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[Cutlass Jack]

Auroras wrote...

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

If there was ever a moment demanding a 'Renegade Interrupt' it was that one.

[Halo Quea]

Deified Data wrote...


For someone who's spent his entire life under oppression (and being possessed by a spirit of justice, besides), Anders displays a remarkable lack of respect for human life and freedom. He fights for the freedom of mages while virtually cheering you on as you sell a non-mage into slavery. Is it "justice" to sell a man into slavery just because he doesn't agree with your political opinions? Is someone instantly forgiven of all trespasses just because they're a mage?

I'll be honest - Anders earned alot of flack from me when he blew up the Chantry, but this blatant hypocracy and sadism on his part puts him over the edge between "mild nuisance" and "inhuman monster". Can any Anders fans justify what he did, here? Why would justice manifest itself in such an injust way? Is there absolutely nothing left but vengeance inside Anders by Act III?

I could say the same things about about our choir boy Sabastian.   Throughout the entire game it's "Maker forgive us or Let us pray for these sinners we're killing"  during quests.  But when it was about his family he wanted revenge, when it was about Elthina it was also about killing for revenge. 

Anders spends a great deal of time verbally attacking Merrill but the whole time he was planning to do something worse than any abomination would have been able to accomplish on it's own.  

If think it's important to not just listen to what these characters are saying, but to watch their actions.  Anders almost killed that mage escaping the Gallows, that should have been a huge warning sign for all of us.  Anders has no control over himself.   The desire for mages to be free is his only moral compass, anything is justified in achieving that goal.

[Alamar2078]

Hmm.. I haven't had Anders & Fenris in the my parties too much so I can't comment from experience. I would have thought that Anders would think that freedom for everyone is important instead of just concentrating on freedom for mages.  Does anyone think that Anders is mad because Fenris is taking away the mage's property??

This is a loaded word / phrase coming up but if you consider mages a "category of people" then is Anders a bigot or prejudiced???

IMHO this is an interesting point to consider ... I've got to whip that party up now


EDIT: Anders might be deeper than I gave him credit for initially.  Not necessarily a better person / abomination but has more layers.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 08 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Alamar2078]

Halo Quea wrote...
Anders spends a great deal of time verbally attacking Merrill but the whole time he was planning to do something worse than any abomination would have been able to accomplish on it's own.  

I interpret him attacking Merrill as feeling guilty himself knowing that merging with Justice was going to lead to a very bad place.  He was just attacking her because he hated falling into the same trap.

Maybe I've giving the writer too much credit on this one but I thought that was a very good touch ....

[PlumPaul93]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...
Anders spends a great deal of time verbally attacking Merrill but the whole time he was planning to do something worse than any abomination would have been able to accomplish on it's own.  

I interpret him attacking Merrill as feeling guilty himself knowing that merging with Justice was going to lead to a very bad place.  He was just attacking her because he hated falling into the same trap.

Maybe I've giving the writer too much credit on this one but I thought that was a very good touch ....

no I just think its because anders is a hypocrite JMO.

[Alamar2078]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...
Anders spends a great deal of time verbally attacking Merrill but the whole time he was planning to do something worse than any abomination would have been able to accomplish on it's own.  

I interpret him attacking Merrill as feeling guilty himself knowing that merging with Justice was going to lead to a very bad place.  He was just attacking her because he hated falling into the same trap.

Maybe I've giving the writer too much credit on this one but I thought that was a very good touch ....

no I just think its because anders is a hypocrite JMO.

I wish I had a better arguement against that ... esp. considering the topic of this thread

[Avilia]

Addai67 wrote...

[snipped]

Yeah I think you could be right.  Vengeance wanted to kill the mage girl in act 2 simply for being in proximity to templars.  He doesn't care that a lot of the people he's claiming to work for are going to die as a result of his actions in act 3.  It makes me wonder if this is the careless disregard for life that you can expect from a spirit who can't really be killed.  To him the idea is all that matters, not the people it harms.

This for me, so much this.  Anders seems to be so focussed on the one goal of freeing the mages (as he sees it) that anything else is ignored.  Not even ignored really, it just doesn't exist.  There are examples where he focuses solely on mages being right no matter what the situation you find them in.  The Starkhaven mages for instance, he's fine to kill Thrask because it will save innocent lives.  Innocent, Anders?  Really?  Does he mean innocent or mage?

Eh, anyway - that could be a bit OT - but I think it is relevant to his behaviour in Alone and his seeming hypocrisy.  I don't think its really hipocrisy, just a total blindness to anything outside his narrow focus.  As the story develops that focus gets narrower and narrower.

Modifié par Avilia, 08 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[Sarielle]

Auroras wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

Lol, do you really take that big of a rivalry hit? I was pretty sure I didn't get that -- or at least, not that big. Then again I made no attempt to max friendship/rivalry with anyone my first playthough, so I didn't pay attention as much.

I'm almost positive he didn't accuse me of hating mages, because I was one and I'd have had a "wtf" moment too.

[Asdara]

Fenris and Anders aren't just stubborn and close-minded about their views on the mages, but they also hate each other. It's a little obvious - you never see them in a "friend moment" scene in which companions are talking to one another without you (ex: Varric & Aveline talking to Fenris about moving or Varric talking to Anders about Blackmarsh). They have every reason to hate each other - especially if Fenris and Anders are both possible contenders for the Champion's affection. Also - they are fire and ice.

I am not surprised at the venom between them during almost any interaction. They do not get along in party or ever anywhere.

I do think that it is telling that Fenris won't betray YOU though - when Sebastian recommends turning Merill and Anders (the mages) in as apostates to Fenris he says something like "you clear it with Hawke if you want that to happen." Unlike Anders, who blows people up and involves you if you let him, unknowningly.

[_Aine_]

Avilia wrote...

Eh, anyway - that could be a bit OT - but I think it is relevant to his behaviour in Alone and his seeming hypocrisy.  I don't think its really hipocrisy, just a total blindness to anything outside his narrow focus.  As the story develops that focus gets narrower and narrower.

I picture it as kind of a Vengeance Funnel.   The story is what comes out after being funnelled and concentrated down through the funnel/filter...and by the end of the story, most of the old Anders has been funnelled/filtered out. All that is left is this very concentrated form of Vengeance.  Anders is in there somewhere I would hope, but the kinder side is clearly not the strongest.  Feelings get in the way of retribution, so Vengeance has all but kept that side locked up near the end, if not eradicated it completely.   Actually retribution is payment for crimes committed, where vengeance is punishment in EXCESS of the crime.  So, vengeance is a fitting name I suppose. 

I still think the demon is in control most of the story.    Sadly.  

Oh, as for the OP's feeling on Anders and Fenris' sister....   I really honestly just saw it as a " OMG you big hater! You were jealous of your sister and used that hatred of her powers and your magisters to blame all magic forever!"  No matter how short-sighted he had become, to ME, at the time anyway.... it seemed more like a DING DING! I understand this now, its a sibling rivalry/fear thing.    I could be wrong, and perhaps I was wishful thinking at the time, but that is how it came across to me. 

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Auroras wrote...

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

If there was ever a moment demanding a 'Renegade Interrupt' it was that one.

And this. Oh so very much THIS. 

Modifié par shantisands, 09 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Sesshomaru47]

Auroras wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

He accused my mage of being a mage hater, well turning against my "own kind". To be honest she wasn't all that pro-mage anyway.
Just do the quest it makes killing him in the end all the more worth while. That is if you plan to kill him I guess.

[Oneiropolos]

    People are referring to Fenris and Anders as having the same sort of blindness. They don't. Fenris may hate Anders, but at ANY POINT he could have pointed Anders out. He doesn't. Nor does Fenris hate all mages. He doesn't trust them, they have to prove they're not using blood magic and that they're strong-willed enough not to fall to demons. There's several interesting conversations throughout the game in party banter that indicates my point better than I could if I wrote more:

───────
Anders: By now, you must see what an injustice the templars are.
Fenris: Must I? I see templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about her mother. Ask her who went "too far."
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.
───────
Anders: Not all mages are weak.
If Hawke is a mage:
Fenris: True. Hawke, for instance, is not weak.
Otherwise:
Fenris: Bethany, for instance, was not weak.
Anders: You specifically don't mention me.
Fenris: That's also true.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You're convincing no one else.
───────

     Fenris ends up being correct about Anders. And his words that it only takes the weak ones to cause massive destruction (as in weak-willed) are almost prophetic. Fenris is keenly aware of what mages are capable of, in a way we can't even comprehend because we have not SEEN Tevinter. We were stunned at all the blood mages in the third act.... but imagine a culture where if you want to be more than a slave (and Fenris points out how the magisters do not hesitate to enslave other, weaker mages) you are encouraged to resort to blood magic. What you see Hadrianna do to get more strength when she knows Fenris is coming... killing loyal slaves. What Fenris says to Sebastian about how he once saw Denarius drain a boy at a party to show off for other magisters. This is more than what the Circle is. No matter how bad life in the Circle is, and it IS bad under Meredith... Ser Alrik's request for tranquility was declined. By Elthina AND Meredith. Some templars do incredibly bad things in the circle, but they also threaten their victims not to tell any other templars or worse will happen. That may seem bad, but it means the templars don't want to be caught doing it. It means they do believe there are repercussions for their actions if found out. I'm not saying the circle is managed well, and I'm not making excuses for what does occur in it, I'm just questioning whether it is worse to have a society with no morals or a society that has morals but breaks them. I personally think the first is worse, and that's what Tevinter is.

     Anders is just as crazy at the end as Orsino and Meredith. For Anders, we can blame Vengeance. For Meredith, though she was never actually kind, we can point to the idol for her entirely losing it. For Orsino? I think he was likely corrupt the entire time. His letter to Quentin implies knowledge of Quentin's 'research' and I think when Orsino says he's never resorted to blood magic before that day, he means he was too cowardly to resort to blood magic. Not that he was somehow too noble.

As far as Fenris goes, people saying he's on equal level with Anders merely has to look at what Fenris actually does. Unlike Anders, Fenris has the ENTIRE GAME to turn Anders in. Even though Anders steps in front of you and tries to tear down Fenris TO YOU To undermine your relationship with Fenris, if you choose to get romantically involved with Anders after being with Fenris, Fenris never says anything nasty to Hawke about Anders. He simply tells Anders he'll kill him if he breaks Hawke's heart. And lastly, this conversation with Sebastian:

───────
Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.
Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

───────

    Fenris is not willing to hurt Hawke by turning in one of Hawke's friends. He even refers to it as a betrayal, and tells Sebastian that if Sebastian has an issue, he has to take it up with Hawke. Fenris does not like mages. But he respected Bethany. He does not like mages, but he allows a mage Hawke to prove themselves different than the mages he's always been surrounded by. He does not like mages, and he is betrayed by his sister, a mage, who wants to become Denarius's APPRENTICE. This is just more proof to Fenris that mages cannnot be noble or trusted. But Fenris stays loyal to Hawke and does not cause harm against even Anders. He might say snarky things, but he draws the line there. It isn't until the ending that Fenris can potentially see Ander's betrayal of everyone and his blatant destruction and choose to side against Hawke if Hawke chooses the side of the mages. I think Fenris even knows he's going to die doing so. Fenris watched Hawke kill an Arishok. For him, that was the battle for him to end it for himself.

    Fenris is not the same as Anders. He and Anders may be foils for each other to let you see more clearly the different perspectives, but Fenris has a line he won't cross. Vengeance blurs all the lines for Anders.

Edited to try to help with formatting so it's not quite so hard on the eyes, even though I know it still is alot of text. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 09 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[Sarielle]

Holy walls of text, Batman. You're making some good points so far but that's super hard to read.

[_Aine_]

Oneiropolos wrote...

. He and Anders may be foils for each other to let you see more clearly the different perspectives, but Fenris has a line he won't cross. Vengeance blurs all the lines for Anders.

This.  Well said. 

[Obadiah]

Auroras wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

Yup

[stobie]

Wow - if he really supports sending Fenris back into slavery, I may change utterly & stab the little twit in the back after all! You'd just have to have the darkest soul to do that, game or not. I don't think I could even test it - sending that poor guy back would be so evil.

[Plaintiff]

Deified Data wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It's not like Fenris is any less of a douche, really. You should take him and Anders along on A New Path and watch how they gang up on Merrill as she sobs over Marethari's corpse.

I think you're wrong when you say the Circle is "nothing like slavery". In practise perhaps, there are some differences, but the mentality is essentially the same: that the people suffering aren't really human, they're objects. Cullen even says as much.

Notice that when Anders makes the comaprison between the Circle and slavery, Fenris does not dispute the point, he simply says he doesn't care about mages. And in Act 3, if you side with the mages and Fenris sides with the templars, you get the option to convince him a second time to come back to your side, and depending on various factors, the line you use will vary, but one possibility is something along the tone of "I thought you were against slavery", and that will sway his opinion.

So the parallels may not be obvious to you but they are obvious to Fenris.

I'd also point out that in Act 1, Anders disapproves if you threaten to blackmail Thrask about his daughter, while Fenris is the only party member who approves, and does so purely out of hatred for mages. Anders also openly abhors blood magic, saying that giving into demons is just proving the templars right.

Yes, I admit, Fenris is more than capable of being a titanic douche. That being said, Merrill brought it all on herself. She was selfish and short-sighted - what happened to her was inevitable. It may have been "mean" to criticize her in such a position, but it doesn't mean he (and Anders) were wrong. The difference between Fenris and Anders in this scenario is that Fenris is staying true to his ideals, while Anders (an abomination) is a hypocrite.

My Warden was from the Ferelden Circle, and loved it there. It was his home. It was Anders's home. It was not slavery. It was a responsible lifestyle for responsible mages. No, it wasn't perfect, but it was a far cry from being a sex slave/enforcer for an evil Tevinter magister. The Circle =/= slavery. The Kirkwall Circle may be an extremely oppressive environment, but Anders wouldn't know anything about that. When it comes to Cullen, remember how he came by his opinions. Uldred's insurrection may not have represented the mages at their best, but it represents mages, nonetheless - an aspect of them that cannot be ignored.

When Anders supports giving the letter to Thrask, he does so as a favor to his mage daughter, not the man himself. Fenris is the same - it's all about the daughter, not the templar.

But, in the end, my point is that Fenris can be convinced to ignore his hatred of mages for the sake of freedom (or hatred of slavery - it amounts to the same thing). Anders cannot. He's firm in his hate and, by the end of the game, one wonders if he's capable of feeling anything else.

Well that's your character. He may have felt that the Ferelden Circle was his home, but Anders clearly didn't, if his seven escape attempts are anything to go by. And, playing through the Mage Origin myself I saw a lot of things wrong with the Ferelden Circle. The Harrowing was one of the biggest. I'm sorry but throwing untested mages into the Fade is just the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If the Circle exists to educate mages, why aren't they trained about the dangers of the Fade prior? Not only that, but those who pass are instructed to keep the test a secret, so that nobody has any chance of preparing themselves? They fail to educate their charges on how to navigate the Fade or protect themselves from demons, and then act surprised when they fail? And what of mages they deem "too weak" to take the test? They just make them Tranquil, an act that I find personally reprehensible. It's said that some mages volunteer for it but I can't imagine any would if they weren't indoctrinated to hate themselves so much, and were instead empowered to see their abilites as a gift, to see its potential for good.

