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[Deified Data]

FYI, this is the quest where Fenris is led into an ambush in the Hanged Man by his sister, who is revealed to be a magister-apprentice and a servant of Denarius. There are multiple paths through this quest, with the two biggest choices being whether to sell Fenris back into slavery, or whether to spare the life of Fenris's sister. This thread concerns Anders's reactions to a couple of the choices you can make, and their implications.

First, you are given the opportunity to sell Fenris back to Denarius. If you decide to do so, Anders will respond with something along the lines of "I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that" - after the scene, you will gain +5 friendship with Anders for selling Fenris back into slavery.

Second, you are given the choice to spare Fenris's sister, who betrayed him by leading him into Denarius's trap. Fenris's first inclination is to kill her for betraying him and sympathizing Denarius - whether he is "right" in this I will not argue here. However, once it is revealed that Fenris's sister is a mage, Anders calls Fenris a hypocrite for wanting to kill her, and says, and I quote: "You're just jealous (of her)". Killing this betrayer only becomes a bad thing to Anders once it is revealed she's a mage, as though that changes everything.

For someone who's spent his entire life under oppression (and being possessed by a spirit of justice, besides), Anders displays a remarkable lack of respect for human life and freedom. He fights for the freedom of mages while virtually cheering you on as you sell a non-mage into slavery. Is it "justice" to sell a man into slavery just because he doesn't agree with your political opinions? Is someone instantly forgiven of all trespasses just because they're a mage?

I'll be honest - Anders earned alot of flack from me when he blew up the Chantry, but this blatant hypocracy and sadism on his part puts him over the edge between "mild nuisance" and "inhuman monster". Can any Anders fans justify what he did, here? Why would justice manifest itself in such an injust way? Is there absolutely nothing left but vengeance inside Anders by Act III?

[Hubrah]

That boy ain't right in the head.

[jaybee93]

I think you might be right that Justice is completely taking over by Act III. I'm not exactly an Anders fan but I do like his arc throughout the story. His descent pulls not punches.

His attack on Fenris' sister is like his attack on the mage girl he kills or nearly kills in Act II (was it Act II? Or whenever): he's starting to be dangerous even for the people he's trying to protect. classic obsession, really.

[ReallyRue]

I think it's more to do with despising Fenris than him supporting slavery.

But yeah, definitely one of his more **** moments.

[Cutlass Jack]

I would say overall Fenris and Anders are equally blind to the fact they have much in common with each other. Or maybe they're just afraid to admit it.

[jaybee93]

*no punches.

[Raiil]

Fenris's and Anders's initial mutual dislike descends into outright hatred and loathing, as far as I could see. When you combine Anders's intense mental degradation via Justice, Fenris harping on him (as much as Anders harps on Fenris- something tells me Fenris would be no kinder to Anders were the situations reversed) and just a crap situation all around, you get the acid spilling from Anders's mouth.


I've never even considered giving Fenris up to Danarius, nor do I stand in Fenris's way when he wants to kill his sister, so that Anders doesn't exist for me. Perhaps those of us who play that way might be missing something in context or tone.

[TobiTobsen]

There is no Justice anymore. Just Vengeance. And the glee when you sell Fenris into slavery fits Vengeance pretty well if you ask me. Fenris doesn't support Anders/Vengeances opinion and as revenge he gets sold into slavery.

Vengeance approves +10

[Rifneno]

I don't think Anders was supporting sparing the sister.  He was just trolling Fenris because he had an opportunity to, just as Fenris does to him.  I do think it was totally hypocritical and inhuman to support selling Fenris back into slavery, however.  I don't judge him in the slightest on the Chantry, but I can't defend his remarks when Hawke sells Fenris.

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think Anders was supporting sparing the sister.  He was just trolling Fenris because he had an opportunity to, just as Fenris does to him.  I do think it was totally hypocritical and inhuman to support selling Fenris back into slavery, however.  I don't judge him in the slightest on the Chantry, but I can't defend his remarks when Hawke sells Fenris.

This isn't Anders anymore.  This is Vengenance and it seems prefectly in line with Vengence to get even with a hypocritical mage-hater who hates all slavery except for mages to be sold into slavery himself.  There is very little human left in Anders in Act 3 IMHO.

-Polaris

[PlumPaul93]

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

[Rifneno]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I would say overall Fenris and Anders are equally blind to the fact they have much in common with each other. Or maybe they're just afraid to admit it.

I agree with Cutlass about something he said about Anders?  Quick, someone check and see if the sun turned black!  

