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[Torax]

TJPags wrote...

Torax wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

[Quite possible.  But are we told this anywhere?

Because, my thinking is, if this is the case - that Ferelden harbors mages whether you ask for the mage boon or not - that people who, for whatever reason, don't have King Alistair in their games, may be in for quite a shock in DA3.  Are we given any reason by Alsitair as to why he's doing this?

Yes. King Alistair says openly and forthrightly that he doesn't view mages as something to be feared in the same way that the Chantry does, and it's very clear that he's facing an incipit war with Orlais just a handful of years after the blight and Alistair is desperate for any help he can get.  Also (this is not specifically stated but obvious to those that played DAO), Alistair's experiences with magic have been almost universally good and his experiences with the Chantry/Templars almost univerally....problematic shall we say.  Add to that, there is considerably mistrust and even hatred towards Orlais, and the Chantry was openly pro-Orlais for a bit too long during the last occupation.

I easily see Fereldan going "Church of England" on the Divine with Alistair annointing his own Grand Cleric of Denerium (or even just gaining the allegaince of the current Grand Cleric of Denerium).  Given that Andraste was born in Denerum, that would be a cataclysmic blow to the Chantry.

-Polaris

Interesting.  I may need to play through a game with him as King just to explore this - no matter how much that thought disgusts me.

I am concerned about this being a possibly big issue in future games, though.  Unless it's explored it some DLC, as Velentia suggested, anyone who doesn't have a King Alistair game is completely out of the loop on this.

If they don't have one they can just use a default one with King Alistair. Problem solved. Each one has a different Alistair result. King, Grey Warden and then a Drunk.

True.

My point is, though, that UNLESS you have Alistair as King, you don't get any of this information in the game.  I certainly didn't in my Drunkistair game.

IF this is going to be an important point, I'd think it would be mentioned in ANY game, not just those where Alistair is king.  After all, going by what Polaris said - and I agree with his opinion regarding Alistairs view of mages - it's almost tied to an Alistair thing.  What if I made Anora Queen (as I did)?  Would she have the same warm and fuzzy feeling toward mages?

Alistair protecting a couple mages gives you information in the game? Not really. It's more a reference that "it's much nicer in Fereldon, though we maybe waring soon." That is about it. I don't count that as missing out.

[TheBlackBaron]

TJPags wrote...
IF this is going to be an important point, I'd think it would be mentioned in ANY game, not just those where Alistair is king.  After all, going by what Polaris said - and I agree with his opinion regarding Alistairs view of mages - it's almost tied to an Alistair thing.  What if I made Anora Queen (as I did)?  Would she have the same warm and fuzzy feeling toward mages?

Queen Anora is fairly easy - rather than from Alistair's more emotional outlook on it (I'm not afraid of mages and my Chantry experiences suck), Anora is probably looking it from a logical, political standpoint. With Orlais making noise about retaking Ferelden, having a whole lot of mages fighting for Ferelden would be extremely useful. Moreover, she doubtless gained a lot of her opinions from Loghain, and he was no fan of the Chantry because their hierarchy is based in Orlais and distrusted from for their support of the Orlesian occupation. 

[RavenB]

Anora seems very likely to side against the Chantry because of it's strong ties to Orlais. We all know daddy hated Orlais and Ferelden is also supposedly on souring terms with them. I would think Anora would be less likely to try as hard in talks with the empress than Alistair. Templars in Ferelden could easy be taken as an Orlesian threat, the way Loghain saw wardens.

I don't think the line is really necessary, though. I wouldn't think it were game damaging if you didn't hear it in your play through. It doesn't effect the events of II in a way we can reasonably understand. It's really only a brief glimpse to possible upcoming conflicts, if anything. Those who chose Anora not getting it doesn't seem like a major game issue since the importance is limited in the game it's presented.

[Raiil]

RavenB wrote...

Anora seems very likely to side against the Chantry because of it's strong ties to Orlais. We all know daddy hated Orlais and Ferelden is also supposedly on souring terms with them. I would think Anora would be less likely to try as hard in talks with the empress than Alistair. Templars in Ferelden could easy be taken as an Orlesian threat, the way Loghain saw wardens.

I don't think the line is really necessary, though. I wouldn't think it were game damaging if you didn't hear it in your play through. It doesn't effect the events of II in a way we can reasonably understand. It's really only a brief glimpse to possible upcoming conflicts, if anything. Those who chose Anora not getting it doesn't seem like a major game issue since the importance is limited in the game it's presented.