Wynne may seem satisfied with life in the Circle, but party banter indicates that it has done her wrong as well. What justification is there for taking her child from her? They are forbidden from marriage, from parenthood, from their families, forbidden from loving, forbidden from leaving. Forbidden, in fact, from almost everything that is good and worthwhile about the human experience. They are locked up as children and told they are cursed, that they deserve to be feared and hated just for being what they are, that a single step out of bounds could spell death for them. It is no surprise to me that the Ferelden Circle turns out mages like Anders. Indeed, I find it more surprising that they turn out any well-adjusted individuals at all. Obviously there are plenty of mages in Ferelden who feel the same way, or Uldred would never have been able to garner the support to take the tower in the first place.

But the concept of the Circle is not the problem per say. It's that it is overseen by the Chantry, which is a clearly biased institution. The Circle does not exist for the good of mages, as it should. Rather, it exists to satisfy the ignorant masses who fear what they do not understand. The mages live under nothing less than polite tyranny, they are treated as less than human and there is not an adequate system in place to prevent them from being abused. The Ferelden Circle could very easily be the Kirkwall Circle, if Meredith were in charge. The mages live entirely at the mercy of the templars, the Ferelden Circle is lucky that it got Greagoir as Knight-Commander.

The most damning piece of evidence is that the games actually show you that the Circle is not needed. Morrigan has her issues, but she's not an abomination. Flemeth may not be any good at raising kids in general, but she sure knows how to teach a mage. Bethany and mage-Hawke are also competent and clearly in control of themselves, and they didn't need the Circle either. The Dalish give their mages positions of incredible responsibility and not one of them that we've seen has turned into an abomination ever. Even Merrill, who is a blood mage, has never harmed anyone except in self defense. Why? Because the Dalish treat their mages with at least a basic level of respect and they are taught to embrace their powers for the ways in which they could help people.

If the Circle is so great, how come the vast majority of blood mages and abominations we encounter are from it?

[Oneiropolos]

You say that Bethany and presumably a mage!Hawke did just as well not being in the circle, except Bethany explains that her father WAS in the circle and passed that teaching to her. And if you have Carver, you learn their father escaped due to the help of a Templar. Which means that their father had the -teachings- from the circle to help govern himself, and that's what he taught himself. They didn't just traipse about with non-mage parents who had no idea how to handle it.

Though we do have to remember, Kirkwall is a much more dangerous area because of how thin the veil is. Demons can tempt much more easily in Kirkwall than elsewhere.

[highcastle]

Anders and Fenris simply have two very big, glaring blind-spots and both of them happen to fall in the other's (and wow did that sound dirty; I've been reading too much kinkmeme, apparently). To be fair, there are plenty of times Fenris calls Merrill and Anders "monsters," too. Anders just points out that he's not Fenris' friend at this time. Fenris' has pretty much done the same.

Honestly, this line never really concerns me, because I'm always too busy pointing out that Fenris is blaming magic again when I (a mage) just saved his life. Again. They're both hypocrites, you see. Their hypocrisy is different is all. And I'll take mine blond, a bit crazy, with the saddest eyes you ever did see.

[stobie]

My Warden Mage felt trapped in the Circle, and freed it at the end. (I see *that* didn't last...) But blowing up an old lady & some people presumably praying (like the guy trying to get over the blooming rose services) - that wouldn't be the path to betterment. I guess I thought of Anders as very one-sided & justifiably sympathetic to what he knows. But being willing to send Fenris back to an evil master - that sheds a whole new light on him. I would like to think my mage would view Fenris with extra sympathy because she'd liken her own early captivity with his, and that empathy would reach beyond class/race/etc. Fenris can be convinced of this, but Anders is pretty far gone. Sad - I really liked the Awakening Justice! We tend to blame him, but it's Anders's anger that corrupted him - the marriage from hell, I guess.


eta:  Oh, & having a mage-Fenris romance adds a nice degree of tension.  My rogue-Fenris is dull in comparison. I don't view them as opposites, though. (believing that 'the only thing opposites attracts is divorce,'  via John Cleese)  I just thought she had to prove herself a little bit more, and that he's probably rather pleased to have her as His Own - and probably also respects her more for being fair and in command of her own innate power.  

Modifié par stobie, 09 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[Plaintiff]

Oneiropolos wrote...

You say that Bethany and presumably a mage!Hawke did just as well not being in the circle, except Bethany explains that her father WAS in the circle and passed that teaching to her. And if you have Carver, you learn their father escaped due to the help of a Templar. Which means that their father had the -teachings- from the circle to help govern himself, and that's what he taught himself. They didn't just traipse about with non-mage parents who had no idea how to handle it.

Though we do have to remember, Kirkwall is a much more dangerous area because of how thin the veil is. Demons can tempt much more easily in Kirkwall than elsewhere.

And? Even Anders himself says that the Circle is usually the only decent education a mage can get. But that's only because mages are a) rare and by and large forbidden from leaving the Circle. And that fact doesn't really make the Circle any less ****ed-up in various fundemental aspects.

I think if Circle mages were allowed to strike out on their own and make themselves available as private tutors, or even found their own magic schools, then the actual Circle itself would soon be obsolete. But the Chantry will never allow that to happen. For all the talk of benevolence, it will never accept a world where it is in anything less than complete control of everything. The only way to wrest any power from it is through violence.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 avril 2011 - 02:45 .

[stobie]

Thinking Anders a complete jerk over this, however, doesn't make the Chantry any better. There's a line the Old Cleric can say, if you point out that the hero of Ferelden defeated the blight, not
the Maker,' and she'll say something like, "The Maker can work EVEN through an elf.. or mage, or whatever you are..." Scabby old bat! I was particularly annoyed when she gave her 'even an elf' speech, after my nice boy City Elf did all this good! Grrrr.... She, I don't care about. But being willing to send a comrade-in-arms, even if you don't get along with him, into slavery - that's low, & sick, especially after Fenris refuses to agree with Sebastian. (who I also despise)


Another point:  If you are vile enough to send Fenris back, I believe you get a letter from his owner. (this, no doubt, while your soul rots in an eternity of evil energy...)   Basically, it says Fenris is back to his old, docile self now that he's had his memory erased.  (lucky in one way, only, in that he won't remember the bit of potting soil champion who did it...) -  But isn't that pretty much being made Tranquil?    Ugh... I may have to go off Anders, after all. I am *not* getting his foul septic system ingredients, anyway!

Modifié par stobie, 09 avril 2011 - 03:14 .

[Obadiah]

I don't think DA2 did the conflict between Mages and Templars justice. Really, the only responsible mage turns out to be Bethany (if she survives). Every mage you speak to either turns out to be Blood Mage or is just waiting to turn into an abomination. If being a slave to magisters didn't bais Fenris completely against mages, hanging with Hawke certainly did.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Auroras]

Sarielle wrote...

Auroras wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

Lol, do you really take that big of a rivalry hit? I was pretty sure I didn't get that -- or at least, not that big. Then again I made no attempt to max friendship/rivalry with anyone my first playthough, so I didn't pay attention as much.

I'm almost positive he didn't accuse me of hating mages, because I was one and I'd have had a "wtf" moment too.

Not of hating mages, per se, but of my support of mages only being talk, blah blah blah. D:

[Sarielle]

Auroras wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Auroras wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

He's a ****** and a hypocrite that whines if you don't do whatever he wants not really surprising.

This.

He complained and handed me a whopping +30 rivalry, just because I refused to help him distract the Grand Cleric. It just seemed suspicious. During his pity fest, he accused me of hating mages. I was playing as a mage.

I wish there was a slap Anders mod. 

Lol, do you really take that big of a rivalry hit? I was pretty sure I didn't get that -- or at least, not that big. Then again I made no attempt to max friendship/rivalry with anyone my first playthough, so I didn't pay attention as much.

I'm almost positive he didn't accuse me of hating mages, because I was one and I'd have had a "wtf" moment too.

Not of hating mages, per se, but of my support of mages only being talk, blah blah blah. D:

Well, I may have also already had him at max friendship. I hear you don't lose points once you get them to one extreme or the other, and I hadn't thought about that.

But yeah, he got a little cranky with me, too.