I'm almost glad it is this way.  Because if Fenris blamed Tevinters or slavers or whatever and not magic, the major reason they hate (and I really mean hate, wow, I've never seen two party members HATE each other like these two) each other would be gone.  And they'd realize how alike they are.  And then one day, we'd walk into Fenris' mansion without knocking and see that which cannot be unseen.  ...  <shudder>

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think Anders was supporting sparing the sister.  He was just trolling Fenris because he had an opportunity to, just as Fenris does to him.  I do think it was totally hypocritical and inhuman to support selling Fenris back into slavery, however.  I don't judge him in the slightest on the Chantry, but I can't defend his remarks when Hawke sells Fenris.

This isn't Anders anymore.  This is Vengenance and it seems prefectly in line with Vengence to get even with a hypocritical mage-hater who hates all slavery except for mages to be sold into slavery himself.  There is very little human left in Anders in Act 3 IMHO.

-Polaris

That seems a fair assessment. Though, as an admitted fan of Fenris, I have bring up the fact that Fenris likely wouldn't squeal in sadistic glee as Anders was sold into slavery. Fenris may feel that Anders should be kept in check, even slain, but I've never seen mention of fenris recommending slavery in any form. The Circle is cruel, especially in Kirkwall, but it's far from slavery - this is something I wish I could have shouted at Anders every time he compared the two.

Remember that Fenris, when loyal, can be convinced to help the mages in the end by appealing to his love of freedom and hatred of slavery. Anders cannot be convinced, if one sides with the Templars. Fenris displays alot more flexibility in his admittedly narrow worldview than Anders.

[thesuperdarkone]

Deified Data wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think Anders was supporting sparing the sister.  He was just trolling Fenris because he had an opportunity to, just as Fenris does to him.  I do think it was totally hypocritical and inhuman to support selling Fenris back into slavery, however.  I don't judge him in the slightest on the Chantry, but I can't defend his remarks when Hawke sells Fenris.

This isn't Anders anymore.  This is Vengenance and it seems prefectly in line with Vengence to get even with a hypocritical mage-hater who hates all slavery except for mages to be sold into slavery himself.  There is very little human left in Anders in Act 3 IMHO.

-Polaris

That seems a fair assessment. Though, as an admitted fan of Fenris, I have bring up the fact that Fenris likely wouldn't squeal in sadistic glee as Anders was sold into slavery. Fenris may feel that Anders should be kept in check, even slain, but I've never seen mention of fenris recommending slavery in any form. The Circle is cruel, especially in Kirkwall, but it's far from slavery - this is something I wish I could have shouted at Anders every time he compared the two.

Remember that Fenris, when loyal, can be convinced to help the mages in the end by appealing to his love of freedom and hatred of slavery. Anders cannot be convinced, if one sides with the Templars. Fenris displays alot more flexibility in his admittedly narrow worldview than Anders.

 

Actually....

 

[Kinaori]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Actually....

 

Pretty sure that second one didn't make the cut into the game?  She mentions something about using the console to view that?

EDIT:  NM.  A post from Bioware says it's there... Might need to try this out.

Modifié par Kinaori, 08 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Plaintiff]

It's not like Fenris is any less of a douche, really. You should take him and Anders along on A New Path and watch how they gang up on Merrill as she sobs over Marethari's corpse.

I think you're wrong when you say the Circle is "nothing like slavery". In practise perhaps, there are some differences, but the mentality is essentially the same: that the people suffering aren't really human, they're objects. Cullen even says as much.

Notice that when Anders makes the comaprison between the Circle and slavery, Fenris does not dispute the point, he simply says he doesn't care about mages. And in Act 3, if you side with the mages and Fenris sides with the templars, you get the option to convince him a second time to come back to your side, and depending on various factors, the line you use will vary, but one possibility is something along the tone of "I thought you were against slavery", and that will sway his opinion.

So the parallels may not be obvious to you but they are obvious to Fenris.

I'd also point out that in Act 1, Anders disapproves if you threaten to blackmail Thrask about his daughter, while Fenris is the only party member who approves, and does so purely out of hatred for mages. Anders also openly abhors blood magic, saying that giving into demons is just proving the templars right.

[Patriciachr34]

I'm actually pretty appalled at Anders' behavior during the Alone quest. This is why I left him back at the clinic this time around. I also get pretty appalled at Fenris's reaction to Merrill. I try to keep these two apart as much as possible.

[Sesshomaru47]

What do you expect? Anders is jerk who likes to blow up people...He's not too bright either considering Fenris has amnesia!

[Deified Data]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's not like Fenris is any less of a douche, really. You should take him and Anders along on A New Path and watch how they gang up on Merrill as she sobs over Marethari's corpse.

I think you're wrong when you say the Circle is "nothing like slavery". In practise perhaps, there are some differences, but the mentality is essentially the same: that the people suffering aren't really human, they're objects. Cullen even says as much.