It's not necessary, no, and it could easily be handled by promo trailers, but to be honest, I would love if Bioware mentioned it for everyone. It's not a bother for me because my canon playthroughs both have Amells that kinged Alistair (one chancellor/mistress, one bromanced who sacrificed himself to save his best friends Alistair and Zevran), but I can totally understand why it would be palatable in for other users.


I feel the same way about Meredith, actually. I learned about the tragic aspect of her past via the forums and I wish I could have learned it in game. Necessary? No, but it would be nice.

[IanPolaris]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Queen Anora is fairly easy - rather than from Alistair's more emotional outlook on it (I'm not afraid of mages and my Chantry experiences suck), Anora is probably looking it from a logical, political standpoint. With Orlais making noise about retaking Ferelden, having a whole lot of mages fighting for Ferelden would be extremely useful. Moreover, she doubtless gained a lot of her opinions from Loghain, and he was no fan of the Chantry because their hierarchy is based in Orlais and distrusted from for their support of the Orlesian occupation. 

Not just that, but Anora is her father's daughter to her toenails, and Loghain (whever else he was) had largely the same view towards magic and mages as Alistair ironically enough.  It was not something to be feared but a useful tool (and useful people) to be respected.  Also like Alistair, Gen Loghains' opinion and reationship with the pro-Orlais Chantry during the occupation was.....problematic.  Loghain had no problem worthing with Uldred (an open and radical Libertarian) and had no problems with a free circle (as long as it answered to him which I am sure a would-be First Enchanter Uldred promised would happen).  We also see he has no problem using apostates and even malificar if needed.

-Polaris

[RavenB]

Valentia X wrote...

RavenB wrote...

Anora seems very likely to side against the Chantry because of it's strong ties to Orlais. We all know daddy hated Orlais and Ferelden is also supposedly on souring terms with them. I would think Anora would be less likely to try as hard in talks with the empress than Alistair. Templars in Ferelden could easy be taken as an Orlesian threat, the way Loghain saw wardens.

I don't think the line is really necessary, though. I wouldn't think it were game damaging if you didn't hear it in your play through. It doesn't effect the events of II in a way we can reasonably understand. It's really only a brief glimpse to possible upcoming conflicts, if anything. Those who chose Anora not getting it doesn't seem like a major game issue since the importance is limited in the game it's presented.

It's not necessary, no, and it could easily be handled by promo trailers, but to be honest, I would love if Bioware mentioned it for everyone. It's not a bother for me because my canon playthroughs both have Amells that kinged Alistair (one chancellor/mistress, one bromanced who sacrificed himself to save his best friends Alistair and Zevran), but I can totally understand why it would be palatable in for other users.


I feel the same way about Meredith, actually. I learned about the tragic aspect of her past via the forums and I wish I could have learned it in game. Necessary? No, but it would be nice.

I agree it would be nice. I guess they want to incourage multiple playthroughs, but I can relate that some of the choices you'd have to make to see this information aren't easy for people. Personally, I'd never want to put Anora on the throne. I really disliked her and Alistair is one of my favorite characters. So, if it would have been Anora who was the only one showing up and giving information, I would have been disappointed.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have, just that it's not really evidence that this wasn't planned to effect future content in light of it not being viewable by everyone.

[TJPags]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

TJPags wrote...
IF this is going to be an important point, I'd think it would be mentioned in ANY game, not just those where Alistair is king.  After all, going by what Polaris said - and I agree with his opinion regarding Alistairs view of mages - it's almost tied to an Alistair thing.  What if I made Anora Queen (as I did)?  Would she have the same warm and fuzzy feeling toward mages?

Queen Anora is fairly easy - rather than from Alistair's more emotional outlook on it (I'm not afraid of mages and my Chantry experiences suck), Anora is probably looking it from a logical, political standpoint. With Orlais making noise about retaking Ferelden, having a whole lot of mages fighting for Ferelden would be extremely useful. Moreover, she doubtless gained a lot of her opinions from Loghain, and he was no fan of the Chantry because their hierarchy is based in Orlais and distrusted from for their support of the Orlesian occupation. 

Actually, I'm not sure if she has those same opinions about Orlais as her father.  Remember, she did confront him during DAO, asking why they couldn't let Orlesian troops into Ferelden to help with the Blight.

I agree she seems practical, but is it pactical to go against the Chantry on the issue of mages?  I'm not sure she has any reason to take that stand.

[RavenB]

I think it seems extremely practical to go against the Chantry on the issue of mages, for Ferelden. If they're in strained relations with Orlais, then templars are a much riskier bet to have filling their nation than mages, as the templars answer to the Chantry, which is embroiled in Orlesian politics.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

I agree she seems practical, but is it pactical to go against the Chantry on the issue of mages?  I'm not sure she has any reason to take that stand.

If she believes that the Chantry is in Orlais' back pocket the say her father did (and that seems likely given how close the two were), then yes.  Rational: The Chantry is going to be my enemy (or at best a hostile neutral) anyway when Orlais tries to reconquer me, so why not get a group of people that I know are going to be completely loyal to me from sheer gratitude AND give me enough power even after the blight so I might be able to face the Chevaliers on something approaching equal footing.  Enter the Royal Fereldan Apostate Corps.

-Polaris

[Raiil]

TJPags wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

TJPags wrote...
IF this is going to be an important point, I'd think it would be mentioned in ANY game, not just those where Alistair is king.  After all, going by what Polaris said - and I agree with his opinion regarding Alistairs view of mages - it's almost tied to an Alistair thing.  What if I made Anora Queen (as I did)?  Would she have the same warm and fuzzy feeling toward mages?

Queen Anora is fairly easy - rather than from Alistair's more emotional outlook on it (I'm not afraid of mages and my Chantry experiences suck), Anora is probably looking it from a logical, political standpoint. With Orlais making noise about retaking Ferelden, having a whole lot of mages fighting for Ferelden would be extremely useful. Moreover, she doubtless gained a lot of her opinions from Loghain, and he was no fan of the Chantry because their hierarchy is based in Orlais and distrusted from for their support of the Orlesian occupation. 

Actually, I'm not sure if she has those same opinions about Orlais as her father.  Remember, she did confront him during DAO, asking why they couldn't let Orlesian troops into Ferelden to help with the Blight.

I agree she seems practical, but is it pactical to go against the Chantry on the issue of mages?  I'm not sure she has any reason to take that stand.

That depends. Orlais and the Chantry are tightly tied. The Chantry all but blessed Orlais's steamrolling of Ferelden during the occupation. If she so much as sniffs the idea that the Chantry might try that again, I can easily see Anora basically pulling an 'Oh hell no,' pulling the emergency brake, and speeding Ferelden towards apostate land.

Ferelden > The Chantry. Anora is brilliant and will do what it takes to keep the country she loves free. I don't see how she'd make an exception for an institution that presumes to meddle in such mortal affairs of state that they shouldn't have anything to do with.

[_Aine_]

Seems to me that it really *isn`t* on the brink of war, just everyone *acting* like it so is what makes it head that way.

Reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about a person who hears from a psychic that they will die a certain way. Their whole life they speed away from anything that reminds them of these circumstances. Of course, one day, in their haste to run from their destiny at all costs, they CREATE the very circumstances they try to avoid.

Someone, is the mastermind it seems. But to what end.

[Octan92]

I'm curious to see how the qunari play into this. Would the Chantry ever consider an alliance such as this? The Chantry is lacking in firepower and qunari certainly bear no love for mages. Or will the qunari sit back and wait while the Chantry and the mages destroy each other then try to conquer Thedas again.

[IanPolaris]

Octan92 wrote...

I'm curious to see how the qunari play into this. Would the Chantry ever consider an alliance such as this? The Chantry is lacking in firepower and qunari certainly bear no love for mages. Or will the qunari sit back and wait while the Chantry and the mages destroy each other then try to conquer Thedas again.

The Qunari would never go for it.  The Qunari are the most powerful people in Thedas because they are right and everyone else is either wrong or confused (or both).  They are more self-certain than even the Tevinter magisters.  There is no way they'd ally with a bunch of bas when in their mind they don't have to, and I gather that most Qunari view the Chantry with extremely deep contempt even for Bas.

The only people the Qunari might ally with are those they consider to be Basalit-An and only then if it serves the rigidly defind purpose of the Qun.  The only people that seem to fit that description would be the Grey Wardens.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 avril 2011 - 03:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Octan92 wrote...

I'm curious to see how the qunari play into this. Would the Chantry ever consider an alliance such as this? The Chantry is lacking in firepower and qunari certainly bear no love for mages. Or will the qunari sit back and wait while the Chantry and the mages destroy each other then try to conquer Thedas again.

Why would the Qunari side with the Chantry when, in their own mind, it and Thedas in general are proving how dysfunctional they are?

I wager they'd sit back a bit, wait till people suffer, then come in as the bringers of "certainty" and order.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[Octan92]

The Chantry did seem to try to get in the qunari's good graces through by attempting to return the relic.

[IanPolaris]

Octan92 wrote...

The Chantry did seem to try to get in the qunari's good graces through by attempting to return the relic.

No, it was my understanding that Orlais did.  The Chantry seems neutral at best (Elthina) and openly hostile at worst (Petrice) to the Qunari.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

The Chantry or Orlais? Regardless, the attempt failed, because Isabella stole it from them(not the Qunari). And they didn't even bother to try to get back.

[JedTed]

What i don't understand is Varric mentions in the epilogue that the Templars have started to rebel aswell. Aren't the Templars sworn to serve the Chantry? Why would they rebel?

[Chuvvy]

Mages rebelled against the Templars. Templars rebelled against the Chantry. It's sort of bloody three way. Or a circle jerk. HA!

[IanPolaris]

JedTed wrote...

What i don't understand is Varric mentions in the epilogue that the Templars have started to rebel aswell. Aren't the Templars sworn to serve the Chantry? Why would they rebel?

The Templars didn't always work for the Chantry.  For the first couple of centuries after Andraste's death, they were a militant sect of Andrastians called the "Inquisitors" and fought a self-declared holy war against non-believers and 'heretics' against the faith.

Sounds like they've returned to their ancient form.

-Polaris

[LadyBri]

IanPolaris wrote...

JedTed wrote...

What i don't understand is Varric mentions in the epilogue that the Templars have started to rebel aswell. Aren't the Templars sworn to serve the Chantry? Why would they rebel?

The Templars didn't always work for the Chantry.  For the first couple of centuries after Andraste's death, they were a militant sect of Andrastians called the "Inquisitors" and fought a self-declared holy war against non-believers and 'heretics' against the faith.

Sounds like they've returned to their ancient form.

-Polaris

Also, it's very possible that there are more templars like Thrask and even to some extent Cullen who know enough good mages that they are willing to go against the Chantry.

[TheBlackBaron]

LadyBri wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

JedTed wrote...

What i don't understand is Varric mentions in the epilogue that the Templars have started to rebel aswell. Aren't the Templars sworn to serve the Chantry? Why would they rebel?

The Templars didn't always work for the Chantry.  For the first couple of centuries after Andraste's death, they were a militant sect of Andrastians called the "Inquisitors" and fought a self-declared holy war against non-believers and 'heretics' against the faith.

Sounds like they've returned to their ancient form.

-Polaris

Also, it's very possible that there are more templars like Thrask and even to some extent Cullen who know enough good mages that they are willing to go against the Chantry.

It's my understanding that the Templars breaking away are being led by types such as Alrik, who have decided that in the wake of the mage rebellions to break off from the Chantry and attempt an exterminatus. 

Cullen and Thrask seem like the types who wouldn't break away from the Chantry; given that Cassandra and Leliana are trying to find people who can "put it back together again", the Chantry seems to want everything brought back under control without annihiliating their entire martial force (especially with another qunari invasion on the horizon). 

[Esbatty]

Flemeth just needs to get a new "hero" to come about to finish off the Chantry in Val Royeaux and all that political and religious clout is fractured and left to the Chantries and Andrastrian followers. No more threat of Divine Marches, no ability to summon hordes of Circle Mages to defend against the Qunari, and the bulk of the Templars are chasing Apostates all over. Then its just left to the Magisters and the Qunari to fight over who gets to sweep in and start taking over the joint.

...

Hmm, now that I think about it, a power vaccuum could allow the Grey Wardens to take up more of a prominent role.

Modifié par Esbatty, 09 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[mesmerizedish]

The world is on the brink of war because no one can decide whether the Warden or the Champion is sexier.

[IanPolaris]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The world is on the brink of war because no one can decide whether the Warden or the Champion is sexier.

Isabella and Zev both volunteer to put that question to the test....and of course multiple trials may be needed

-Polaris