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[Deified Data]

Rifneno wrote...

Pretty flimsy rationale for Fenris' betrayal.  If I save someone from a bunch of slavehunters and then he tries to kill me because I refuse to be part of genocide, that is betrayal.  PERIOD.  I didn't try to defend Anders endorsing selling Fenris back to slavery. I don't see why Fenris fans can't admit a wrong he does.

Let's get this thread back on track, please. This isn't about Anders versus Fenris - if you want to discuss Fenris's shortcomings, make your own thread and I'll participate. This is about justifying Anders's comments in "Alone", and their implications for his character.

[Deified Data]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

stobie wrote...

I don't expect blind loyalty. I expect reasonable, earned loyalty.

I expect people I saved from life as a slave to a sadistic blood mage to not try to kill me.

The problem is when it comes to magic (and you see this very much if you Rivalmance him), Fenris is simply not rational.  It's understandable why that would be so, but it still is what it is.  It would probably take decades (and probably never) for Fenris to soften his attitude any.  For Fenris the only good mage is a dead one.  You CAN soften that with regard to Bethany and/or yourself, but he'll use your strength (or hers) as evidence that the other mages can't be trusted.

He's just not rational on this topic.  He can't be.  His hate runs too deep.

-Polaris

I'm not saying it doesn't make some sense in the story, I just mean that the notion Anders betrays you and Fenris never would, is ludicrous.

The big difference everyone here is getting at is that Fenris's loyalty can be earned while Anders's cannot. If loyal, Fenris is capable of putting his bias aside for Hawke. Anders is not capable of that same loyalty, as his only loyalty lies in his cause.

[stobie]

Anders tricks and manipulates you even if he's at max approval. Fenris and the others do not. If you've earned their trust, you have their trust. They're not arguably using you to further their secretive ends. They have their own agendas, 'get a ship,' 'make a mirror for no obvious reason,' etc, but those things are pretty benign in comparison to, 'blow up a building killing bystanders & old women and start a war.'

I would not expect someone to stay loyal to me because I freed him from a sadistic mage if I am now taking the side of MORE sadistic mages. (as the First Enchanter turns out to be) Why would I be that extra-special? I haven't earned his trust - and I can't say, "Trust me" to someone I haven't previously convinced.

I haven't done the Templar side - I don't see myself agreeing to kill everyone because a crazy lady said so, and I've always had everyone maxed at this point. (except Isabella once, who wasn't there) But if I fail to earn their trust, that's *my* fault, not theirs.

Anyone with an agenda will turn on you, if you haven't earned otherwise. If Isabella has stayed into Act 3, you've already earned hers, & Varrick is open-minded anyway. (or he lacks deep convictions, either way) Anders will do what he does, and start a war, no matter what, even if he can be persuaded to fight the mages. (and that's just flaky at that point) This is bugged, I guess, but supposedly, he will.

[Camenae]

It's true. I find it it disheartening that Anders couldn't make ANY exceptions, whatsoever, even for the woman/man he professes to LOVE. It makes zero difference if you're friend, rival, or lover, he still says "There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill", leaving the ominous omission of "...EXCEPT YOU" painfully, painfully obvious.

That's when my Hawke realized that she's dating a man who doesn't think she's special because he treats her no differently than people who are just friends.

[stobie]

Ugh! Really? When does he say that? (this is clearly why I couldn't get far with an Anders-romance!)

[Deified Data]

stobie wrote...

 Anders will do what he does, and start a war, no matter what, even if he can be persuaded to fight the mages. (and that's just flaky at that point) This is bugged, I guess, but supposedly, he will.

Seriously, Bioware, strike this from the game as though it were never there. DAII would be better for it. I'm glad it's glitched. I hope it stays that way. Anders doesn't deserve an easy-out for his crimes. He chose his side, and the player should have to deal with the consequences.

[Deztyn]

But the whole point is that if you've rivalmanced him and convinced him he was wrong beforehand it's NOT Anders, it's Justice/Vengeance using Anders.