Notice that when Anders makes the comaprison between the Circle and slavery, Fenris does not dispute the point, he simply says he doesn't care about mages. And in Act 3, if you side with the mages and Fenris sides with the templars, you get the option to convince him a second time to come back to your side, and depending on various factors, the line you use will vary, but one possibility is something along the tone of "I thought you were against slavery", and that will sway his opinion.

So the parallels may not be obvious to you but they are obvious to Fenris.

I'd also point out that in Act 1, Anders disapproves if you threaten to blackmail Thrask about his daughter, while Fenris is the only party member who approves, and does so purely out of hatred for mages. Anders also openly abhors blood magic, saying that giving into demons is just proving the templars right.

Yes, I admit, Fenris is more than capable of being a titanic douche. That being said, Merrill brought it all on herself. She was selfish and short-sighted - what happened to her was inevitable. It may have been "mean" to criticize her in such a position, but it doesn't mean he (and Anders) were wrong. The difference between Fenris and Anders in this scenario is that Fenris is staying true to his ideals, while Anders (an abomination) is a hypocrite.

My Warden was from the Ferelden Circle, and loved it there. It was his home. It was Anders's home. It was not slavery. It was a responsible lifestyle for responsible mages. No, it wasn't perfect, but it was a far cry from being a sex slave/enforcer for an evil Tevinter magister. The Circle =/= slavery. The Kirkwall Circle may be an extremely oppressive environment, but Anders wouldn't know anything about that. When it comes to Cullen, remember how he came by his opinions. Uldred's insurrection may not have represented the mages at their best, but it represents mages, nonetheless - an aspect of them that cannot be ignored.

When Anders supports giving the letter to Thrask, he does so as a favor to his mage daughter, not the man himself. Fenris is the same - it's all about the daughter, not the templar.

But, in the end, my point is that Fenris can be convinced to ignore his hatred of mages for the sake of freedom (or hatred of slavery - it amounts to the same thing). Anders cannot. He's firm in his hate and, by the end of the game, one wonders if he's capable of feeling anything else.

[Eollodwyn]

But, in the end, my point is that Fenris can be convinced to ignore his hatred of mages for the sake of freedom (or hatred of slavery - it amounts to the same thing). Anders cannot. He's firm in his hate and, by the end of the game, one wonders if he's capable of feeling anything else.

You can, it's just bugged.  Granted, it takes more effort than it takes to convince Fenris to help you, but it's possible.


Or it would be, if it weren't for the bug...

Modifié par Eollodwyn, 08 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[Camenae]

Well, with Fenris, it's personal for Anders. I'm sure that we've all said really douche-y things to people who didn't necessarily deserve them, if we really disliked them. Not saying it's right, but I don't think what Anders did was really out of the ordinary.

[TobiTobsen]

Eollodwyn wrote...

But, in the end, my point is that Fenris can be convinced to ignore his hatred of mages for the sake of freedom (or hatred of slavery - it amounts to the same thing). Anders cannot. He's firm in his hate and, by the end of the game, one wonders if he's capable of feeling anything else.

You can, it's just bugged.  Granted, it takes more effort than it takes to convince Fenris to help you, but it's possible.


Or it would be, if it weren't for the bug...

Well the patch is probably ready after the weekend. Could be that's one of the 100 fixes they included.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 08 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Once you get rid of Alik (I believe that is the templar), you receive an email from the mage you save and she says that she and Bethany are pretty happy in the circle. The circle isn't bad and certainly isn't slavery and Anders opinion and what he does to Hawke sucks. On first time around, Hawke doesn't know what the "supplies" he/she's picking up are really being used for and Anders outright lies. Fenris doesn't do that. Fenris may hate mages but if you lived in Tevinter where most of the mages are blood mages and your slave master was a b*stard, then you'd hate mages too.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 08 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think Anders was supporting sparing the sister.  He was just trolling Fenris because he had an opportunity to, just as Fenris does to him.  I do think it was totally hypocritical and inhuman to support selling Fenris back into slavery, however.  I don't judge him in the slightest on the Chantry, but I can't defend his remarks when Hawke sells Fenris.

This isn't Anders anymore.  This is Vengenance and it seems prefectly in line with Vengence to get even with a hypocritical mage-hater who hates all slavery except for mages to be sold into slavery himself.  There is very little human left in Anders in Act 3 IMHO.

-Polaris

Yeah I think you could be right.  Vengeance wanted to kill the mage girl in act 2 simply for being in proximity to templars.  He doesn't care that a lot of the people he's claiming to work for are going to die as a result of his actions in act 3.  It makes me wonder if this is the careless disregard for life that you can expect from a spirit who can't really be killed.  To him the idea is all that matters, not the people it harms.

[Auroras]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod.