, that's not what I wanted to say" syndrome), but nothing a quick reload won't fix. You get used to it.
Now, if they don't kill off my favourite characters (I haven't forgotten the Baldur's Gate series, gr ), I am one happy end user.

I really loved that so many of my favorite DA:O characters made an appearance in DA2.  My Hawke ran into King Alistair (who is married to my Grey Warden) with Anders and Isabella in the party and the dialogue between everyone was priceless!  Being able to import my game saves from DA:O and Awakenings made my game that much more personal and helped with any continuity issues that here may have been.

I thought the story-within-a story aspect was wonderful. And the only thing negative that I can say about Varric, is that the writers didn't give him enough lines and witty banter ! He really needs to speak to his agent about that.

I wouldn't be all that pleased if the writers started killing off my favorite characters, as well. But then again, I have already killed two of my favorite companions in DA2 - Anders I killed twice, and Fenris I killed once ( so far). Unlike in ME2, I have yet to find a way where all my companions can stay alive in DA2 .  Even in DA:O I ended up killing Zevran twice, yet he is alive and kicking in my DA2 ( Thank the Maker for "perfect" game save!).

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

I wouldn't mind seeing an option for a player to hover over a response and get some pop-up text of the resulting wording-- but that might be something that only works for the PC, and not really my forte anyhow since it involves GUI magic. But I'd be in favor of it, even if it's just for those people who will never get past their mental block regarding the paraphrases.

It's not a mental block.  The paraphrases are demonstrably bad at letting the player know what his character is going to say.

I still think they would work better if they were written separately by someone who didn't know what the conversation was about.  If the paraphrases were written line by line without any knowledge of where they fell in the flow of dialogue, that would produce paraphrases that were more universally useful.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Occasionally we run into a bit of a conundrum when it comes to the split between a "choice wheel" and a "personality wheel". The latter just has flavor options-- the three tones plus the possibility of up to two extras (ignoring investigates). The former, meanwhile, is intended for use when actual choices are needed... but we do occasionally use it as a sort of personality wheel when the intent is to express opinions sans tone. That, however, seems to muddy the waters a bit... not just for the player but for the writer-- as a choice line would automatically change depending on the dominant tone.

Thus we're often forced to include opinions on the personality wheel, essentially picking which choices to present and matching them as closely to a tone as we can (not unlike Origins, incidentally, as there you would also simply have whichever opinions we chose to include). I can't help but feel there's a better way to do this, however, without it becoming incredibly cumbersome to write.

If you define what it is to be a "choice wheel" or a "personality wheel" or an "opinion wheel", and then somehow inform the player which sort of wheel this particular instance is, that might work.

For many of us, selecting a dialogue option is an always will be an analytic activity.  Giving us more information is a good thing, full stop.

David Gaider wrote...

To be honest, I don't think there's much middle ground to be had with this. One of the advantages of a voiced PC is having them participate in the scene, after all, and attempts to try and appease people who are fundamentally opposed to the idea tend to weaken that advantage. I'm not suggesting it's always a good idea-- you don't want to take away player agency either-- but in some respects it's better to just own the style you've chosen rather than trying to have it both ways and ending up with the disadvantages of both as well.

But this design you're using now basically prevents the player from implementing a personality for the PC.  Instead he's stuck playing the personality you wrote.

Where's the fun in that?  Where's the roleplaying?

So that's not ever something I'm going to opt to do-- which isn't to say that how we do it couldn't use some refining, definitely. Using a voiced PC properly isn't easy, and while it offers strengths the unvoiced PC doesn't have, it also has its own inherent weaknesses. Our efforts will be to mitigate those as much as we can without simultaneously surrendering the advantages for the sake of players who would really just rather have it be the other way anyhow.

Even if you don't design the game to work well without the voice, at least let us turn it off so that we can play a poorly-made game we like rather than a well-made game we dislike.

There was no "chance of success". The tones were there to indicate your intent, not indicate the use of an ability or a skill. If the Lie icon appeared, it meant the PC would attempt to deceive, nothing more.

I still object to the Lie icon.  I don't see why the game needs to know whether the PC is lying.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[Edge2177]

If Bioware only planned to do a trilogy of DA games, how do you suppose they will be able to finish all the storylines started in DA:O , Awakenings and DA2 , and tie up all loose ends in just one game? I don't think it is possible.

They have already stated DA is a new gaming world that will evolve over time and is not a trilogy.

In DA2 the wardens show up in both Kirkwall and in the deeproads traveled by Hawk, and each time they allude to something very big that is brewing somewhere in Thedas, but we don't know what... more loose ends.

DLC seems obvious for this one, they even go so far to say, "We'll tell Hawke later." In the specific encounters.

No questions have ever been aswered about her. What or who is she really? Why does her path always intersect with the various Champions and wardens? What is her ultimate goal? How does she effect the future of Thedas? Too many loose ends with Flemeth and Morrigan.

While it may begin in the 3rd sequel to the game, I suspect this will in no way 'conclude' there, it is a central plot line to the story that Bioware will slowly unlock hints, and snippets allowing us to enjoy the mystery behind the story.

Does Alistair find out who is mother really was and the true story behind his birth? And that he is actually part Elf?

I would not count on it, as learning he is an elf would likely give a crisis of faith to Alistair. There is enough content in the books to let us know, and remember this is a gaming world. You'll need to watch all of the content from books, anime, games, to truly sense the scope of the design and you will know the truth at least.

And lastly to tie up, I think there are enough hints to let us know what is coming.

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

It never feels like the Companions are talking to the character The Warden, it always feels like they're talking through the character to the player. It was especially bad in Origins because they were explaining so many things that should have been common knowledge to anyone inside that universe. So the Warden felt extremely bland and only there as a player avatar.

That is exactly what it felt like.  But I don't see that as a bad thing.  I always "get into" my characters in RPGs.  They *are* me, so a game that feels like the NPC is really talking through the monitor screen to me is.... satisfying.

The problem (I like doing this too) is that I can't get into a character as "me" when my options don't exist. To use a DA:O example, my Cousland Wardens would have - at any cost - tried to crown themself King over Anora or Alistair. But that option is obviously not in game. Or immediately expose the Wardens to Eamon and refuse to move on Denerim (as military commander) without more Wardens since with 3, victory was nigh ridiculous.

But you cannot really be "you" in game, you can just have the characters speak to you and then pick what options the writers set out, all while being incredibly passive and having others speak for you in key moments.

DA2 had a lot of brilliant advances in dialogue (especially allowing other party members to speak for you if they were there). I think that's what we ought to focus on - expanding the interactions your already semi-fixed personality in the game world has versu (for me) persistently break immersion by reminding me all the things I can't say.

A personal gripping story that tries to make you more than an errand boy does not work with projective dialogue the like you talk about here.

[Lord_Valandil]

David Gaider wrote...
Because if not every choice matters, that means none of them do. Clearly.

Well, with all respect due, none of them do.
Name one that doesn't result in a quick cameo (and the Leliana retcon), random babbling in a tavern or a lame mini-quest like the dalish who is about to slay a former werewolf.

[Edge2177]

David Gaider wrote...

VeoLu wrote...
I am in favour of Hawke having a voice, however, just in the future hope it' fits better to the emotional pretense.

Personally, I wouldn't mind adding some different icons. I think, for instance, that we became a bit fixated on the icons presenting "tone" and thus missed an opportunity to have them express emotion: a happy or sad icon, for instance, that would be permission of a sort from the player for us to have the PC react to something in a more emotional way (whereas normally we avoid going too far in that direction out of a sense of not wanting to impede on the player's territory).

As far as the paraphrases themselves go, I don't think we'll be getting rid of them anytime soon. I do think, however, that we can and should work on refining our rules for their use (coupled with the use of better icons). I wouldn't mind seeing an option for a player to hover over a response and get some pop-up text of the resulting wording-- but that might be something that only works for the PC, and not really my forte anyhow since it involves GUI magic. But I'd be in favor of it, even if it's just for those people who will never get past their mental block regarding the paraphrases.

Thankfully, we have a mod community hehehe.

Modifié par Edge2177, 11 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[Zjarcal]

In Exile wrote...

But you cannot really be "you" in game, you can just have the characters speak to you and then pick what options the writers set out, all while being incredibly passive and having others speak for you in key moments.

This.

Though I won't argue against those who feel like the Warden is THEIR character and Hawke isn't, I honestly view them both in the same way.

You can't stray away from the path Bioware has set. Just as In Exile points out, there are many things my Warden wouldn't have done but she had to because THE STORY DICTATES (saving Eamon and going searching for the Ashes being the prime example). Same goes for Hawke.

The PCs are never really our characters in the strictest sense of the word. Hell, Bioware decided that MY warden went missing even if in my head her adventuring days were over. So much for me getting to decide her fate.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Strayhorn]

[

[quote]Does Alistair find out who is mother really was and the true story behind his birth? And that he is actually part Elf?[/quote]
I would not count on it, as learning he is an elf would likely give a crisis of faith to Alistair. [/quote]


I may have missed some codex entry that says otherwise, but within Dragon Age lore I thought that the progeny of a human and elf was always human, wholly --and only-- human. Not an elf,  half-elf or part-elf.  

I took the apparent concern of fellow Kirkwallians regarding Feyndriel's "elf blood coursing through his veins" as nothing more than simple prejudice, completely consistent with the atmosphere of the city. 

[Bryy_Miller]

Edge2177 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

VeoLu wrote...
I am in favour of Hawke having a voice, however, just in the future hope it' fits better to the emotional pretense.

Personally, I wouldn't mind adding some different icons. I think, for instance, that we became a bit fixated on the icons presenting "tone" and thus missed an opportunity to have them express emotion: a happy or sad icon, for instance, that would be permission of a sort from the player for us to have the PC react to something in a more emotional way (whereas normally we avoid going too far in that direction out of a sense of not wanting to impede on the player's territory).

As far as the paraphrases themselves go, I don't think we'll be getting rid of them anytime soon. I do think, however, that we can and should work on refining our rules for their use (coupled with the use of better icons). I wouldn't mind seeing an option for a player to hover over a response and get some pop-up text of the resulting wording-- but that might be something that only works for the PC, and not really my forte anyhow since it involves GUI magic. But I'd be in favor of it, even if it's just for those people who will never get past their mental block regarding the paraphrases.

Thankfully, we have a mod community hehehe.

..... I need this mod.

[Fluffyfiend]

David Gaider wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Eh... I really thought there were too many icons as is in DA2. I mean, really, how is a diamond indicitive of cunning? Not to mention some were defined rather broadly. Or something like the "lie" icon- without any non combat skills or stats tied to that sort of skill, how are you supposed to know if it's chance of success?

There was no "chance of success". The tones were there to indicate your intent, not indicate the use of an ability or a skill. If the Lie icon appeared, it meant the PC would attempt to deceive, nothing more.

As for too many icons, I agree-- at least on the front of our attempt to try and further split the main triad of tones up further into "sub-tones". I don't think that was really intuitive for either the player or the writer. If there are icons, they should be pretty clear-- which a sad or happy icon would be, I think. I certainly don't think we need more nuance.

I will have to respectfully diagree. I felt the icons were pretty clear. I only had to look one up to figure out what it was (the star). Otherwise, I was able to easily identify them at a glance. But that was just my experience and YMMV.

I was very against the paraphrasing after playing ME2 (while I love the game this is one of its weaker points) and was pleasantly surprised with how much I enjoyed it with DA2. I didn't think I would like not knowing exactly what my character was saying before deciding which one to go with and I was wrong.

I'm sure it needs tweeking for everyone (dev and players) to be pleased with it. But kudos on a far better implimentation than I expected.