Edit: And that doesn't make things easy. The opposite actually, friend Anders and Justice are of one mind and feel perfectly justified in their actions. Rivalmance Anders really has to live with the consequences.

Modifié par Deztyn, 09 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[Camenae]

stobie wrote...

Ugh! Really? When does he say that? (this is clearly why I couldn't get far with an Anders-romance!)

It's the Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest for Anders. 

 at 1:04

When he said "There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free" I was waiting for a "except you" or even a "except MAYBE you."  But nope.  Nothing.  : (  So the only difference between how he treats you and, say, Varric, is that he has sex with you.  Now tell me I shouldn't feel used.

[Rifneno]

stobie wrote...

Anders tricks and manipulates you even if he's at max approval. Fenris and the others do not.

Err, okay.  And when did manipulation become the same thing as attempting to kill?  Fenris didn't lie, he came swinging with a sword *I* gave him.

I haven't done the Templar side - I don't see myself agreeing to kill everyone because a crazy lady said so, and I've always had everyone maxed at this point. (except Isabella once, who wasn't there) But if I fail to earn their trust, that's *my* fault, not theirs.

Oh this is fun.  Okay then: You haven't earned Anders' trust.  Your bad.

Camenae wrote...

It's true. I find it it disheartening that Anders couldn't make ANY exceptions, whatsoever, even for the woman/man he professes to LOVE. It makes zero difference if you're friend, rival, or lover, he still says "There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill", leaving the ominous omission of "...EXCEPT YOU" painfully, painfully obvious.

That's when my Hawke realized that she's dating a man who doesn't think she's special because he treats her no differently than people who are just friends.

I thought that part was pretty bad at first too.  But people generally get away with choosing religion over a lover, so why can't they choose a cause?  He was pretty tactless with that one line, but I wouldn't say he treats a romanced Hawke the same as a friend.  Having gone through pro-mage on both romance and friend, he definitely treats Hawke as he should on both counts.

[stobie]

But I have earned Anders's trust, and that changes nothing. It doesn't make much sense that he'd finally shift to the Templars, but maybe the way it happens works?

[stobie]

Camenae wrote...

stobie wrote...

Ugh! Really? When does he say that? (this is clearly why I couldn't get far with an Anders-romance!)

It's the Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest for Anders. 

 at 1:04

When he said "There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free" I was waiting for a "except you" or even a "except MAYBE you."  But nope.  Nothing.  : (  So the only difference between how he treats you and, say, Varric, is that he has sex with you.  Now tell me I shouldn't feel used.

Oh... that is interesting.  So it really is Vengeance?   That brings up some issues if you're his lover, though - assuming you go off together, are you going off with Anders or Prime-Vengeance? 

[RavenB]

I think that saying Anders actions are definitely betrayal is making a pretty big assumption about why he does what he does. He says he's withholding the information to protect you. Is he lying still? Maybe, but we don't know if he is or not. I think the situation is more complicated than simply calling it betrayal. A person not doing exactly what you want of them in hindsight is not necessarily betrayal.

[Camenae]

stobie wrote...

Oh... that is interesting.  So it really is Vengeance?   That brings up some issues if you're his lover, though - assuming you go off together, are you going off with Anders or Prime-Vengeance? 

Well, that's the thing, I don't know if it was Vengeance who says that or not.  Later in the conversation, Vengeance does take over directly, but when Anders said that, he's still Anders, or appeared to be anyway.

I went off with Anders in the end to get the romance-completion achievement, but if I really were faced with a choice like that I probably would not go off with him.  Who knows what Vengeance would do?  What if I said something wrong like that mage girl Ella did, and Anders lost control and Vengeance decided to strangle me in my sleep or something? 

[Deified Data]

stobie wrote...

But I have earned Anders's trust, and that changes nothing. It doesn't make much sense that he'd finally shift to the Templars, but maybe the way it happens works?

Unless Vengeance suddenly up and quits Anders's body, I can't imagine any way this scene could logically play out. Anders would just be slain by the templars after killing Meredith, anyways.

[Ryzaki]

Camenae wrote...

stobie wrote...

Ugh! Really? When does he say that? (this is clearly why I couldn't get far with an Anders-romance!)

It's the Act 3 Questioning Beliefs quest for Anders. 

 at 1:04

When he said "There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free" I was waiting for a "except you" or even a "except MAYBE you."  But nope.  Nothing.  : (  So the only difference between how he treats you and, say, Varric, is that he has sex with you.  Now tell me I shouldn't feel used.

That's from the bugged rivalrymance first off. 

And sure I understand you feeing used but at that point he's so twisted by Vengeance he's seeing no other way out. 

God I can't wait for the rivalrymance to stop being bugged. He has dialogue where he tells you what he did was wrong and he's gonna try to undo it. Alas because of the bug it fails to trigger for theromance (still triggers fine on the non-romantic rivalry path but the Last Straw dialogue bugs out). 

It's not as simple as "Anders will always betray you because of his cause.". 

Anders will always betray you though no doubt about that. Sometimes because of his cause, and other times because he was to weak. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 avril 2011 - 06:54 .

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

What if I said something wrong like that mage girl Ella did, and Anders lost control and Vengeance decided to strangle me in my sleep or something? 

You mean you don't keep the murder knife under your pillow?

[stobie]

I think having Justice leave would be interesting. Anders would have to face what he's done, with a clear mind. I'd be interested in seeing that - I really think that the scars people carry longest and deepest are those they've inflicted on others. (As with Fenris & the Fog Warriors) Anders hasn't reached that point.

I don't think I'd want to be tied to a man with 2 brains, anyway. Perhaps this is why I couldn't get far. (I think I had the achievement having sent my boy-warrior through first, & I figured he'd be happy forever after with Merrill.)

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

Camenae wrote...

What if I said something wrong like that mage girl Ella did, and Anders lost control and Vengeance decided to strangle me in my sleep or something? 

You mean you don't keep the murder knife under your pillow?

I didn't think Hawke got that kinky...

...yet.

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...
I went off with Anders in the end to get the romance-completion achievement, but if I really were faced with a choice like that I probably would not go off with him.  Who knows what Vengeance would do?  What if I said something wrong like that mage girl Ella did, and Anders lost control and Vengeance decided to strangle me in my sleep or something?  

Well yeah, in real life he'd be a pretty stupid choice to spend your life with.  But how many of the other romance options are?  Merrill's diamond-thick plot armor is the only reason she hasn't been possessed 10 times over.  Isabela's last husband was murdered.  By her lover.  Fenris isn't quite as dangerous just to be around, but the man is irreversably damaged mentally.

Deified Data wrote...
Unless Vengeance suddenly up and quits Anders's body, I can't imagine any way this scene could logically play out. Anders would just be slain by the templars after killing Meredith, anyways.

Exactly.  Justice can ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL in the middle of conversations with Hawke, but he's on a coffee break while Anders not just abandons his cause but joins the enemy?  Whatever.

The Angry One wrote...

You mean you don't keep the murder knife under your pillow?

Most people don't have as many death threats against them as you do, TAO.  

Anyway, I think the Anders romance is more along the tragedy theme of DA2.  He and Hawke both tried, tried their damnedest, but Justice's darkness cannot be overcome.  This is especially true if you're romancing him and choose to kill him.  Instead of "LAWL I'll be a maryr yay me!" he seems like he's holding back tears as he tells her he knows and how thankful he is for how great the past she made the past few years.  It fits in so well I wondered if the fact Anders is the only one who actively pursues Hawke upon recruitment is because they wanted to push the player towards the Anders romance.  Losing their family and then finally having to be executioner to their own significant other fits right in with the whole zombie mom mentality.

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...

******, ******, ******. None of the other companions actually stop Hawke from handing Fenris over. They make their "mad face" then let it happen. They're no better.

I lol'd way harder at this than I should've. 

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

******, ******, ******. None of the other companions actually stop Hawke from handing Fenris over. They make their "mad face" then let it happen. They're no better.

I lol'd way harder at this than I should've. 

Well I was aiming for lulz. So score one for me!